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If you're playing WvW for rewards of any sort, you're doing it wrong.


Shroud.2307

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10 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I think the big problem is that you can mostly afk to flip camps, or you can fight+defend+siege, and either way you'll get the same wvw rewards. On my world its usual to see 20+ players flipping camps, while we have outnumbered on the border. Why? Because there is 0 incentive to do more than that. Most of those players are actually quite decent roamers, there is just no reason to roam.

Saying "if you're playing for the rewards, you are doing it wrong" is IMO just ignoring the problem and telling the devs to ignore it too.

In both spvp and pve, playing well is rewarded by saving some of your time (you get more pips, resp. go through the content faster). Why is wvw different? Why does it make 0 difference whether you are contributing or not? I'm sure pips can be rewarded for active play, in some form.

Camps are where all, if not, most fights needs to be.  People who afk flip camps are heros. without camps you won't tier up anything, or have any supply to lay siege on enemy objectives, you can't even defend properly without camps/supply.

Supply chain is very important in WvW. Spawn camps and towers is where all fights should be, if your enemy advance to your keep, that's already too late.

Edited by SweetPotato.7456
spellings.
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5 hours ago, Vindikare.3678 said:

Biggest problem for me is that the reward system should work in reverse... higher ranks should bring less rewards than the newbie that joined the game mode recently

I think both approaches are incorrect. New players should get more rewards that are more relevant to them, like raw gold, while long-term players should get more rewards that fit their commited playing style, like more Mystic Coins, Clovers and other items for Legendaries.

 

One thing that would help would be to make it so PvE, PvP and WvW dailies are all separate, and each give the 2g bonus, so there's a reason for newer players to actually come to WvW.

 

The problem is the player base would never agree with this because "PvE'ers in my WvW is disgusting", while the population constantly dwindles, matchups become increasingly lopsided and we basically have no new blood being infused into the game mode. Its honestly become a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point.

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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If you are planning on getting all the legendaries through WvW...Armor x3 sets = 66 weeks, Rings x2 = 14 weeks, Back x1 - 08 weeks. 88 weeks minimum. 

As it stands now, are you going to spend a year and a half semi afk for 30+ hours a week? feelsbad, I dno I'd probably just play the mode if I was going to just afk in PvP or raids. But whatever. I'm sure Anet is going to buff pips after EoD. 

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On 12/15/2021 at 10:36 AM, Shroud.2307 said:

Additional note,
Maybe I'm crazy, but I think low effort should mean low rewards. If all you do is AFK and flip Supply Camps off cooldown, or lurk inside objectives to repair things, you're contributing basically nothing and in some cases even being harmful. Roaming may have the worst contrast of effort/reward ratio, but WvW is generally meant for group play - and thus participating in that is the most effective way to earn rewards. Join a open Squad or create one, throw on some boosters, and see what your group can achieve. Who knows, maybe you'll even have some fun.

 

Addressing the "low effort" point. The game lacks a way to value effort properly in WvW, and its crude approximations incentivize the wrong thing IMO.

A solo roamer defending a borderland that stalls much larger force and prevents them from taking objectives is doing FAR more than a zergling following the ktrain pressing 1. The roamer might even be losing participation if they die and don't manage to get a kill - pretty likely if they're fighting impossible odds like 1v10 at a camp, but by stalling that group of 10 for an extra 30s, it might give time for reinforcements to get to the nearby tower or keep. THAT is high effort. Being a zergling is low effort.

Real high effort is completely illegible to WvW's reward mechanism. It can't see the contributions that really matter.

 

Edited by coro.3176
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On 12/20/2021 at 12:56 PM, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Why? It’s just QoL.

Because it represents infinite sets of gear - taking away the game's horisontal progression as it was argued throughout the entire post that you qouted 😇

QoL can be problematic, the same was the case for dungeon finders and stuff like that. While QoL, it empties out maps and makes the game seem barren for new players who go through those starter maps. Even people just lounging about doing nothing around an L35 dungeon can be seen, can be seen in chat and might even run about the map and help out a bit while waiting.

