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Why is minstrels gear still in the game?


Shiyo.3578

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11 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

I think its debatable how skillbased WvW is when most fights are desided by builds/compositions to the degree we have now. Heres a showcase of your skill. Some guys basically random dodging over the map, facerolling everything that has less support.

 

 

The problem is that Anet nerfed dmg across the board but didn't look at the sustain overall. Holo/necro/Rev/Guard(DHs)/ele Ganksquads everywhere.  

Edited by Grebcol.5984
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29 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

The problem is that Anet nerfed dmg across the board but didn't look at the sustain overall. Holo/necro/Rev/Guard(DHs)/ele Ganksquads everywhere.  


Why do people keep saying this? Protection got like a 50% Nerf across the board. Green numbers got reduced by 50% in most cases compared to damages 33% nerf. The only imbalance (arguable) that didn't get nerfed is in condi removal, but condi application generally didn't get nerfed either, just the durations or stacks.

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12 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

I think its debatable how skillbased WvW is when most fights are desided by builds/compositions to the degree we have now. Heres a showcase of your skill. Some guys basically random dodging over the map, facerolling everything that has less support.

 

3 fb, renegade, tempest. """"""""""""""roaming"""""""""""""""""""""""

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On 12/15/2021 at 4:37 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You've used the terms "effective HP" and "Damage" interchangeably within the same context on the same paragraph.  

Quote

  I'm better off doing 190% more damage than I am living 60% longer

Both your quotes. Notice "living 60% longer" is treating it like effective HP when it is not. That's only true until you cast your heal or receive a heal. Then it's effectively healing 40% more (because you took that much less damage). So potentially you're living infinitely longer which is why the issue is entirely about sustain, not EHP. 

 Then I responded: 

Quote

You're fundamentally misunderstanding how damage reduction is better than effective hp. Damage reduction is like effective HP + effective healing combined. 

So not only was I not doing what you accused me of, you did this yourself and I was the one correcting you on it. Then you claim I'm being uncharitable as you accuse me of doing your own comparison that I specifically was addressing... Frustrating, isn't it? 

Since it's not clear that you understand, just to reiterate what we already went over, you tried to claim this is dependent on how much heals you have when mathematically it is not. For example, 66.6% damage reduction vs power damage is functionally the same as 300% effective HP + 300% effective healing received. The same relation is true no matter how much healing happens and regardless of whether the source is yourself or others. So in practice, that's not living 3 times longer, it's living to infinity. Because sustain. 

This is why I want to nerf protection and/or change major/minor attribute order on minstrels (indirect nerf). This is also why there's is no possible way to compensate with more tanky gear like you think. Because Minstrels support is already doing the maximum compensation. Until you understand this, I honestly can't care about your opinion on the actual topic so you can potentially ignore my questions in the last post.

Also since you're an ele maybe try minstrels on Tempest before weighing in because I wasn't using hyperbole. Just not your minstrels Weaver idea please 😅

Edited by Zephyrus.9680
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14 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

In all honestly, stats aren't the problem themselves, it's the classes that use them.
Minstrel FB is busted, because the FB itself is busted.

Yup, common knowledge that FB needs a nerf. Nerfing ministrel before FB would be very bad balancing.

First nerf FB, see what happens, then if needed nerf ministrel (someone suggested to swap major/minor stat, thats a good start as the nerf is minor)

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18 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

Simple solution to this:

 

Concentration should only have 50% effectiveness on outgoing boons in WvW

Not a fan of skill-split

 

But you gave me an idea:

Why not totally change how concentration works ? Make it increase boons ON YOU alone (selfapplyed and from team).

I can already ear pve benchmark fanatic crying XD

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On 12/17/2021 at 10:09 AM, schloumou.3982 said:

I think its debatable how skillbased WvW is when most fights are desided by builds/compositions to the degree we have now. Heres a showcase of your skill. Some guys basically random dodging over the map, facerolling everything that has less support.

 

Those guys literally win like a 4 vs. 20 in the second fight… not bad for random dodges and a gear stat like??!?!?  What at that scale, against those odds are gonna achieve those kinds of fights when 70% of wvw is necro. Are you trying to say that they don’t come across groups running more than 2 supports? because to think that 20 man group didn’t have at least 10 is very ambitious.

unless you’re confident that you can 4 vs 20, and dodge that one spectral grasp amongst the 92739392 skills being keyboard smashed at you, I can’t see why you’re criticising these people, they did good at what they’re trying to achieve clearly? 

Edited by Faolain.2374
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6 hours ago, Faolain.2374 said:

Are you trying to say that they don’t come across groups running more than 2 supports?

No because it's irrelevant to the discussion of minstrel or sup being too strong or not.

