Long time WvW veteran, commander, guild leader feedback over beta - Bassett [EU]

[James.3982]

Feedback, no dooming and glooming and kitten this kitten that. Coming from 5000+ hours of WvW, being a former leader of two WvW guilds, officer/class lead and member in few more, open tag commander, training event organizer and a pug. Having been part of/played on different server communities with varying populations, coordination and activity [AG, RoF, SFR, FSP, WSR, Dz and now back in AG].

To give context to the feedback - I'm a zerg player, guild player, (GvG player) - I love 20-30 player voice coordinated raids and enjoy overcoming challenges and opposing guilds/blobs.
WvW Guild players form a major part of the active WvW community and offer most of the organized events and commanders in the game mode. I don't roam, so you won't get a roamer's PoV from me.


Alliance beta feedback from [Pleb] Skrittsburgh:

As far as I know, the world consisted of [Pleb] alliance of former WSR players + friends, 3 other actively raiding WvW guilds (20ish members each) and free agent pugs. We had open mic leads daily, often multiple trough the evening and night. Very short queue times during prime time and active [Pleb] discord trough the week to communicate with each other.

1) Matchup Balance. To be honest, I've not cared about winning a matchup or PPT in years so I paid very little attention to this.
What interests me more, is how the PvP balance felt. In the past different servers have very varying levels of coordination and player experience - this leads to uneven zerg warfare, and getting stomped by an team of experience players is no fun. It discourages players and commanders from playing the game mode and promotes stacking into selected few servers. As server transfer is considerably easier - than it is to train and bring together a mediocre fighting server.
By Comparison to previous months in Aurora Glade (+WSR) the FUN for me was increased tenfold. There were challenging and evenly matched fights throughout the week.
To be perfectly honest, [Pleb] is stacked with experience. But it was still nowhere close to how it felt couple years ago on Stacked WSR server - where every single reset raid would end in boredom within the first hour as the level of experience was too overpowering [Kill, LAYS, FAIR + Friends blob]. It was close enough this time, that I could see any of the three Worlds in that matchup being able to compete in zerg vs. zerg PvP depending on day and effort. (I do not have the Kill/Death ratios for the matchup, but I'd guess the numbers were more balanced than in some of the current matchups.)

2) Prime time Activity in WvW compared to the server I spent the last 3-4 months in was a MASSIVE upgrade. Evenings in WvW went from struggling to find even a single opponent to fight with - to having at best 5-6 guilds on the same map brawling it out. Evening queues, if there were any, were below 10 players.

3) Off Prime time activity felt very normal compared to the usual server system. Daytime consisted mostly of non-voice commanders or roamers. There still isn't much of a reason to compete 24/7 for control and matchup victory, bringing more activity to off hours.

4) Community aspect. Many former AG players let out a sigh of relief once they were united back to the old server, I heard many voice their opinion that the alliance system had broken the communities and made WvW feel empty and boring. My own experience with [Pleb] was of course the exact opposite, with an already prepared community I had a blast.

In order for Alliances to work, the old communities need to be broken and re-made into the new system. Doing this, it is very important that every world gets an EQUAL AMOUNT OF FREE AGENT PLAYERS as these are the PvX players, roamers, casuals and returning WvW players that are essential pool of recruits for the alliances and guilds to sustain and grow their player bases. Also, unbalanced amount of free agents creates unbalanced matchups in player coordination and skill.

Which brings us to...
5) Needed in-game features for community re-organization.
- in game WvW Alliance panel containing: Alliance chat to announce events, open tags and information. Alliance "Crest" or other in game ways to tell Alliances from apart and push for Alliance Pride (willingness to improve,  host events together and something to fight for.)
- Reward System. I won't go into detail here, but well performing Worlds should be rewarded with something that carries over to the PvE side of the game too. This is to promote WvW and give reason to step into the game mode. Don't make it too hard to acquire, more like something that encourages PvX players to step in, join in the action and PvP, meet new people and find fun experiences in WvW that will hopefully bring them back again.

