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If you're playing WvW for rewards of any sort, you're doing it wrong.


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Rewards are integral to any area of the game per ANet's vision of player freedom to progress where they're most comfortable. WvW does have gear and material progression, but because players have a

I haven't heard anyone asking for comparable rewards to pve maps, mostly just comparable to their time and effort. Trading kills with another blob wouldn't be the most efficient way to farm, especiall

I actually disagree. While I think you should never put rewards before the content I don't think low rewards make it better. EOTM and dungeons are dead after all.  Like Kash said It's simply mo

1 hour ago, Jemmi.6058 said:

What currency in PvE has a weekly cap that you're referring to?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetite_Shard
"It is possible to earn up to 150 Magnetite Shards from events, boss attempts and kills each week"


https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pristine_Fractal_Relic
"which give a total of 15 per day if all dailies and recommended are done"

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6 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetite_Shard
"It is possible to earn up to 150 Magnetite Shards from events, boss attempts and kills each week"


https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pristine_Fractal_Relic
"which give a total of 15 per day if all dailies and recommended are done"

Ah, thanks. I have never worked to cap either of those, so I cannot speak to it.

My best comparison is my experiences in WoW and FFXIV to GW2. In FFXIV, usually you can be done your caps within about 1-5 hours per week, depending on where in the patch you're at. With WoW, caps are usually quite fast, and weekly lockouts tend to have some sort of mechanism to give the best reward quickly (i.e. Great Vault first chest is after 1 M+ run only, if you want to work for more you're capped at 10 M+ runs).

Conversely, in GW2, I spent hours on the weekend, every day after work and several days of waking up at 4am to get some time in before going to work. I did not cap my pips after all of that. There is no method to increase the rate that I get pips, simply participating and waiting for ticks, so it's not like I'm just playing badly for a slow return. Honestly, I'm pretty burnt out of the entire game mode after 1 week, and can't see myself keeping up with this for 22 weeks for legendary armor. If I were to just take it easy and play in and out of the game mode, the return I'd get is quite low, as the pips per hour increases drastically as you play more.

It is what it is, but imo it's a poor design.

Edited by Jemmi.6058
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Pristine Fractal Relics aren't capped weekly, but daily. You also can just do 3 daily fractals for 12; the 3 from recs are w/e and I sometimes just ignore them. That takes about 30m a day.

They're also not that important and are never going to be the bottleneck for anything unless you want Mist trinkets or Fractal God really badly. Granted, fractal God is an even more pointless grind than WvW stuff so I suppose there's a point there.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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3 hours ago, Jemmi.6058 said:

Honestly, I'm pretty burnt out of the entire game mode after 1 week, and can't see myself keeping up with this for 22 weeks for legendary armor. If I were to just take it easy and play in and out of the game mode, the return I'd get is quite low, as the pips per hour increases drastically as you play more.

Like what, getting more rewards for playing? Heaven forbid! 

Also I was talking about doing the real PvE caps. The dailies. All of them. Every single daily until there are none left for the day. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daily

Do this every day for a week, then compare with how it is to just doing WvW. Do they give more rewards? Prolly. Is doing WvW even an effort in comparison? Ugh.

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3 hours ago, Jemmi.6058 said:

 

Ah, thanks. I have never worked to cap either of those, so I cannot speak to it.

 

My best comparison is my experiences in WoW and FFXIV to GW2. In FFXIV, usually you can be done your caps within about 1-5 hours per week, depending on where in the patch you're at. With WoW, caps are usually quite fast, and weekly lockouts tend to have some sort of mechanism to give the best reward quickly (i.e. Great Vault first chest is after 1 M+ run only, if you want to work for more you're capped at 10 M+ runs).

 

Conversely, in GW2, I spent hours on the weekend, every day after work and several days of waking up at 4am to get some time in before going to work. I did not cap my pips after all of that. There is no method to increase the rate that I get pips, simply participating and waiting for ticks, so it's not like I'm just playing badly for a slow return. Honestly, I'm pretty burnt out of the entire game mode after 1 week, and can't see myself keeping up with this for 22 weeks for legendary armor. If I were to just take it easy and play in and out of the game mode, the return I'd get is quite low, as the pips per hour increases drastically as you play more.