Similarily, this is why GW2's focus on World Bosses with pre-events and stuff is so good, because it gives people a reason to go to a map beforehand, do some bits and bobs - and other players can see them and join in. It's part of what makes GW2 a social game (which ultimately leads into the discussion about why it has a friendly community or playerbase and so on).

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On 12/15/2021 at 10:36 AM, Shroud.2307 said:

Rewards are integral to any area of the game per ANet's vision of player freedom to progress where they're most comfortable.

WvW does have gear and material progression, but because players have a much more direct control over that progression, it needs to be over a longer period of time.
Ie. If rewards came as easily and significantly as they do in overland PvE, WvW would be the most efficient place to farm because people could organize to trade objectives, kills, etc., much like what happened with EOTM.

ANet may have some questionable balancing decisions in this regard, but the point is that if players were rewarded as significantly as they demand it would ruin any semblance of competition (which is already struggling due to a lack of purpose).

If what motivates you to play is rewards, there are plenty of options to pursue. The reason WvW should not be the place is because it's purpose is strategy, combat, and camaraderie. Rewards are there only as a means to progress people who choose to spend all their time in WvW, not as the focal purpose of playing it at all.

Additional note,
Maybe I'm crazy, but I think low effort should mean low rewards. If all you do is AFK and flip Supply Camps off cooldown, or lurk inside objectives to repair things, you're contributing basically nothing and in some cases even being harmful. Roaming may have the worst contrast of effort/reward ratio, but WvW is generally meant for group play - and thus participating in that is the most effective way to earn rewards. Join a open Squad or create one, throw on some boosters, and see what your group can achieve. Who knows, maybe you'll even have some fun.

I disagree. Rewards/shinies/leggys/achievements are the reason we get fresh blood in wvw. Once they come in only a low percentage of people become die hard wvwers.

Any reward increase must accompany ways to prevent cheating. Eg. You don't get rewards for killing the same player twice within 10 minutes. That said there are going to be players who cheat regardless. Instead of punishing 99% of playerbase for a few cheaters, just tolerate cheaters. Tailor rewards so that is not profitable.

Gold to gem conversion is the only reason gold farmers cheat in this game. Instead of Gold rewards, make it so that you can build leggy weapons/sigils/accessories (that are currently missing in this game mode) with skirmish tickets + emblems (avengers+conqueror). The weapons should not out shine the pve rewards, in fact don't make them shiny at all. Only people who are competitive will even bother to get non-shiny items. Because building leggys is actually a gold/gem sink there is less likely hood of cheating. Anet can always regulate it with # of skirmish tickets.

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i don't understand why ppl complain about wvw rewards, acknowledge pve is far more profitable, but refuse to do pve. at some point you would think ppl would realize anet won't make wvw as profitable as pve, and they would instead do some pve. its really not hard to grind a bit here and there. if you absolutely refuse to do pve, for ascended gear you can do reward tracks. they even added legendary gear to wvw. what the hell else do people want? at what point will they realize that by adding more and more rewards to wvw, it will start to be like pve (which they hate)? i mean with all the mindless wvw zerging being acknowledged by ppl, how much different is it then pve lol?

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On 12/19/2021 at 6:29 PM, Gorani.7205 said:

WvW reward systems have been out of balance since launch and have not been updated with the only exception of the pips/reward tracks (they share with PvP), but without the scope of what WvW is (compared to PvP). Right now, it can only be really saved to be self reliant, if the devs make very big changes.
PvP has pips and reward chests too, why isn't that an issue? Because PvP has the amulet setting, which allows you to change stats pretty much for free - but still awards ascended stuff and liquid gold as a bonus. A PvP player does not have to replace items for a material cost or with gold. Unlocking a few things via gold is almost not necessary. A few days ago I saw a thread by a PvP player that did not even know what to do with all the extra stuff he got.
PvE Fractals have account augmentation (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Account_Augmentation) for even better rewards playing Fractals, something WvW has never seen (e.g. lets give WvW Karmic, WxP and Skirmish Ticket bonuses via an Augmentation for WvW)
PvE Strike missions have a weekly chests (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigil_Emissary_Chest), that gives you rewards on top of your dailies at the end of the week, increasing the rewards for doing a all (including precursor weapons). Weekly chests for WvW players, where they can exchange some WvW currency, like Emblems and Badges could be a thing, but they are not.
Past possibilities of gaining WxP rank via a purchase have been removed (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_Experience#WXP_consumables), why not allowing us to buy those again?
Why can't we have those shipment boxes (e.g. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trophy_Shipment) or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic-Warped_Bundle for sale for Badges, to be able to have WvW players on their way to making legendary WvW armour, to earn the resources in their game type - and not having to go to PvE farms for that?
Why not making a change to the Enrichments (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enrichment), by combining the two current ones to a single one with +10% WxP and +5% reward track?
Why not realise that during https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Call_of_War the players actually see rewards coming in and you could make that adjustments to reward track gain baseline?
Why not create more WvW masteries for something useful, like an extra tier of supply mastery could increase the amount of materials gained from the synthesizers in your objectives, or add ascended food crafting materials to them (as WvW players often want those feasts for additional WxP bonus)?
Why not add a bonus to WxP gain to the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Canned_food, which is only lvl70 anyway, but could be useful to gaining WvW ranks more quickly, if Ascended food is not available.

You can't reward the social pillar of WvW with in-game rewards of course, but you can be mindful of what developer and game designer decisions do to them (e.g. the current strong focus on favouring "the large group/guild" in terms of what is rewarding to do and to be with, without thinking too much about the "single player" or small group/guild in that environment).

We can only hope that ANet really means it when they say "cornerstone of the game" and "all things on the table" when it comes to WvW after EoD launches.

 

One can only hope for a lot of these things ay, would make the game more inviting and fun for everyone. Would see even more people interested in wvw which would be nice. Now its as you say, best to only really play during wvw bonus weeks, cause it feels like its closer to how the base rate should be. Just get your wooden chests done and some dailies each week and only worry about going further when its a wvw bonus week, cause by playing wvw, you are actually choosing the path that gives less rewards then nearly everything else in the entire game for almost more effort. I mean we've all done this now for thousands of hours already, actively choosing to play an un-rewarding mode with our time. And Anets last response was only to make it worse for outnumbered people and made Grace period harder to obtain. We don't have alliances yet. So right now its worse. 
This "cornerstone" of the game as they put it, better see some more major updates. 

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I played WvW mainly for the rewards (skin unlocks via Reward Tracks, Gift of Battle, Legendary Armor sets etc), and had fun along the road with occasionally super exciting zerg fights and nice people to talk to on voice chat.

Now that I have gathered all rewards from that game mode, I feel significantly less inclined to get my 365 Skirmish Claim Ticket per week.

So I am not quite sure that people who are playing mainly for rewards are really doing something wrong. 😉

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I have the legendary armor now.  It's already paid dividends, since now I can alac-tank and hb-tank in raids much more easily, and the freed up slots let me create a viper firebrand and a griever weaver.  

 

Honestly I started doing wvw because of the awards.  I learned two things:  First, I could stand at the bank for hours doing my merch work and selling off my wares for the day.  Second that you get pips and rewards in WvW for basically doing very little.  This lead to me doing merch runs.  I would fill up most of my inventory with what I wanted to sell, then I'd run around capturing camps and ill-tended towers on the borderlands.  Occasionally I will zerg run, and in rare occasion I'd solo-capture a keep.  Between the fights, I'm selling all of my inventory off.  I then used these WvW awards to get the infusions to fully gear up my toons.  Before I had even begun to collect for legendary armor, I had a full set of +5 might infusions for most of my toons, and even a full set of +5 condition damage.  In hindsight, I wish I hadn't spent skirmish tickets on buying them, but what can you do?