6) WvW (imo) consists of three core pillars:
Leaders: the commanders and community leaders, who build events and bring people together, provide content and experiences. It's crucial that Alliances (once ready) give these players tools to organize events and communities in game. Being a leader in the game requires effort and as time goes on we have less and less of these guys.
Guilds: The class leaders, experienced players, theorycrafters, veterans of the game mode. Bring the core and make the game mode feel exciting and competitive. It's crucial that these players have opponents to compete against and reason to keep coming back to the game (challenge, reward, Alliance pride).
PvX Players: Eventually every player and leader will quit the game or take a break - we need fresh new blood. These players need the reason to step into the game mode in the first place and then find the experienced players and leaders to guide them to the FUN and challenge.


End Word:
Overall I see loads of potential in the system. WvW has been in a stale state for years and needs this revamp to stay enjoyable for ALL the worlds - not just the select few stacked ones.
Players should not have to pay gems and server transfer in search for good WvW content - as your experience in WvW is highly dependent on which server you play for. Currently I'd estimate 3-4 EU servers provide more players, more commanders, more experience and more FUN to be had during the matchup.
Will there be stacked Alliances in the future, 100%. But guild/player limitations in each Alliance should promote having multiple alliances competing vs. each other (along with rewards and in-game ways to organize the Alliances to perform better).


Waiting for the next beta - hopefully with guild Alliances this time o/
-Bassett

[Loke.1429]

really looking forward to alliances here also. Major upgrade when it comes. I hope they add tools to explore the alliances / make them visible to new players

[velvetbat.9073]

As fellow Pleb I agree, it was a lot of fun and nice fights! And I was happy to reunite with old friends / seeing familiar names again on the field. 😄

[Chichimec.9364]

3 hours ago, James.3982 said:

Feedback, no dooming and glooming and kitten this kitten that. Coming from 5000+ hours of WvW, being a former leader of two WvW guilds, officer/class lead and member in few more, open tag commander, training event organizer and a pug. Having been part of/played on different server communities with varying populations, coordination and activity [AG, RoF, SFR, FSP, WSR, Dz and now back in AG].

To give context to the feedback - I'm a zerg player, guild player, (GvG player) - I love 20-30 player voice coordinated raids and enjoy overcoming challenges and opposing guilds/blobs.
WvW Guild players form a major part of the active WvW community and offer most of the organized events and commanders in the game mode. I don't roam, so you won't get a roamer's PoV from me.


Alliance beta feedback from [Pleb] Skrittsburgh:

As far as I know, the world consisted of [Pleb] alliance of former WSR players + friends, 3 other actively raiding WvW guilds (20ish members each) and free agent pugs. We had open mic leads daily, often multiple trough the evening and night. Very short queue times during prime time and active [Pleb] discord trough the week to communicate with each other.

1) Matchup Balance. To be honest, I've not cared about winning a matchup or PPT in years so I paid very little attention to this.
What interests me more, is how the PvP balance felt. In the past different servers have very varying levels of coordination and player experience - this leads to uneven zerg warfare, and getting stomped by an team of experience players is no fun. It discourages players and commanders from playing the game mode and promotes stacking into selected few servers. As server transfer is considerably easier - than it is to train and bring together a mediocre fighting server.
By Comparison to previous months in Aurora Glade (+WSR) the FUN for me was increased tenfold. There were challenging and evenly matched fights throughout the week.
To be perfectly honest, [Pleb] is stacked with experience. But it was still nowhere close to how it felt couple years ago on Stacked WSR server - where every single reset raid would end in boredom within the first hour as the level of experience was too overpowering [Kill, LAYS, FAIR + Friends blob]. It was close enough this time, that I could see any of the three Worlds in that matchup being able to compete in zerg vs. zerg PvP depending on day and effort. (I do not have the Kill/Death ratios for the matchup, but I'd guess the numbers were more balanced than in some of the current matchups.)

2) Prime time Activity in WvW compared to the server I spent the last 3-4 months in was a MASSIVE upgrade. Evenings in WvW went from struggling to find even a single opponent to fight with - to having at best 5-6 guilds on the same map brawling it out. Evening queues, if there were any, were below 10 players.