6 hours ago, Faolain.2374 said:

unless you’re confident that you can 4 vs 20, and dodge that one spectral grasp amongst the 92739392 skills being keyboard smashed at you, I can’t see why you’re criticising these people

I think you misunderstood my post. The point was that you don't have to with this amount of support. Also random dodging is not failing to dodge a skill but dodging when there is nothing to dodge. On a side note I fundamentally disagree with the premise that you are only allowed to criticise something if you can do it better. But if you happen to be on Eu we can go bastion and you throw some skills at me.

Edited by schloumou.3982
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^

Exactly as he said.

The dodge from that guard you re so amazed by are close to random. Hes sometime rolli'g to heal ...

As stated by pal on top, why would you have to dodge a spectral grasp that is never gonna touch you and if somehow would manage to, would be innefectiv due to the stab?

Look how long sometime they stay with over 5condis on them and yet the health bar is not mooving. Are they really playing that good when they allow condis to stay that long ?

 

Yet i think that video is more of FB issue than ministrel. Ill repear myself: nerf FB, see what happen, if it doesnt cut it, lets retalk about ministrel

 

PS: im on phone so cant really see: are they pug stomping or fighting actual organized group ?

Edited by Mattmatt.4962
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40 minutes ago, Mattmatt.4962 said:

^

Exactly as he said.

The dodge from that guard you re so amazed by are close to random. Hes sometime rolli'g to heal ...

As stated by pal on top, why would you have to dodge a spectral grasp that is never gonna touch you and if somehow would manage to, would be innefectiv due to the stab?

Look how long sometime they stay with over 5condis on them and yet the health bar is not mooving. Are they really playing that good when they allow condis to stay that long ?

 

Yet i think that video is more of FB issue than ministrel. Ill repear myself: nerf FB, see what happen, if it doesnt cut it, lets retalk about ministrel

 

PS: im on phone so cant really see: are they pug stomping or fighting actual organized group ?

I just named a random skill could be any take your pick 🙂 

not all condis are damaging? So why cleanse if you’re taking no damage? 

Are we watching the same video? It’s 4 people taking on 20? Are we seriously saying 20 people can not even kill a minstrel anything in seconds just by autoattacking it? The reality is the 20ish people were just bad, that’s nothing to do with stats or firebrand, it’s more a sum up of the average zerg player in wvw currently 

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15 minutes ago, Faolain.2374 said:

I just named a random skill could be any take your pick 🙂 

not all condis are damaging? So why cleanse if you’re taking no damage? 

Are we watching the same video? It’s 4 people taking on 20? Are we seriously saying 20 people can not even kill a minstrel anything in seconds just by autoattacking it? The reality is the 20ish people were just bad, that’s nothing to do with stats or firebrand, it’s more a sum up of the average zerg player in wvw currently 

It's 4v20, the targets won't be focusing 20:1 in that scenario in the slightest if it's random pugs.
Another thing you fail to see is that FB minstrel is farting boons left and right and without any constant boon removal/corrupts he's sustain gets into heavens just from Prot alone, not mentioning 6+ other boons and heals.
Now, if FB wouldn't fart so many boons so often, these 20 people would just roll through these 4 quite swiftly as it should happen, organized or not.

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29 minutes ago, Faolain.2374 said:

I just named a random skill could be any take your pick 🙂 

not all condis are damaging? So why cleanse if you’re taking no damage? 

Are we watching the same video? It’s 4 people taking on 20? Are we seriously saying 20 people can not even kill a minstrel anything in seconds just by autoattacking it? The reality is the 20ish people were just bad, that’s nothing to do with stats or firebrand, it’s more a sum up of the average zerg player in wvw currently 

To add to @TrollingDemigod.3041:

You also fail to see that those pugs are playing ranged ... Aka litteraly 80% of the damage just falls into the void cause of projectile hate.

Again: FB's kit is overloaded (and i play a lot of league, i know what i am talking about lul)

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1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

It's 4v20, the targets won't be focusing 20:1 in that scenario in the slightest if it's random pugs.
Another thing you fail to see is that FB minstrel is farting boons left and right and without any constant boon removal/corrupts he's sustain gets into heavens just from Prot alone, not mentioning 6+ other boons and heals.
Now, if FB wouldn't fart so many boons so often, these 20 people would just roll through these 4 quite swiftly as it should happen, organized or not.

Then it’s a good job there are so many necros in wvw! 😄 

What boons exactly is fb farting out? Besides high but not permanent stab and high resolution uptime, what boons does fb reliable give that would make any kind of difference in a 4v20? That and fb has such little healing in comparison to other supports. 

Edited by Faolain.2374
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25 minutes ago, Faolain.2374 said:

Then it’s a good job there are so many necros in wvw! 😄 

What boons exactly is fb farting out? Besides high but not permanent stab and high resolution uptime, what boons does fb reliable give that would make an kind of different in a 4v20? That and fb has such little healing in comparison to other supports. 

Necros aren't going to do anything if there's no follow up.
You can spam Corrupts on these groups all you want, they'll recover before they hit 50% health if no one else is capitalizing on it. Contrary to what some people think, Necros don't instantly kill anything they look at. It's a team effort and the Necros are what create the opening.