EDIT: wow I can't believe I spaced this.  I also used all of that time to get gifts of battle, which I then used to craft legendary weapons for profit.

 

Edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493
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On 12/23/2021 at 5:54 AM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

i don't understand why ppl complain about wvw rewards, acknowledge pve is far more profitable, but refuse to do pve. at some point you would think ppl would realize anet won't make wvw as profitable as pve, and they would instead do some pve. its really not hard to grind a bit here and there. if you absolutely refuse to do pve, for ascended gear you can do reward tracks. they even added legendary gear to wvw. what the hell else do people want? at what point will they realize that by adding more and more rewards to wvw, it will start to be like pve (which they hate)? i mean with all the mindless wvw zerging being acknowledged by ppl, how much different is it then pve lol?

Well, i think there´s some explanation you can do. 
One point is possibly, that these players (that includes myself partially) just feel that PvE is boring. It´s like the same argument that comes from hardcore-PvE.players: "It´s always doing the same over and over again, where´s the challenge?".
From a WvW-main perspecctive (i spend at least 80% of my GW2-time in WvW), it is okay to do some events/event-chains etc once or twice in a row, but after that it gets boring.
When fighting other people, even though every fight has the same basic structure (for example: Zerg vs Zerg, Pirate Ship --> Rev-Spike --> Shade/Well-Bomb -->Push as a rough outline) the situation is always different (player numbers, squad constellation, allied and enemy commander´s personal lead style, variations in player skill etc.). 
Compared to a PvE-encounter (a meta-event for example) there´s more variation to it, and the factor of limited "predictability"  of the enemy. A PvE-enemy will ALWAYS do the same mechanics, a player will NOT. That´s one major difference between PvE and PvP.

The issue with reward-tracks and loot in general is, that the amount of effort (respectively time) you need to put into WvW is massively higher in order to achieve the same amount of rewards (converted into gold usually for easier calculation/comparison) than in PvE. And in addition to that, the supporters (even though their loot got buffed) still get way less loot from enemies compared to dps-classes. And if you then consider the possibility to have literally no enemies (for various reasons) that drops your income to almost zero because you are limited to reward-tracks (which give you 30 gold upon FULL COMPLETION at best according to fast farming community). 30 gold! for a reward track, that takes AT LEAST 8,5 hours (without boosters) according to gw2 wiki, in the case you are rank 10k, always get maximum pips AND always have max participation (which could become an issue depending on the match, especially for roamers). 

So let´s calculate a bit "optimistic" here and say, you get 60 gold in 8,5 hours (double the amount stated in the wiki): 
60g/8,5hrs = 7g/hr liquified and some additional gold from lootbags (which are not guaranteed)

in an average run of Drizzlewood, you can earn 19g/hr liquified (according to fast farming community) guaranteed

so even in the "optimistic" calculation with the doubled income for WvW, Drizzlewood alone earns you almost triple the income compared to the currently most profitable WvW-track. 

Also (partially repeating myself): in the calculation for WvW there are even factors NOT accounted for, that reduce the total of gold earned additionally such as: 
Food/Utilities that need to be crafted beforehand
Gearing up a character (which is pretty much not necessary for open world PvE due to event scaling and balancing)
availability of content
"difficulty" of content (WvW is in that regard probably more difficult on average)

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32 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

snips

again, i don't see why ppl would rather come here to complain then do an hour of pve every few days. its better then being broke, and too much rewards in wvw would ruin the mode. there are already bots in pvp, if you make wvw a gold farm there will be bots in wvw too as well as gold farmers who chase the gold rather then actually try to take objectives or kill players. if wvw needs a lil gold per hour boost then do it, but too much wouldn't be good imo. you can farm ascended gear via reward tracks as well.

Edited by Stand The Wall.6987
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