3) Off Prime time activity felt very normal compared to the usual server system. Daytime consisted mostly of non-voice commanders or roamers. There still isn't much of a reason to compete 24/7 for control and matchup victory, bringing more activity to off hours.

4) Community aspect. Many former AG players let out a sigh of relief once they were united back to the old server, I heard many voice their opinion that the alliance system had broken the communities and made WvW feel empty and boring. My own experience with [Pleb] was of course the exact opposite, with an already prepared community I had a blast.

In order for Alliances to work, the old communities need to be broken and re-made into the new system. Doing this, it is very important that every world gets an EQUAL AMOUNT OF FREE AGENT PLAYERS as these are the PvX players, roamers, casuals and returning WvW players that are essential pool of recruits for the alliances and guilds to sustain and grow their player bases. Also, unbalanced amount of free agents creates unbalanced matchups in player coordination and skill.

Which brings us to...
5) Needed in-game features for community re-organization.
- in game WvW Alliance panel containing: Alliance chat to announce events, open tags and information. Alliance "Crest" or other in game ways to tell Alliances from apart and push for Alliance Pride (willingness to improve,  host events together and something to fight for.)
- Reward System. I won't go into detail here, but well performing Worlds should be rewarded with something that carries over to the PvE side of the game too. This is to promote WvW and give reason to step into the game mode. Don't make it too hard to acquire, more like something that encourages PvX players to step in, join in the action and PvP, meet new people and find fun experiences in WvW that will hopefully bring them back again.

6) WvW (imo) consists of three core pillars:
Leaders: the commanders and community leaders, who build events and bring people together, provide content and experiences. It's crucial that Alliances (once ready) give these players tools to organize events and communities in game. Being a leader in the game requires effort and as time goes on we have less and less of these guys.
Guilds: The class leaders, experienced players, theorycrafters, veterans of the game mode. Bring the core and make the game mode feel exciting and competitive. It's crucial that these players have opponents to compete against and reason to keep coming back to the game (challenge, reward, Alliance pride).
PvX Players: Eventually every player and leader will quit the game or take a break - we need fresh new blood. These players need the reason to step into the game mode in the first place and then find the experienced players and leaders to guide them to the FUN and challenge.


End Word:
Overall I see loads of potential in the system. WvW has been in a stale state for years and needs this revamp to stay enjoyable for ALL the worlds - not just the select few stacked ones.
Players should not have to pay gems and server transfer in search for good WvW content - as your experience in WvW is highly dependent on which server you play for. Currently I'd estimate 3-4 EU servers provide more players, more commanders, more experience and more FUN to be had during the matchup.
Will there be stacked Alliances in the future, 100%. But guild/player limitations in each Alliance should promote having multiple alliances competing vs. each other (along with rewards and in-game ways to organize the Alliances to perform better).


Waiting for the next beta - hopefully with guild Alliances this time o/
-Bassett

Thank you. This is some of the most thoughtful and constructive feedback on the coming Alliance system that I've seen yet.

[Resurgente.4305]

Nice post James, thx for work 👍

[Abanga.7451]

the same thing happened in general wvw on which the player will decide the leader of the alliance will go and who will not why do you have so many emotions as if, in addition to the strong decline of online activity on wvw, you are waiting for something else from the alliance

players were transferred looking for servers where they are interested now if these assembled teams are divided into some alliances, some will not go at all how can you bury wvw activity with such zeal and enthusiasm if you are really interested in wvw

[Cyninja.2954]

That's what constructive feedback looks like. Thank You!

[SweetPotato.7456]

On 12/12/2021 at 3:46 AM, James.3982 said:

(self praise self praise self praise)  Redacted

In order for Alliances to work, the old communities need to be broken and re-made into the new system. Doing this, it is very important that every world gets an EQUAL AMOUNT OF FREE AGENT PLAYERS as these are the PvX players, roamers, casuals and returning WvW players that are essential pool of recruits for the alliances and guilds to sustain and grow their player bases. Also, unbalanced amount of free agents creates unbalanced matchups in player coordination and skill.

Redacted 

Roamers aren't for you to re-distribute equally into random teams, we want to stay with our people, without joining a guild.