It is what it is, but imo it's a poor design.

Although I agree that Pips could be better distributed, this goes back to my point of players controlling the income. 

I see it like this,
I do Drizzlewood pretty often, and 9 times out of 10 I can find a Squad doing the meta within a few minutes. If it were like that in WvW, it wouldn't matter as much if your Pip income was low because there would be very little downtime.
As it is however, there's a lot of time you spend not doing much and conversely not gaining much. There isn't always a zerg and there aren't always things you can do while alone or in very small groups.

Making rewards more dynamic could fix that, but any change that involves increasing the income runs the risk of giving too much power to the community. In PvE, you can't force a meta to begin before its designated time - in WvW, you can run laps and trade objectives forever. Give the players a reason to do it, and they will.

Again, I'm not saying rewards should be removed, reduced, or that WvW doesn't need them. Just that it's hard to get a balance where players won't exploit it.
EOTM was a great example of this where rewards were so lucrative and EXP gain was so easy that people just avoided each other to farm.

Truth be told, I was about to say to you-
If you're only doing WvW a couple hours a week, progress will be very slow. You'd be better off chasing your goals in PvE.
But then I realized that would mean ANet's vision of playing where you're comfortable isn't true.

Maybe Pips should just be normalized across the board rather than increasing with Rank, I don't know. 

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33 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

-snip-

Truth be told, I was about to say to you-
If you're only doing WvW a couple hours a week, progress will be very slow. You'd be better off chasing your goals in PvE.
But then I realized that would mean ANet's vision of playing where you're comfortable isn't true.

Maybe Pips should just be normalized across the board rather than increasing with Rank, I don't know. 

I was doing WvW as my primary game mode this past week, and GW2 as my primary hobby this week. It was more than a 'couple of hours'. I spent many hours on the weekend and 1 to 3 hours a day during the week. I physically did not have more time to devote to it. It wasn't like, ah I'll go play Halo, or I'm going to spend hours farming Drizzlewood, it was like, ok gogogogogogogogo farm wvw as much as humanly possible (as I said, I woke up at 4 am on more than one occassion to do so), and I still did not cap.

I also want to add that my point about capping pips was more a side-comment of my original post to your thread. I'm sorry to have derailed things. I'm just frustrated with this reward structure. I think it would do well to copy how other MMORPGs work and provide a significant bonus to your rewards in quick time-gated activities. WvW dailies could do it, or they could just reorganize it so that the greater reward is in the earlier tiers and it gets progressively less rewarding (rather than the opposite as it  is now). This allows you to farm more for more skirmish tickets, but also let those who don't have as much time to also feel rewarded.

Back to your original topic point, I do think that playing for the reward makes sense and should be encouraged. It's the carrot on the stick. It's a common game design that has been proven successful throughout multiple genres of games for over a decade.

I also think your original post had a pretty massive contradcition. You spent a long time complaining that people play for the reward and thus don't play for fun or enjoyment, but then you bashed on a subset of people for their chosen way of playing. If you want people to play the way they want to play for fun, then let them play for fun. If you want them to play a certain way, because it's the desired way for the game-mode, then you need incentives in place to do that (i.e. rewards.).

Edited by Jemmi.6058
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25 minutes ago, Jemmi.6058 said:

Back to your original topic point, I do think that playing for the reward makes sense and should be encouraged. It's the carrot on the stick. It's a common game design that has been proven successful throughout multiple genres of games for over a decade.

There is no carrot if it's too easy to get. You come in, you get your thing, you're gone. Do you want to play the game and have things to aspire to, or do you want satisfaction?