But I agree with you about this.

1 hour ago, Faolain.2374 said:

The reality is the 20ish people were just bad, that’s nothing to do with stats or firebrand, it’s more a sum up of the average zerg player in wvw currently 

The only reason they're having any success is because the players they're fighting have no clue how to apply actual pressure. Supports can literally walk through AOE and cleave practically unharmed if it's just random junk damage.

The video is a better example of how stupid players are than how broken Minstrel is tbh. It's like watching 4 adults start a fist fight with 20 kids in a McDonalds ball pit. 

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Yea if you regularly lose 20v4s then you need to log off because you are a waste of queue space.

 

I mean everyone screws up and gets picked off but this shouldn't be a regular issue.

Now I admit I often cant take groups like these in a fair fight and I don't bother if they're running a comp like thst  but with these odds or even as bad as 2:1 a good spinal shivers is going to immedtiately turn the fight against them.

Notice on the video the players could have easily clouded them out instead of w keying.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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On 12/13/2021 at 10:50 PM, God.2708 said:

There's an interesting discussion to be had around the nature of what the mode should look like when played at full capacity and everyone trying to fulfill it's 'intent' (Controlling the most space/getting the most war score). I don't think anyone making topics like these is actually capable or interested in having that discussion.

You can't nerf boonballs out of existence. They exist because of what the mode itself expects. Not what any player or build produces, individually or together.

 

In the past, I've mucked around with finding the most optimal zerg configurations...trying out different shapes and how those shapes would globally effect buffs and damage across a fight.

First Shape

The most effective shape I found...unironically is a stochastic "cloud point" ball configuration, with preferably, an infinite point like density...no subgroups...and the more points there are, the more robust the group becomes due to the dispersion of target cap limited damage, and the ability to simply avoid being hit by that dispersed damage.

In essence, the more people you have moving around in a stochastic ball configuration , the more dispersed the damage becomes and the more that damage asymptoticly approaches 0 where you get lower and lower probability to be hit by an attack.

In the most optimal setting, with an infinite number of people...buff or healing abilities simply aren't needed...just straight up bodies....because the chance of being hit by an attack approaches 0%...again as the number of players in your group approach infinity, they will disperse these target capped attacks through stochastic processes.

WvW doesn't have infinite players, but the above serves as a good approximation to what you can think of as the most optimal zerg configuration

 

Second Shape

Not to far behind this configuration is the standard meta configuration, or just "ball configuration" which is also a stochastic ball, with the exception that it's divided into subgroups, to enable players to spread out from an infinitely dense point. Even though this seems like a perceived benefit of gaining more space for the configuration, it actually comes at the cost of this stochastic process that disperses damage in the first place...because regardless it always makes sense to condense into an infinitely dense point cloud configuration. So what ends up happening is that this configurations only difference, is that it instates upon the zerg itself, an allied target cap to pulsing target capped abilities.

Aside from these two, no other shapes even seemed mathematically sound, logical or practical even. And to be honest that shouldn't be much of a surprise. I mean hell the universe began in a point-cloud-ball like configuration...there's good reasoning for why spherical cloud points like this are optimal shapes...they are stable, lowest energy, optimal pathing configurations.

 

Conclusion

So in conclusion...it's just like you said. Boon-Balling really is not going to be nerfed out of existence. It's the most optimal configuration based on just people existing in the game mode. Ha!

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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necros are extremly potent against these feared "Boon balls"... just a lot of necros also play random crap builds. not valid ones simply won't corrupt much, and necro is a popular class. u see a huge amount of necromances just having zero clue of what their class is capable off. once invited another random pug into a group to check their strips, in 2min clouding it was like 3 strips that they made, where i had around 100 or sth alike (clouding isn't the best to set up solid work)

 

anet just messed up the whole system by removing retaliation. resolution is simply bad, the builds however have barely changed, bc retal been a passive against silly cookie cutter builds. now, the cookie cuts are everywhere, but 90% luckily play these builds extremly ineffective.
sustain got yet heavy nerfs, as well as dmg output. only the glasscannons have still the same dps literally as before. sustain has zero pressure at all anymore, condi dps did not really get serious nerfs. also siege dmg is absurd against player, far too high. siege is too easily stacked around and has too many HP

 

so yeah, anet sabotages their own system, and minstrel has NOTHING at all to do with the problem the "balancing" team has created lately.

 

like, imagine crying rivers of salty tears about minstrel builds, who mainly are the core of groups. in a largescale groupplay format (ideally) ... quite sounding like a bad joke to complain about this, really.

 

issue is that clouding has become extremly easy. bad nerf and changes on all classes leading to a format where basically not many people are even willing to fight at any other rater than 50 v15, full blobs sometimes hide for odd reasons, bc they prefer to hug siege, so they can run their bad builds...

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