A group finding pug system would be nice for fractals

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

So for starters, for something like Tier 1, 2, *maybe* 3, throwing 5 randoms in isnt much of a problem. Once you get to Tier 4 where roles and comp kinda matter, it wouldn’t really be feasible.
Because of how class builds are in this game, it’s pretty difficult to make an automated queue unless you 

1: Rely on trust that people are queueing for what they will do

2: Have a very intense build checker to ensure that you can sign up for a role.

I really don’t expect a automated system reliant on trust to work out terribly well, we already have issue concerning toxicity and elitism in the manual groups. People joining in on builds or roles to either troll or they’re simply unable to do would be a large problem.

Even before people saying “well FB is better than other sources of quickness”, you’d have to make a huge system of checks to even see if you’re actually bringing quickness. Things like “well you don’t have this skill/trait, so you can’t queue”. Then even if you have the skills needed to supply quickness there would need to be calculations like “If you have this rotation and your stats have this Concentration, can you actually maintain quickness?”.
There’s no definitive threshold to say “you need to meet this requirement to queue as this role”. Alac Renegades run basically full Diviner, while Mirages run like, Sigil of Concentration + Food.

There’s also things like role compression that would have to be enforced. A typical group contains a healer + quickness or Alacrity, a dps support with the other boon, and 3 dps (comps like Healbrand + Mirage + 3 dps) or previously a comp of Chrono for boons + Druid + 3 dps. So trying to queue as say Healer for example, the game would have to start enforcing things like “you can heal, but you also have to bring either quickness or alacrity” because it’s become expected in the community at this point.

If you can only fill specific builds, it kinda gets to the point where this system Anet makes would have to either enforce you only having specific gear to be able to queue as a role (ie, you can only queue as a healer + boons if you’re running Harrier, Minstrel, and Celestial), or they’d say “you have to run this specific build for your class if you want to do this role” to enforce you doing what you’re signing up for. Something like this (the game itself forcing you to use very specific builds) I don’t see Anet doing. It drastically goes against how they’re trying to present the game to players where they don’t mandate what kind of build you run, the exception being ascended gear for fractals (and again only the type of gear you run, not the skills/stats/runes, etc).

Compared to matchmaking like WoW or FFXIV, all the classes (and specs) have very specific roles that their entire kit is built to do. The tanks have the toolkit they need to be able to tank, no matter what talent or build they have set up. The only requirement would be having a specific item level / gear score to queue up for it. Something like that would be comparable to Anet mandating specific gears / builds for fractals which is not maintainable at all. Examples being if you wanted to do a Condi Ranger:

-You can use 1 shortbow, 2 shortbows with a weapon swap Proc sigil, SB+Dagger/Torch, Axe/Dagger+Dagger/Torch, Dagger/Dagger, etc.

-You can only use this subset of pets because the other ones “aren’t used”.

-You can only use these skills, despite there being niches other skills can be used in, no matter how incredibly small that niche is.

A system like that has to “check off” your build and control an automated queue system would not be maintainable. A Protection Warrior in WoW or a Warrior in FFXIV is already guaranteed to be a tank no matter how they’re looked at.

I’m not sure if ESO for example has one (I know the builds/classes in that game are also very fluid) so I can’t give any comparison to that.

[Hume.2876]

On 1/7/2022 at 1:58 AM, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

So for starters, for something like Tier 1, 2, *maybe* 3, throwing 5 randoms in isnt much of a problem. Once you get to Tier 4 where roles and comp kinda matter, it wouldn’t really be feasible.
Because of how class builds are in this game, it’s pretty difficult to make an automated queue unless you 

1: Rely on trust that people are queueing for what they will do

2: Have a very intense build checker to ensure that you can sign up for a role.

I really don’t expect a automated system reliant on trust to work out terribly well, we already have issue concerning toxicity and elitism in the manual groups. People joining in on builds or roles to either troll or they’re simply unable to do would be a large problem.

Even before people saying “well FB is better than other sources of quickness”, you’d have to make a huge system of checks to even see if you’re actually bringing quickness. Things like “well you don’t have this skill/trait, so you can’t queue”. Then even if you have the skills needed to supply quickness there would need to be calculations like “If you have this rotation and your stats have this Concentration, can you actually maintain quickness?”.
There’s no definitive threshold to say “you need to meet this requirement to queue as this role”. Alac Renegades run basically full Diviner, while Mirages run like, Sigil of Concentration + Food.

There’s also things like role compression that would have to be enforced. A typical group contains a healer + quickness or Alacrity, a dps support with the other boon, and 3 dps (comps like Healbrand + Mirage + 3 dps) or previously a comp of Chrono for boons + Druid + 3 dps. So trying to queue as say Healer for example, the game would have to start enforcing things like “you can heal, but you also have to bring either quickness or alacrity” because it’s become expected in the community at this point.

If you can only fill specific builds, it kinda gets to the point where this system Anet makes would have to either enforce you only having specific gear to be able to queue as a role (ie, you can only queue as a healer + boons if you’re running Harrier, Minstrel, and Celestial), or they’d say “you have to run this specific build for your class if you want to do this role” to enforce you doing what you’re signing up for. Something like this (the game itself forcing you to use very specific builds) I don’t see Anet doing. It drastically goes against how they’re trying to present the game to players where they don’t mandate what kind of build you run, the exception being ascended gear for fractals (and again only the type of gear you run, not the skills/stats/runes, etc).