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18 minutes ago, Jemmi.6058 said:

I was doing WvW as my primary game mode this past week, and GW2 as my primary hobby this week. It was more than a 'couple of hours'. I spent many hours on the weekend and 1 to 3 hours a day during the week. I physically did not have more time to devote to it. It wasn't like, ah I'll go play Halo, or I'm going to spend hours farming Drizzlewood, it was like, ok gogogogogogogogo farm wvw as much as humanly possible (as I said, I woke up at 4 am on more than one occassion to do so), and I still did not cap.

I also want to add that my point about capping pips was more a side-comment of my original post to your thread. I'm sorry to have derailed things. I'm just frustrated with this reward structure. I think it would do well to copy how other MMORPGs work and provide a significant bonus to your rewards in quick time-gated activities. WvW dailies could do it, or they could just reorganize it so that the greater reward is in the earlier tiers and it gets progressively less rewarding (rather than the opposite as it  is now). This allows you to farm more for more skirmish tickets, but also let those who don't have as much time to also feel rewarded.

Back to your original topic point, I do think that playing for the reward makes sense and should be encouraged. It's the carrot on the stick. It's a common game design that has been proven successful throughout multiple genres of games for over a decade.

I also think your original post had a pretty massive contradcition. You spent a long time complaining that people play for the reward and thus don't play for fun or enjoyment, but then you bashed on a subset of people for their chosen way of playing. If you want people to play the way they want to play for fun, then let them play for fun. If you want them to play a certain way, because it's the desired way for the game-mode, then you need incentives in place to do that (i.e. rewards.).

I think like they mentioned earlier, their wording in the OP was a little stronger then their intention.

I agree that there should be an effort scaled selection of activities to so you can have the choice to go hard and hit up everything in a rush or play normally. One problem with that though, especially resting those thresholds on dailies, is that access to dailies like keep capture can take awhile depending on your side, the matchup, and your log in time and time zone. That's always been the primary complaint I've seen from people trying to knock out their Legendary. I think that's why there's some inertia to your progress so you're still bringing in some kind of haul even when the match is dead. 

I'd be down for having the bulk of the rewards come in earlier. I get Anet would be worried about dine and dashers to a matchup but I'm not sure that would happen. 

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I agree with the intention of the op. I know cases of players being totally happy when they finally got their gift of battle. I acknowledge that some players are coming through this channel. However, I feel bad for all the players who do not enjoy WvW and feel it as some sort of punishment to be here. The "repair wall dilemma" is in my eyes just a symptom of the problem.

 

My suggestion would also be to remove monetary rewards from wvw. Instead, one should get a wardrobe like in pvp. It should be basically gold-neutral. Siege can be purchased with wvw currency, the gift of battle can also be obtained with fractals, pve-raids,... I only want to see in wvw players who want to be in wvw because they enjoy the game mode and not because of any other reason.

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5 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

That's a bit far. I am doing some of the holidays but outside of that rarely go outside of WvW. No I don't want to go back to the point where I have to farm PvE to play WvW. 

I also do not want to. I want to make WvW cost neutral. So, you do not need any gold and consequently do not need to farm pve for wvw.

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What's the point of this thread? Other people play the game differently then I do so I have to complain? 
They already ruined a large aspect of wvw with the removal of many active ways to play the game, promoting braindead K-training as they only seem to listen to mindless zerglings when they make updates. If you are actively playing wvw tbh Grace period should never end. You shouldn't even need to worry about it even change it to damage to players alone sets it to 10 minutes. Its not even that rewarding to play and to max out takes as many hours as a full time job unless your rank is so high but then you don't even need the rewards at that point cause you are most likely full legendary. 

Everyone should be for better rewards when playing wvw so its better promoted, if its a "Cornerstone" of the game, what's the point of playing it if the rewards suck and are difficult to obtain? Yeah cause games that are unrewarding are totally what are played the most these days, looking at you New World and how it died faster then even I imagined. Or other area's of gw2 and how dead they are. 

If they going to make grace period as hard as it currently is to obtain, then they should do something like double the rate of skirmish tickets per week. 