In order for alliance to work, the scoring systems and maps need to change. Otherwise its just a massive reshuffling of players.

[retsuya.4708]

On 12/12/2021 at 3:46 AM, James.3982 said:

3) Off Prime time activity felt very normal compared to the usual server system. Daytime consisted mostly of non-voice commanders or roamers. There still isn't much of a reason to compete 24/7 for control and matchup victory, bringing more activity to off hours.

off-hours would consolidate into 2-3 alliances and make everyone else quit.

They should ditch the alliance and make 100 man guild for wvw else it will be 500 strong dedicated wvw players vs 500 just here for the pips kind of players.

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Roamers aren't for you to re-distribute equally into random teams, we want to stay with our people, without joining a guild.

Who is this "we"?  I know plenty of roamers who joined a guild in order to stay together during the beta.  It's really not that hard.  You can even name the guild "Our People".  The rest of the game shouldn't have to be held up for someone's personal social choices and fear of commitment.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[SweetPotato.7456]

9 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Who is this "we"?  I know plenty of roamers who joined a guild in order to stay together during the beta.  It's really not that hard.  You can even name the guild "Our People".  The rest of the game shouldn't have to be held up for someone's personal social choices and fear of commitment.

And I know a lot of players who doesn't want to join any guild, or they have their own small guilds. What's your point? 

[Infusion.7149]

37 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

And I know a lot of players who doesn't want to join any guild, or they have their own small guilds. What's your point? 

Clearly you need a refresher on what alliances are. What we experienced in this past beta WVW system wasn't it.

[Chaba.5410]

9 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

And I know a lot of players who doesn't want to join any guild, or they have their own small guilds. What's your point? 

I could ask you the same thing.  As I understood it, you were saying unironically that people who don't want to group up shouldn't have their group divided.  How is that supposed to be an argument against world restructuring?

My point was: "The rest of the game shouldn't have to be held up for someone's personal social choices and fear of commitment."

[SweetPotato.7456]

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I could ask you the same thing.  As I understood it, you were saying unironically that people who don't want to group up shouldn't have their group divided.  How is that supposed to be an argument against world restructuring?

My point was: "The rest of the game shouldn't have to be held up for someone's personal social choices and fear of commitment."

9 years of watching how other servers play, know their sneaky style, able to predict when/what they going to hit, is not commitment?  

Edited December 15, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[Chaba.5410]

45 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

9 years of watching how other servers play, know their sneaky style, able to predict when/what they going to hit, is not commitment?  

Huh?  Why are you talking about your opponents now?  I thought you wanted to talk about "our people", implying other players on your world.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[SweetPotato.7456]

46 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Huh?  Why are you talking about your opponents now?  I thought you wanted to talk about "our people", implying other players on your world.

Huh? what? 
You started it, I was talking about how roamers matter too, and we aren't to be redistributed like some items.  Then you said I don't have commitment. How are roamers commitment any different from someone who choose to join a guild? In-fact , most roamers I encounter play longer hours than guild running groups/zerg. Who the ones not have commitment? 

[Infusion.7149]

34 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Huh? what? 
You started it, I was talking about how roamers matter too, and we aren't to be redistributed like some items.  Then you said I don't have commitment. How are roamers commitment any different from someone who choose to join a guild? In-fact , most roamers I encounter play longer hours than guild running groups/zerg. Who the ones not have commitment? 

This can be paraphrased as "I love my server but don't want to join their alliance".
The first iteration of alliances BETA (key word) was only guilds , which is why the topic creator made an alliance guild. Please stop derailing their feedback to give a tirade on how "roamers matter too". A guild can consist of one person and you don't need to rep. Most WVW guilds that are remotely hardcore ask people to rep and run comped, community guilds or alliance guilds may or may not.
 

For the vast majority of "roamers" the other allied players on the map don't matter. If they did matter to you then you would find a way to ally with said players in the full implementation of alliances. If you want freedom , "I don't want people to tell me what to do" (hear this excuse all the time by people that follow tags on comp classes but never join or play off a tag on the other side of the map using attention on main tag ), or whatever then an alliance using  personal bank guild is the option.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Huh? what? 
You started it, I was talking about how roamers matter too, and we aren't to be redistributed like some items.  Then you said I don't have commitment. How are roamers commitment any different from someone who choose to join a guild? In-fact , most roamers I encounter play longer hours than guild running groups/zerg. Who the ones not have commitment? 

