Prestige items GW2 vs other MMOs

[Freya.9075]

I’m glad this game is different when it comes to rewards. There are enough games that makes it feel like a chore to get a shiny. A Mount you can only achieve once a year is insane. You talk like that’s a good thing when it’s not. A title is enough. When I worked on Aurora and vision I felt rewarded with a prestige item. Same with skyscale. It gives you a reward without killing the fun. If you want a game with more prestige items you should play those kind of games. And gem store items are not prestige. They are fashion 

[Chichimec.9364]

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

I think an important observations is that this is not a one or the other situation. In general theirs a continuum of different states between just wanting to show of , and not caring at all. (and the showing new shinies also lies on that spectrum their. 🙂 )

 

Ah, I think you are right. It's not either or but a spectrum. Ty.

11 minutes ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

I’d say it’s actually three perspectives:

1. Wants rewards with prestige and external value (players care that you have it and recognize your effort)

2. Specifically doesn’t want rewards with prestige/exclusivity

3. Doesn’t really care and only internally values rewards. 
 

This thread, and general debate, often attracts those in group 3, such as yourself. It’s not really a debate on caring or not caring though. The presence of rewards that are exclusive and prestigious are irrelevant to your gameplay. It’s about should we appeal to group 1 or 2, and 3 gets what they want anyway, more rewards.
This entire discussion is a moot point since Anet has designed their game to not appeal to players like the OP and that won’t change, but it’s helpful for everyone confused to consider that MMOs attract a wide variety of players. Going into content to get a sweet reward is still another player doing that content. Best to recognize that and ask what can Anet add that appeals to multiple camps.

Thanks. I like all of what you are saying, especially the last two sentences.

[Farohna.6247]

2 hours ago, Kaliwenda.3428 said:

You can only summon the mount once a year? 

Yeh I fail to see the appeal on that.  Once a year do you announce to the server, everyone gather round and admire my achievement?  I'd rather have something I can use daily since ultimately I'm the one looking at it constantly.  

[Zavijah.2695]

The only thing I consider Prestige are unlocking your Skyscale and hovering over the Peasants at Tequatl, stirring up dust. 

At least the first six time until you no longer care. 

The other, which I now since have is getting the Exalted Shoulders. The Be-All-End-All FASSHHUUUUN choice.

I have it on all my characters, dyed to match their specific class and outfit set up. I am very proud of my creations. 

But to answer seriously, Legendary weapons are the Prestige items. Lamenting about the cost of a mount skin on the BLTC is not even a factor of concern. 

[Ashen.2907]

15 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

For example, what do u get in gw2 for the achievement Realm Avenger.

For this u need to kill the small number of 250 000 players. 

Other MMos would give u a mount or a special item

gw2 gives u a title.

 

 

I agree with you that GW2's chosen reward for that achievement is superior to what you would get in another MMO.

[Trondel.2508]

Titles are much more of a subtle flex than a big ugly heap of pixels that some may recognize as a mount.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

You’re right that the deed itself is prestigious, but isn’t this a meaningless distinction? Like you can’t really separate the two. Unless you record literally everything you do, how do you prove you did the deed? The reward confers proof. Trying to splice the two is just pointless semantics. 

Olympic winners do not carry their medals around, and yet the people that do care know you're one. If you lose your medal, you're still an olympic winner. And if you see a gold medal without any info about it, you will never know how it was obtained (or whether it's even a genuine article). So, yes, the distinction is very important.

For example, one of my friends has an Oscar statuette decorating his bookcase. It looks very authentic (even though it isn't), but does not confer on him the prestige of an Oscar winner. Disassociated from the actual deed, it's just a nice decoration, nothing more.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Rasimir.6239]

10 hours ago, Borked.6824 said:

Exclusivity is directly tied to prestige.

That right there is the base of the whole discussion.

If you turn the argument around, this also means that you can only have prestige items if you gate the majority of the players from ever obtaining said items. Many MMOs these days work that way, offering prestige items as the main carrot. Those prestige items by nature are out of reach of a large part of the playerbase, for a variety of reasons.