Edited by Gorem.8104
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I can only speak for myself but as a mostly small scale player, I need to flip items on the trading hub to generate my gold for ascending gear and stuff like that and tbh, I’m tired of it. Some of my PvE friends have account values of several hundred thousand gold and are crafting their idk how many legendary. It’s one of the many head scratching things that adds up to the bulk why playing this game is just not fun anymore. My time has the same value as anyone else, so why is there still a huge part of the community that actively demands to cripple the game for some people? It’s kinda ridiculous if you ask me. 

Edited by Senqu.8054
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WvW reward systems have been out of balance since launch and have not been updated with the only exception of the pips/reward tracks (they share with PvP), but without the scope of what WvW is (compared to PvP). Right now, it can only be really saved to be self reliant, if the devs make very big changes.
PvP has pips and reward chests too, why isn't that an issue? Because PvP has the amulet setting, which allows you to change stats pretty much for free - but still awards ascended stuff and liquid gold as a bonus. A PvP player does not have to replace items for a material cost or with gold. Unlocking a few things via gold is almost not necessary. A few days ago I saw a thread by a PvP player that did not even know what to do with all the extra stuff he got.
PvE Fractals have account augmentation (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Account_Augmentation) for even better rewards playing Fractals, something WvW has never seen (e.g. lets give WvW Karmic, WxP and Skirmish Ticket bonuses via an Augmentation for WvW)
PvE Strike missions have a weekly chests (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigil_Emissary_Chest), that gives you rewards on top of your dailies at the end of the week, increasing the rewards for doing a all (including precursor weapons). Weekly chests for WvW players, where they can exchange some WvW currency, like Emblems and Badges could be a thing, but they are not.
Past possibilities of gaining WxP rank via a purchase have been removed (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_Experience#WXP_consumables), why not allowing us to buy those again?
Why can't we have those shipment boxes (e.g. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trophy_Shipment) or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic-Warped_Bundle for sale for Badges, to be able to have WvW players on their way to making legendary WvW armour, to earn the resources in their game type - and not having to go to PvE farms for that?
Why not making a change to the Enrichments (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enrichment), by combining the two current ones to a single one with +10% WxP and +5% reward track?
Why not realise that during https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Call_of_War the players actually see rewards coming in and you could make that adjustments to reward track gain baseline?
Why not create more WvW masteries for something useful, like an extra tier of supply mastery could increase the amount of materials gained from the synthesizers in your objectives, or add ascended food crafting materials to them (as WvW players often want those feasts for additional WxP bonus)?
Why not add a bonus to WxP gain to the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Canned_food, which is only lvl70 anyway, but could be useful to gaining WvW ranks more quickly, if Ascended food is not available.

You can't reward the social pillar of WvW with in-game rewards of course, but you can be mindful of what developer and game designer decisions do to them (e.g. the current strong focus on favouring "the large group/guild" in terms of what is rewarding to do and to be with, without thinking too much about the "single player" or small group/guild in that environment).

We can only hope that ANet really means it when they say "cornerstone of the game" and "all things on the table" when it comes to WvW after EoD launches.

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On 12/16/2021 at 11:31 AM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

That's not what most complaints about the "bad" reward system are about tho. I'm inclined to agree that exotic (stat selectable) and ascended gear should be more acessible via WvW, so new players who want to play the game primarily for WvW can skip the PvE part, if they want to do so.

However almost all complaints regarding the reward system are about tickets - or with other words - about getting easy legendary gear. Something that is a) completely optional and not required to be competitive whatsoever b) not supposed to be something a new player can scoop up within a few weeks and c) doesn't even provide long term rewards, because once a player has all the legendary gear he needs, tickets become pretty worthless.

