Between Bladesworn and Vindicator, which will be "most likely to succeed" in PVE come EOD?

[Joxer.6024]

Am just wondering, of the two, looking at both as power, cuz Condi is just like everywhere and power builds would be a fun fresh flavor to run, which do you all reckon will be the go to for Raids\Strikes, etc.?

I know PVP and such is a whole other beast and I dont go there as I am clueless but just curious as to if the Dragon trigger mechanic will be a bust in fast moving content and can Vindi be enough to push out its rivals? Now I am going forward thinking that ANET is going to do something in regards to 10 man buffs and such. Makes no sense to release new shiny elites that cant hold a candle to their predecessors...that would just be silly. But hey, wwho knows right?

I am leaving Bent Willy out of this equation cuz its Guardian and looks like it will get all the things but will it be any good...and...everyone is testing/playing it as condi, oh joy, another condi build!

So yea, for those that played around alot with Bladesworn and Vindicator whats your take when the wrapping comes off? Will it be Warrior finally get to shine without carrying those sticks around or will the Dragoon wannabe Vindicator take the cake?

Not too far off really...    😉

 

(again, PVP and WvW is a whole different story of which I am clueless and also Virtuoso being power again it just didnt fit into what I was curious about, it might be fine....big on the might) 

[Mesket.5728]

BS will be anothet mediocre dps carrying banners to play "support" without proper tools. It's just another berserker with a delayed and stronger burst. There's  a small diference of around 2k dps between berserker and BS. So warriors will remain the same.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mesket.5728

[Raiken.1476]

The Bladesworn will probably have higher demand for its banners. However, it'll just be another take on Banner Berserker in the end. The DPS doesn't really increase all that much when not taking banners, so it's also kinda stuck in the one slot per raid. The class doesn't really bring anything new to the Warrior in terms of roles, so it's first gotta break out of the Warrior vs Warrior competition.

 

The Vindicator still has a way to go, because while it offers decent damage in a vacuum on a large hitbox, such bosses tend to require CC which Vindicators struggle to provide (especially using Alliance stance), and then they've got trouble dodging damage. On the other hand, once Vindicator does become more viable, there's not that much direct competition within the class since all other power revenants struggle with actually dealing damage.

 

In their current state, I'd imagine the Bladesworn is more viable. In the big picture with the whole class as the background, I think picking the Revenant for the Vindicator is a better idea than picking the Warrior for the Bladesworn.

[anbujackson.9564]

Vindicator will take the cake. Its not even a slight maybe. 

You got another melee spec on warrior which has barely any difference between banners and pure dps because your utilities are pretty bad and your traits are always the same. Personally I believe that berserker comes out on top in any relaistic scenario. The 1-2k difference on the golem wont change that.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

In a realistic scenario people will find that Berserker handles and plays more easily than Bladesworn and no one will play it outside of some RP or fcking around in Open World. In all other instances it would end up being a drag on the party (PvP, WvW, Raids, Strikes, DRM CMs, and FotM).

Now if Anet actually listened to the feedback from the warrior mains then Bladesworn might actually unseat Berserker in power DPS, and may actually be worth taking in a support role that isn't banners. But they don't listen to us.

[Mesket.5728]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Personally I believe that berserker comes out on top in any relaistic scenario. The 1-2k difference on the golem wont change that.

I concur. BS suffers heavily if you miss any big hit or the fight is to mobile. I don't really see any scenario for BS in the game, honestly. It only works in prolonged fights and even there, Zerk might be better.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mesket.5728

[Infusion.7149]

Vindicator probably is going to not overtake renegade in most places except for Vale Guardian, Keep Construct, and Conjured Amalgamate since everywhere else torment is strong and/or power is weaker. So nowhere in T4 fractals unless you are speedclearing. In WVW Vindicator might end up being run with double energy sigils because greatsword has far better cleave (cleaves 5) than sword does and Eternity's Requiem currently does busted levels of damage on unsuspecting targets.