Compared to matchmaking like WoW or FFXIV, all the classes (and specs) have very specific roles that their entire kit is built to do. The tanks have the toolkit they need to be able to tank, no matter what talent or build they have set up. The only requirement would be having a specific item level / gear score to queue up for it. Something like that would be comparable to Anet mandating specific gears / builds for fractals which is not maintainable at all. Examples being if you wanted to do a Condi Ranger:

-You can use 1 shortbow, 2 shortbows with a weapon swap Proc sigil, SB+Dagger/Torch, Axe/Dagger+Dagger/Torch, Dagger/Dagger, etc.

-You can only use this subset of pets because the other ones “aren’t used”.

-You can only use these skills, despite there being niches other skills can be used in, no matter how incredibly small that niche is.

A system like that has to “check off” your build and control an automated queue system would not be maintainable. A Protection Warrior in WoW or a Warrior in FFXIV is already guaranteed to be a tank no matter how they’re looked at.

I’m not sure if ESO for example has one (I know the builds/classes in that game are also very fluid) so I can’t give any comparison to that.

 

I don't think that would put something in there that strong.  Best they would do is opt in roles.  And that would just be healer/support/dps. 

 

If I was with Arenanet -  I'd actually look into implementing some counters for instances where people are stacking particular builds.  This way there would be no "perfect" build set anymore.  And these counters could be slightly random - so that it doesn't become - lets never bring HB they will get counters.

 

You would have to disallow changing builds in the instance though.  Ideally what you really want - is the original intention where different builds and combos can work - but not ANY builds or combos.  

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

 

I don't think that would put something in there that strong.  Best they would do is opt in roles.  And that would just be healer/support/dps. 

 

If I was with Arenanet -  I'd actually look into implementing some counters for instances where people are stacking particular builds.  This way there would be no "perfect" build set anymore.  And these counters could be slightly random - so that it doesn't become - lets never bring HB they will get counters.

 

You would have to disallow changing builds in the instance though.  Ideally what you really want - is the original intention where different builds and combos can work - but not ANY builds or combos.  

So now you would only be able to play with the certain, anet approved builds or you wouldn't be "recognized" by the mm algorithm? Or they would need to classify every single trait/stat combination so they fit in particular roles? Or did I not understand what you mean here?

In case of opt-in roles, I fail to see how that's a positive change when compared to lfg, where you still can choose what you play and join squads you fit in. People not wanting to wait in queues will typically queue with less popular roles, except with non-fitting builds and then still complain about people ""being toxic"" since they're not accepted in squads just like they're now. The others probably are perfectly fine using current lfg system (which, admittedly, isn't perfect either 😉 ).

Edited January 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Vidit.7108]

I think that there is a bit of misunderstanding on what a fractal healer/supporter role has to do. It's not a "do this every time in very situation" type of thing there is a lot of nuance. Like bringing more reflects than usual to fractals that have We Bleed Fire. As players add more AR their gear should also change due to mist potions. A full Harrier HB is a waste at 200 AR.

Let me give an example of a situation in t4. Daily is Chaos: Instabs are No Pain No Gain, Adrenaline Rush, Toxic Trail. Your group is: HB, Alac Ren (diviner), three power dps (say zerk, weaver, sb)

On the first boss it's a pretty standard boss fight, Alac ren is boon ripping, HB is maybe bringing a heal utility. Stability not super necessary for most of the fight.
Second boss Alac Ren still needs to boon rip, so HB takes more stability, toxic trail not really in play anymore so bow of truth goes out for a stab utility. Still not enough stab for a really smooth run so out goes the elite.  The HB changes virtues trait line for valor to keep fury upkeep high and trade passive heals for group toughness which might help with Adrenaline rush in play near the end. The HB is still an HB but is using a different build at the end of the fractal than at the beginning.

An HB paired with an alac mirage should be using different utilities than they would when paired with an alac ren. HB needs to cover protection and stability on their own while the mirage will probably cover all of the fury (and might). 

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

3 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

I don't think that would put something in there that strong.  Best they would do is opt in roles.  And that would just be healer/support/dps. 

But again, that would all rely on trust in the person queueing for that position. I can claim I’m signing up as a healer in my Druid, but then I actually come in on my Soulbeast build. Tough luck rest of the group, Im going to be rude and I can’t be forced to take Druid.

You also can’t really force people to take specific things as I mentioned above. Sure the game can force me to play the Druid Elite, but as I described above the system that would need to be put into place to force people build’s to fulfill the role they queued up for would not be manageable.

3 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

You would have to disallow changing builds in the instance though.  Ideally what you really want - is the original intention where different builds and combos can work - but not ANY builds or combos.  

Not letting people change builds would not be a good idea. If there’s any kind of mechanic that involves something like reflects or such and not one happens to have one slotted, then the entire group is out of luck.

EDIT: For the last statement as well, the “any build and combo can work” part. At that point you could just allow queueing without any need for roles if ideally any fractal can be beaten with any combo. Sure that technically possible, but for some combinations or different fractals it would be significantly more difficult. We Bleed Fire without reflects, not having boon strips when you need them, etc. On T4s maybe not as crucial but definitely on CMs having healers, supports, and dedicated dps roles makes thing significantly easier than running what would essentially be 5 random people regardless of their skill level. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by AlexndrTheGreat.8310

[mythical.6315]

On 1/6/2022 at 4:53 PM, Hume.2876 said:

Heal FB and Alac must for tier 4?  Maybe they could add some automated role requirement to the LFG.  And then balance the game around that..

 

So every "support" spec could have equal value (assuming they are done right) and every healer would have equal value (assuming they are done right).

 

This would be making it less random not more - but it seems needed for tier 4.  Tier 2 and 3 don't seem to need any special classes.  Seems for that all scourge necros is really good.. LOL.

Why should they go through all of that effort just to make something work when the LFG system works pretty much just as well?