I asked you who "we" is. Pretending to represent and speak for all roamers is both meaningless and disingenuous. If you don't want to personally commit to a group like a guild in order to remain with that group, that isn't the game's problem. The game gives you tools. It is up to you to use them or not.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[SweetPotato.7456]

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I asked you who "we" is. Pretending to represent and speak for all roamers is both meaningless and disingenuous. If you don't want to personally commit to a group like a guild in order to remain with that group, that isn't the game's problem. The game gives you tools. It is up to you to use them or not.

I am speaking as a roamers, not speaking for all roamers you on the other hand  .... tsk tsk... just stop you not getting out of this one.

[Mabi black.1824]

given that I find this update of alliances positive ......... we reshuffle players ...... they fix the balance ...... completely enthusiastic about this.

the real problem here is to eliminate the only stable certainty of the team/world or whatever you want to call it.

only way to give me a reasonable purpose to get busy. fill the teams with alliances + guilds + random reshuffle the teams even every 12 months....... but at least I know I have a safe team for this year........ let's see who was the best and then let's start again.

otherwise what remains ........ in my part I just saw a guild of 50 players melt like snow in the sun after a few years ...... and another of 25 players transfer......... I should base my fun and my commitment to creating content to climb a ranking......... on what solid foundations........ the whims of one or a few other people who may decide for me.

no thanks this just do not like ........ the result for me would be to go at random with many friends ........... but still at random .......... a lot less competition and a lot more relaxation.

[Chaba.5410]

8 hours ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

I am speaking as a roamers, not speaking for all roamers you on the other hand  .... tsk tsk... just stop you not getting out of this one.

Your words say otherwise.  Were you trying to use the "royal we" instead of the collective first person plural pronoun?

On 12/14/2021 at 6:06 AM, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Roamers aren't for you to re-distribute equally into random teams, we want to stay with our people, without joining a guild.

Edit: And like another poster suggested, what does your crusade have to do with guilds that did use the community-formation tools and left feedback on it?  Again, it's up to you to use the tools or not.  If you aren't interested in that, the rest of the game doesn't have to be held up by your personal social choices.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[SweetPotato.7456]

7 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Your words say otherwise.  Were you trying to use the "royal we" instead of the collective first person plural pronoun?

Edit: And like another poster suggested, what does your crusade have to do with guilds that did use the community-formation tools and left feedback on it?  Again, it's up to you to use the tools or not.  If you aren't interested in that, the rest of the game doesn't have to be held up by your personal social choices.

You are not putting words in my post! na-ah! NO.

I am speaking as a roamers, am here to tell Anet what I feel about the beta, You aren't and can't deny me that. 

I didn't like how alliance is handle related to roamers. END OF STORY.  do something better. 

[SweetPotato.7456]

19 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

This can be paraphrased as "I love my server but don't want to join their alliance".
The first iteration of alliances BETA (key word) was only guilds , which is why the topic creator made an alliance guild. Please stop derailing their feedback to give a tirade on how "roamers matter too". A guild can consist of one person and you don't need to rep. Most WVW guilds that are remotely hardcore ask people to rep and run comped, community guilds or alliance guilds may or may not.
 

For the vast majority of "roamers" the other allied players on the map don't matter. If they did matter to you then you would find a way to ally with said players in the full implementation of alliances. If you want freedom , "I don't want people to tell me what to do" (hear this excuse all the time by people that follow tags on comp classes but never join or play off a tag on the other side of the map using attention on main tag ), or whatever then an alliance using  personal bank guild is the option.

5 guild slots. end of story.

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

5 guild slots. end of story.

And any one of those slots can join any alliance. Much drama.

[SweetPotato.7456]

24 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

And any one of those slots can join any alliance. Much drama.

one alliance.  alliance is displacing the whole servers in to team. do better.   end of story.

Edited December 16, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456