Bladesworn would likely replace berserker on Keep Construct and Conjured Amalgamate due to burst but overall it would just be because of some extra DPS at the cost of CC. At the end of the day it's not interesting to play honestly (spamming Dragon Trigger is even worse than Decapitate). Because condi BS exists you would rather play that in fractals too. In competitive modes you would either abuse ammo ("Shake it Off", mainly) or not play it over spellbreaker.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Joxer.6024]

Screw it...I'm goin Virtuoso.  😉

[Puck.3697]

Eeeeeh. 

Vindicator is in a weird place as it's competing with renegade. 

Bladesworn will still be used as a banner slave alike berserker. 

That's a pretty hard toss up if your looking at playing meta wise. 

3 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

Screw it...I'm goin Virtuoso.  😉

Bladesworn and vindicator are both better options then that tho 😂😂

[Buran.3796]

   None. Vindicator can't compete vs Renegade or Herald in PvE, which have way more sustain and cc while having similar/better levels of damage. And Renegade can be played eithet mele or ranged, at will.

   Vindicator is fun if you're bored of curbstomping PvE with the Renegade and want to experience the thrill of being one-shooted by hard monsters after wasting your single evade in a build which to chase dps forgot to run energy sigils and the vigor traits to balance a problem which neither Renegade or Herald have.

[Joxer.6024]

13 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   None. Vindicator can't compete vs Renegade or Herald in PvE, which have way more sustain and cc while having similar/better levels of damage. And Renegade can be played eithet mele or ranged, at will.

   Vindicator is fun if you're bored of curbstomping PvE with the Renegade and want to experience the thrill of being one-shooted by hard monsters after wasting your single evade in a build which to chase dps forgot to run energy sigils and the vigor traits to balance a problem which neither Renegade or Herald have.

But people need to start thinking that maybe, just maybe, some changes are coming. Makes no sense to have new shinys and not allow them to shine. Reckon a change (not nerf) is coming to the 10 man buffing..so IF that was true, then where do these Elites fall?

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

But people need to start thinking that maybe, just maybe, some changes are coming. Makes no sense to have new shinys and not allow them to shine. Reckon a change (not nerf) is coming to the 10 man buffing..so IF that was true, then where do these Elites fall?

They aren't quickness or alacrity providers. Therefore vindicator is at best a heal spec (so competing with heal tempest, druid, heal scrapper which puts out quickness, healbrand which puts out quickness, heal mechanist which puts out alacrity , heal scourge, heal specter , and to a lesser extent heal renegade).

Bladesworn is competing with power BS (not condi), so there isn't much concern at all there.

[Puck.3697]

15 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

But people need to start thinking that maybe, just maybe, some changes are coming. Makes no sense to have new shinys and not allow them to shine. Reckon a change (not nerf) is coming to the 10 man buffing..so IF that was true, then where do these Elites fall?

wouldnt matter.

RR Renegade is such a Stackable build because it does 36.5k DPS While applying alacrity unlike other builds.

For New elites to shine.. it would need to be Nerfing.

they've also stated theres no changes coming til after EoD and given how long Anet take before launching balance patchs yah. PoF > EoD on Release its Pretty cemented in alot of cases currently.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Joxer.6024]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

wouldnt matter.

RR Renegade is such a Stackable build because it does 36.5k DPS While applying alacrity unlike other builds.

For New elites to shine.. it would need to be Nerfing.

they've also stated theres no changes coming til after EoD and given how long Anet take before launching balance patchs yah. PoF > EoD on Release its Pretty cemented in alot of cases currently.