 

GW2 is different. This game's reward system is about accessibility, not prestige. Most rewards are available through different means, including trading. If you win something you don't want, while I want it but can't win it, we can trade it (via the trading post). The system of "accessibility over exclusivity" rewards is one of the base pillars that GW2 is built upon, and it appeals to a large group of players.

 

Including more exclusive rewards isn't as easy as "just put more exclusive stuff in the game". It automatically excludes a lot of players from accessing said reward (more often due to real life restrictions than "challenge"). If too many rewards become inaccessible, this will have a negative impact on the part of the playerbase that favors the accessible rewards system.

 

It's not a question about people that care about rewards vs. those that don't care about rewards. It's a question about people that care about exclusive (prestige) rewards vs. those that care about accessible rewards. I honestly don't think the game can easily cater to both groups, so they will have to draw the line somewhere. Right now the line is drawn in favor of accessible rewards, and switching to a stronger emphasis on exclusive rewards will have a strong impact of the game's target audience.

[Danikat.8537]

15 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Key farming?

Isn't it a black lion chest rare random drop?

The chests are a random drop, but also tradable (and relatively cheap).

The keys can be random drops but they're absurdly rare (I think I've had 4 in 9 years) but they're also fairly common drops from map completion and guaranteed rewards from a few places, including the level 10 story, which makes it possible to farm them. The quickest way is to make a new character, use Tomes of Knowledge to get them to level 10, run the story and delete them, but that's limited to once per week. You can also do map completion or continue to the level 40 and 60 story (which also give keys) to get more if you have time.

[Dopamine.6324]

i think most prestige item are spvp gizmos, looks cool and super hard to obtain.
 

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

The chests are a random drop, but also tradable (and relatively cheap).

The keys can be random drops but they're absurdly rare (I think I've had 4 in 9 years) but they're also fairly common drops from map completion and guaranteed rewards from a few places, including the level 10 story, which makes it possible to farm them. The quickest way is to make a new character, use Tomes of Knowledge to get them to level 10, run the story and delete them, but that's limited to once per week. You can also do map completion or continue to the level 40 and 60 story (which also give keys) to get more if you have time.

Yeah. My question came from the post I replied to who thought there was specific holiday content to get it.

[Teratus.2859]

22 hours ago, Borked.6824 said:

Ship of Theseus my dude.  Some of you making these claims really need to think about what you're saying.  How is a mount and a skin different in any way.  The skin is the virtual representation of the mount.  The mount is just the word associating the pixels of "skin" with a real life "mount".  The prestige is the same in the skin as it is in the mount.

Skin is just a cosmetic effect/appearance.

The mount itself is the mechanical creature you ride around on.

You can have every skin in the game unlocked and never be able to use them unless you actually do the work to get the mount.

They're very different lol

[Teratus.2859]

17 hours ago, witcher.3197 said:

I don't think you undestood a single word OP has said.

How do you figure that?

Everything OP said about Gw2 mounts (which was just a single sentence) was completely incorrect.

You don't buy mounts in the gemstore, you buy skins for them, which are useless without the mount unlocked.

Every single Gw2 mount is earned in game by playing the game.
Some are given to you during story missions.
Some you have to pay some gold for.
And others involve a lot of time, gold and work, basically completing a bunch of achievements and quests etc to get them.

Even the skins themselves can be bought exclusively with in game gold, you don't need to pay anything for them.. it's just quicker and easier to and some of us actively like supporting the game this way.
And I generally agree that 2000 gems for a mount skin is way to high as well, I will only ever buy those skins with in game gold, I won't pay that kind of real money in Gw2 for anything other than an expansion.

Gw2 can't have mounts that are earned by doing super difficult content with super challenging restrictions simply because of how finely tuned mounts are implemented in this game as mobility tools.
Which is arguably one of the reasons why people say Gw2 has the best mount system in any MMO in the first place which is something I agree with very much.

An argument could be made for putting really rare and prestigious mount skins as earnable rewards for super hard and challenging content (which I know is what the OP was really getting at) 
But you have to factor in that creating these skins would require a lot of time and work to actually make.
And on top of that you also have to factor in just how few people even play the kind of content it is locked behind as well.
Why would Anet spend a great deal of time and effort making something like that if almost nobody in the game would ever stand a chance to get it?
Sticking them in the gemstore instead makes them monumentally more obtainable to the vast majority of the playerbase and Anet gets to make money off them which is good for the game.