Well, that is two completely different observations then because the two most common complaints I see is that people think they need to gear into ascended before they start to play commitedly (which certainly can be argued about) and that the raw gold income is trailing so far behind that you are left out of other sides of the game. I decided to give the whole "play the TP" thing a bit of a tongue in cheek but there is actually a serious discussion behind it and it ties into an overarching discussion about how WvW has been treated as a gold- and gem sink where we are restricted by gems in various ways that are incredibly unfair. WvW as a mode is a mode where gameplay overall is far more dependent on gold for variety of gear and indirectly for access to content through transfers. As long as they keep a gem-transfer system with a gold-transfer option that remains the truth, in theory. We can then discuss to what degree it impacts us as WvW players but the truth remains.

If this is about legendaries or top-end cosmetics (like the formerly less attainable sublime skin) then I would be inclined to agree with you. In fact, I think I am one of the few people who may consider the legendaries too easy to obtain or perhaps more accurately that I find the new armory systems to be quite problematic since they obscure the game's original horisontal progression. Legendary gear looks to long term make WvW less gear-variety and thus gold dependent but it also throws a much wider gap between the have's and have not's along with making sure there is no progression to look forward to beyond them. On that back drop they are far too easy to obtain now: I have legendary armor on three accounts now. It's the same discussion there as at the end of the last paragraph: It doesn't bother me too much for what I like to do myself but objectively there is a big looming problem here for Anet and their players' sense of progression. It's the same as with eg., group finders for dungeons and stuff, no one can deny its QoL but alot of people overlook what it does by emptying out maps so new players can not see the population active etc. The armory is a bite in the behind waiting to happen. The armory being more of a problem than the legendary items.

Given that stat-variety is more important for WvW than stat-totals, legendaries becomming normative is a much larger future social, balance and progression problem for WvW than ascended being introduced ever was. Once we go from expecting the DH to swap to FB over time to expecting it immidiately, new players are going to hear more about it and get more of both ends of the stick.

So all of this has much less to do with the likes of me and more to do with the new players' experience and progression as well what kind of players we eventually have comming into WvW. Perhaps there are players comming into the game to play WvW who feel diverted into PvE and then pick up expectations and routines from that dimension of the game when they finally come (back) into WvW? Having the game differ so much just isn't good. It isn't good for traversing the game and it drives wedges intbetween the playerbases leading to social issues.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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I think the big problem is that you can mostly afk to flip camps, or you can fight+defend+siege, and either way you'll get the same wvw rewards. On my world its usual to see 20+ players flipping camps, while we have outnumbered on the border. Why? Because there is 0 incentive to do more than that. Most of those players are actually quite decent roamers, there is just no reason to roam.

Saying "if you're playing for the rewards, you are doing it wrong" is IMO just ignoring the problem and telling the devs to ignore it too.

In both spvp and pve, playing well is rewarded by saving some of your time (you get more pips, resp. go through the content faster). Why is wvw different? Why does it make 0 difference whether you are contributing or not? I'm sure pips can be rewarded for active play, in some form.

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12 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I think the big problem is that you can mostly afk to flip camps, or you can fight+defend+siege, and either way you'll get the same wvw rewards. On my world its usual to see 20+ players flipping camps, while we have outnumbered on the border. Why? Because there is 0 incentive to do more than that. 

Meh, small minded. Outnumbered is gone, your option to finish faster is to get to higher ranks. Flipping camps and sentries (even roaming) are garbage for WXP gains. 50 camps to do your world ranker daily...You finish that in 2-3 fights (even on support if you press your buttons). 

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I wonder how many of the same players who claim they don't care about rewards in WvW are the same ones who love to brag in Map/Team/Guild chat about how many bags they got at the end of the night?  😆

 

Personally, I don't play WvW for the rewards, but it's nice to get enough each week to cover the expenses of playing WvW (ie. buying food, guild siege, etc.).  Right now the weekly rewards barely cover that...

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8 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I think the big problem is that you can mostly afk to flip camps, or you can fight+defend+siege, and either way you'll get the same wvw rewards. On my world its usual to see 20+ players flipping camps, while we have outnumbered on the border. Why? Because there is 0 incentive to do more than that. Most of those players are actually quite decent roamers, there is just no reason to roam.

Is capping camps not roaming? 

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