Lol, like I said, Virtuoso looking pretty in pink more and more. But then one is not allowed to be "just dps" is one? Oh I give up.....I'll just stand around Lions Arch and look good.  😜

Edited December 16, 2021 by Joxer.6024

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Joxer.6024 said:

Lol, like I said, Virtuoso looking pretty in pink more and more. But then one is not allowed to be "just dps" is one? Oh I give up.....I'll just stand around Lions Arch and look good.  😜

Virtuoso is probably going to end up being mediocre (as in not terrible but not top DPS) in PVE except on Vale Guardian, but on Vale Guardian (for boon rip on a power class) you'd probably run StM chrono. Tipcat actually has a graph of StM chrono versus virtuoso.
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SmXV9Yr1QM
https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~Tipcat/5/

[Joxer.6024]

27 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Virtuoso is probably going to end up being mediocre (as in not terrible but not top DPS) in PVE except on Vale Guardian, but on Vale Guardian (for boon rip on a power class) you'd probably run StM chrono. Tipcat actually has a graph of StM chrono versus virtuoso.
from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SmXV9Yr1QM
https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~Tipcat/5/

Cheers for that!  I was actually just meme'ing about the Virtuoso thing but that was informative watching!  I am really keen for Vindicator to be a strong power option just to give us something of a different flavor, word is it may be fine for PVP/WvW (which I dont do, yet) but is gonna be not even mediocre'ish for PVE, and thats sad. I mean playable for sure, they all are...but not being asked to swap or just get the boot, that would suck.

But if that Tipcat can reach those decent numbers maybe Virtuoso wont be a meme.....(granted he/she is from CnD but still  😉 )

 

[Borked.6824]

Thread should be titled to "Give me all the reasons not to do sweaty endgame".  You guys are pretty on point with the reminders that Warriors are eternal banner slaves and that anything that doesn't provide quickness/alacrity basically doesn't exist. 

[Joxer.6024]

44 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

Thread should be titled to "Give me all the reasons not to do sweaty endgame".  You guys are pretty on point with the reminders that Warriors are eternal banner slaves and that anything that doesn't provide quickness/alacrity basically doesn't exist. 

Funny you should say that. I wondered the same thing....while I appreciate the feedback and info why is it that with every post, and not just mine, its like "support or go home"? Why is it such a deal breaker that makes it appear that every class/build needs to be a quick/alac/barrier bot or not play? Been seeing alot of this on  ALL the elites.......what happened to good ol dps? Yes, we dont want the dreaded "trinity" but people are kinda shoehorning folks into certain roles anyways.

And thats where I reckon ANET is going with the 5 man boons. Hopefully they will steer away from one class bringing almost everything and allow for a mix of many to which each has its own special flavor.

Anyways, digressing from my OP so will stop now else I derail. Basically I am just asking how its looking on a certain few so I dont put a crap of effort into a class only for the new shiny to really suck buttermilk and i keep getting told to play x or gtfo, thats just not fun (well for me its not)  😉

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Joxer.6024

[Fueki.4753]

If they aren't going to touch up the new specializations after the last beta weekend, I doubt any of them will become relevant for higher end PvE.

However, in regards to only Junksworn and Vindicator, I think that Vindicator's chance to shine is slightly less abysmal than Junksworn's.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Infusion.7149]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If they aren't going to touch up the new specializations after the last beta weekend, I doubt any of them will become relevant for higher end PvE.

However, in regards to only Junksworn and Vindicator, I think that Vindicator's chance to shine is slightly less abysmal than Junksworn's.

Preemptive nerf to firebrand (PVE mantra of solace, permeating wrath's lack of ICD, etc)/renegade (it was probably okay before torment changes but not it really isn't) and maybe a little bit to scourge DPS (via Demonic Lore bonus most likely) would go a long way. Couple that with a rebalance to exposed in fractals maybe.
At least that is the general gist of what I have noticed where overall feedback is leaning.