I'm happy to admit that I would like to see a lot more mount skins become actual rewards in the game to earn, most of us actually feel that way.
But we have to be realistic about it, Gw2 just isn't the kind of game where locking those kinds of rewards behind super hard content is going to be a good idea.. there just isn't enough people playing that kind of content enough to warrant that.
This is exactly the reasons for why raids are pretty much dead and Anet is pushing Strike Missions instead.

[robertthebard.8150]

15 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

ofc its a you problem. what else can I post than my opinion.

Already said if one thinks rewards are good as they are more power to u. But it doesn't change my opinion that the game has an extremely low number of in game rewards vs the growing reward list from the gemstone.

And to explain more MY OPINION not using "WE"

I never saw anyone in the game rocking an mount or item and was thinking wow that person finished some content to archive that. The Best stuff comes from the gem store.  

Raiding Armor as exception, but that's years ago.

If u happy be able to buy everything in the TP or gemstore without playing, thats perfect for u. 

And with gen 3 legendaries one is able to buy those from the TP as well. 

So ya my opinion is that this is not a good direction for an MMO reward system. 

 

Except that, just as in your opening example of a mount earned through gameplay, that's where the mount in your hypothetical here came from, gameplay.  You cannot buy the mounts from the GS, only the skins to apply to them, after you earn them.

I don't have my griffon, I'm not sufficiently motivated that I need it to go get it.  I could buy every skin on the GS for it, and not be able to use them, because you have to have the mount first.  I realize that a lot of people play fashion wars as endgame, but those cosmetics don't add anything other than appearances.  I have more appearance items in my wardrobe from in game merchants than from the GS, and I can't be sure that I've ever actually purchased any outfits off the GS.  I remember getting one for free, a couple of years ago.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

8 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

How do you figure that?

Everything OP said about Gw2 mounts (which was just a single sentence) was completely incorrect.

You don't buy mounts in the gemstore, you buy skins for them, which are useless without the mount unlocked.

Every single Gw2 mount is earned in game by playing the game.
Some are given to you during story missions.
Some you have to pay some gold for.
And others involve a lot of time, gold and work, basically completing a bunch of achievements and quests etc to get them.

Even the skins themselves can be bought exclusively with in game gold, you don't need to pay anything for them.. it's just quicker and easier to and some of us actively like supporting the game this way.
And I generally agree that 2000 gems for a mount skin is way to high as well, I will only ever buy those skins with in game gold, I won't pay that kind of real money in Gw2 for anything other than an expansion.

Gw2 can't have mounts that are earned by doing super difficult content with super challenging restrictions simply because of how finely tuned mounts are implemented in this game as mobility tools.
Which is arguably one of the reasons why people say Gw2 has the best mount system in any MMO in the first place which is something I agree with very much.

An argument could be made for putting really rare and prestigious mount skins as earnable rewards for super hard and challenging content (which I know is what the OP was really getting at) 
But you have to factor in that creating these skins would require a lot of time and work to actually make.
And on top of that you also have to factor in just how few people even play the kind of content it is locked behind as well.
Why would Anet spend a great deal of time and effort making something like that if almost nobody in the game would ever stand a chance to get it?
Sticking them in the gemstore instead makes them monumentally more obtainable to the vast majority of the playerbase and Anet gets to make money off them which is good for the game.

I'm happy to admit that I would like to see a lot more mount skins become actual rewards in the game to earn, most of us actually feel that way.
But we have to be realistic about it, Gw2 just isn't the kind of game where locking those kinds of rewards behind super hard content is going to be a good idea.. there just isn't enough people playing that kind of content enough to warrant that.
This is exactly the reasons for why raids are pretty much dead and Anet is pushing Strike Missions instead.

I mean, perhaps the lack of super pretigious exclusive items is what makes most people not want to do hard content in the first place, Legendary Armor is the prime example of this, a lot of people only do raids because of it, some abandon it after getting all sets, some like the content and keep doing it, but this "prestige" item is what atract quite a few players to this type of content.