The only spec that truly is definitively better than what we have now for any given class is specter because you don't port or leap all over the place if you want to run condi and the damage numbers are also solid.
Harbinger can put out quickness but is constantly compared with firebrand ; first beta it did 45K+ DPS and people raved about it. Catalyst nobody knows what's going to happen with the quickness build , if the quickness build doesn't pan out and hitbox variance is high it literally has no use over tempest. Without the hammer 3 orbs' power DPS the average DPS is ~35-36K.
Condi mech is easier and more DPS but it isn't groundbreaking compared to condi holo. Vindicator, Virtuoso, Bladesworn, Willbender suffer the same fundamental issues: they're more DPS but not groundbreaking. Untamed is a trainwreck for instanced PVE as it is lower sustained damage than soulbeast currently (and has no moa stance) but it is probably going to be usable in openworld since broken breakbars amplify damage and 10% damage to healing is more efficient when you don't have a healer.

Who knows though maybe Arenanet will troll melee players and torment builds by having bosses that move around erratically like Tootsie in Dry Top or the Halloween boss harrower Veltan.

edit: I forgot to mention the heal/barrier mechanist , which is 5 man alacrity but needless to say it probably isn't replacing mirage in SH/Twin Largos , maybe if people are running specter+mechanist which are both 5 man alac at Matthias as confusion isn't as strong there (although mesmer typically reflect) but condi RR is still dominant. Heal vindicator could do some (not 100%) 5 man alacrity as well similar to core revenant but there isn't a strong proposition for it since you don't gain a healing weapon with vindicator and the heal scaling on the entire alliance stance is low such as 0.22 healing coefficient.

Anyway encounter design in EOD will be a major factor in specs' future efficacy even before class balance is considered.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Yumenei.7943]

We don't know yet what balance changes ANet is going to bring post launch. New elites might be further changed, as well as the old ones. I mean this is almost certain to happen. Renegade might be better than Vindicator now in PvE, but what if a big nerf is coming? Who the kitten knows that? Just wait and see... and if you need to make this decision now then stick to whichever spec feels more cool to you. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Yumenei.7943

[otto.5684]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:08 PM, Buran.3796 said:

   None. Vindicator can't compete vs Renegade or Herald in PvE, which have way more sustain and cc while having similar/better levels of damage. And Renegade can be played eithet mele or ranged, at will.

   Vindicator is fun if you're bored of curbstomping PvE with the Renegade and want to experience the thrill of being one-shooted by hard monsters after wasting your single evade in a build which to chase dps forgot to run energy sigils and the vigor traits to balance a problem which neither Renegade or Herald have.

I think it already surpassed herald in PvE. Once the dust settles (probably not at EoD release), it should become PvE power build in instanced PvE. OW will remain between herald and renegade. PvP, the over convoluted design + 1 one dodge + rev already semi existing limitation of energy and not choosing utilities, will not allow it to be competitive in PvP

Edited December 20, 2021 by otto.5684

[Axl.8924]

On 12/16/2021 at 2:23 AM, Joxer.6024 said:

But people need to start thinking that maybe, just maybe, some changes are coming. Makes no sense to have new shinys and not allow them to shine. Reckon a change (not nerf) is coming to the 10 man buffing..so IF that was true, then where do these Elites fall?

 

Its a tough pill to swallow but currently support wise herald is beating anything vindi can bring dps wise not sure, but i heard herald and rene is better so if they want vindi to succeed they better start working on figuring out where it should succeed soon cause if not i predict peeps will just play herald rene over vindi.

 

Virtuoso is probably going to end up being mediocre (as in not terrible but not top DPS) in PVE except on Vale Guardian, but on Vale Guardian (for boon rip on a power class) you'd probably run StM chrono. Tipcat actually has a graph of StM chrono versus virtuoso.

They better add mobility and or less annoying delays to virtuoso cause its pretty awful.

I like the idea of a knife thrower but i see no reason to bring it over other specs currently.

Chrono has dps for power mirage has condi  chrono has boons so why bring virtuoso?

Edited December 20, 2021 by Axl.8924

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

A spec that reaps "great" rewards on its own versus a spec that _can_ reap "spectacular" rewards with the proper build-up and comp/strategy around it.

I could be wrong, but the fundamental signs would point at Vindicator being the winner here. Of course, it does also depend on the final numbers.