If we had some exclusive mount, outfits and gliders skins on high end PvE, PvP and WvW, maybe the interest for these modes would actually increase, but as it stands now, why put in the effort to do a Raid when i get way more rewards doing easier content like Open World and Fractals.

[Rasimir.6239]

24 minutes ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

If we had some exclusive mount, outfits and gliders skins on high end PvE, PvP and WvW, maybe the interest for these modes would actually increase

Maybe ... or maybe people who came here to get away from rewards gated behind specific content they might not enjoy would simply drop the game.

 

A change like that always results in people on both sides of the spectrum reacting. The question is: would people that let themselves be lured into such content by exclusive shinies outweigh people that drop the game because they no longer can get to the shinies they like through avenues they find acceptable?

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Olympic winners do not carry their medals around, and yet the people that do care know you're one. If you lose your medal, you're still an olympic winner. And if you see a gold medal without any info about it, you will never know how it was obtained (or whether it's even a genuine article). So, yes, the distinction is very important.

For example, one of my friends has an Oscar statuette decorating his bookcase. It looks very authentic (even though it isn't), but does not confer on him the prestige of an Oscar winner. Disassociated from the actual deed, it's just a nice decoration, nothing more.

omg, the strawman here is really getting hard to read -mainly because you probably really believe you're making any point with that. Olympics and oscars are broadcasted and internationally known, so it's rather obvious your random friendo slapping some random statuette on his shelf doesn't mean anything. The item is absolutely connected to the achievement and it's specifically because the connection between "the item" and "the achievement" is known about. Not only that, but you have no way of "acquiring a fake" in the realm of the game, so how is this weird comparison even relevant to anything here?

Edited December 16, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

I mean, perhaps the lack of super pretigious exclusive items is what makes most people not want to do hard content in the first place, Legendary Armor is the prime example of this, a lot of people only do raids because of it, some abandon it after getting all sets, some like the content and keep doing it, but this "prestige" item is what atract quite a few players to this type of content.

If we had some exclusive mount, outfits and gliders skins on high end PvE, PvP and WvW, maybe the interest for these modes would actually increase, but as it stands now, why put in the effort to do a Raid when i get way more rewards doing easier content like Open World and Fractals.

This is why I was disappointed when they added raids to the game. People say they want to do them because they enjoy them, but then expect them to have exclusive rewards to motivate people to do them. I get it, but from outside that "I enjoy raid" group, it feels like they need the game to push other people into what they like in order for them to enjoy it.

The one kid who likes Monopoly feels like his brothers and sisters shouldn't get the best cookies because they won't play Monopoly with him.

[robertthebard.8150]

2 hours ago, witcher.3197 said:

It's not incorrect, OP just assumed you have the deduction skills to understand the comparison, which you either don't or you're pretending you don't. GW2 mount system is not the same as the WoW or FFXIV mount system and you are trying to make direct comparisons as if that'd make sense. You're gaslighting OP.

Just so we are on the same page:

• In GW2, each mount is its own thing with its own unique features. You can customize these with skins specifically made for a mount type.
• In WoW, every mount that falls within a certain riding skill category is basically just a skin. A turtle with 150 riding skill is the same as a dragon with 150 riding skill. 

When OP says mount, he doesn't mean a tier of riding skill, or mount in a GW2 sense. He means a skin, other games just use a different terminology. Whereas other games have mount skins tied to both prestigeous and casual content, in GW2 every single mount skin comes from the store, except the base skin of each mount. In other games interesting rewards can help populate certain activities like high end raids or PvP because people will want to earn certain rewards. It makes people invested and it's healthy for the game, and you get a sense of accomplishment when you earn it.

In GW2 that motivating factor is missing. If a new player sees something cool, they can be 99% sure it's from the store and instead of having to invest time into the game to earn it, all you need to do is invest money into the store to grab it. For a game that prides itself on having a cosmetic endgame, this is incredibly damaging to the reward structure.

This would be great, except the OP straight out said you could buy mounts from the GS.

 

Quote

 

ofc its a you problem. what else can I post than my opinion.

Already said if one thinks rewards are good as they are more power to u. But it doesn't change my opinion that the game has an extremely low number of in game rewards vs the growing reward list from the gemstone.

And to explain more MY OPINION not using "WE"

I never saw anyone in the game rocking an mount or item and was thinking wow that person finished some content to archive that. The Best stuff comes from the gem store.  

Raiding Armor as exception, but that's years ago.

If u happy be able to buy everything in the TP or gemstore without playing, thats perfect for u. 

And with gen 3 legendaries one is able to buy those from the TP as well. 

So ya my opinion is that this is not a good direction for an MMO reward system

 

. 

This is patently false.  Yes, you can buy the skins, but if you haven't earned the mount through gameplay, you can't use them.

Edited December 16, 2021 by robertthebard.8150
quote tags

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

omg, the strawman here is really getting hard to read -mainly because you probably really believe you're making any point with that. Olympics and oscars are broadcasted and internationally known, so it's rather obvious your random friendo slapping some random statuette on his shelf doesn't mean anything.

Tell that to the person that brought the olympic medal as an example of a prestige reward first. I merely responded.

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The item is absolutely connected to the achievement and it's specifically because the connection between "the item" and "the achievement" is known about.

Indeed. But it's the achievement - and only that achievement - that carries the prestige. The "prestigiousness" of the item has nothing to do with the item itself. Thus, it does not matter if it's a title, armor/weapon skin, a mount  or something else.

Again, it't the deed that confers prestige, and not the item associated with it. And it's not a meaningless distinction. Because for a lot of those titles/items etc you can, for example, get carried. There's next to none that cannot be obtained in, let's say, less prestigious ways.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

But it's the achievement - and only that achievement - that carries the prestige. The "prestigiousness" of the item has nothing to do with the item itself.

Except it does, the achievement itself carries no prestige as you can't show it of which is the reason as for why legendary runes and sigils have no prestige to them.

The thing that makes something prestigious is the fact that the thing is question serves as a prove for something. The issue here is that for most things people can just spend gold on / get carried to whatever the prestigious thing in question is which makes them worthless as a "proof of accomplishment" for whatever the original challenge was supposed to be.

[robertthebard.8150]

3 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except it does, the achievement itself carries no prestige as you can't show it of which is the reason as for why legendary runes and sigils have no prestige to them.

The thing that makes something prestigious is the fact that the thing is question serves as a prove for something. The issue here is that for most things people can just spend gold on / get carried to whatever the prestigious thing in question is which makes them worthless as a "proof of accomplishment" for whatever the original challenge was supposed to be.

True enough.  Which MMO is it where this isn't true?  I was a progression raider for a long time, across multiple games, and one could be carried to all titles and achievements, including endgame gear, in all of them.  By this logic, all of them are then worthless, instead of prestigious?  How is one supposed to know the difference between "I earned this legitimately" and "I was carried"?  It's not like the titles or achievements, or any rewards associated with them differentiate between them.

[Faridah.8431]

On 12/15/2021 at 3:22 AM, Peter.3901 said:

That's why i disable everyone else, the amount of VFX + FPS unstable make the game unplayable for me, even with RTX 2060.

What CPU? CPU upgrades have given my most performance gains when it comes to GW2. If running something older, could be part of it. 

That said, do agree with the sentiment.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Tell that to the person that brought the olympic medal as an example of a prestige reward first. I merely responded.

That really doesn't make what you said have any more sense.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Indeed. But it's the achievement - and only that achievement - that carries the prestige. The "prestigiousness" of the item has nothing to do with the item itself. Thus, it does not matter if it's a title, armor/weapon skin, a mount  or something else.

Again, it't the deed that confers prestige, and not the item associated with it. And it's not a meaningless distinction. Because for a lot of those titles/items etc you can, for example, get carried. There's next to none that cannot be obtained in, let's say, less prestigious ways.

No, both are directly connected/intertwined and the item iteself already has an established meaning.

 

[vicky.9751]

the gemstore is pretty much their only way to monetize the game., and it's optional btw