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Anet needs to move away from Open World design and make new dungeons.


Dromar.1027

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1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

So you much prefer content that's log in once every 3 months on average, play about 3 hours, rinse repeat?

+ or - a bit of time, but this is exactly what progressive raiding guilds do, across multiple games.  They come in, do the raid, if it has a lockout, they leave until that's over, rinse and repeat until they beat the raid on it's highest difficulty, and then leave for the next game.  If several games release at the same time, and have lockouts, they hit each game on a different day, and they aren't sticking around to play anything else, as a group.

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21 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

based on what measure? What data are you using to make this conclusion?

The ACTUAL answer is:  well enough to still be here serving its customers. Any guess about how well that is ... is just a guess. 

If the primary goal of the game was not to support a business, then sure, that would be the real the question. The REAL question is if the game is going to support a business that investors have their money in. If catering to the cosmetic grinder niche is what does that ... then there isn't an argument to be made for Anet not to do it. 

Top MMOs in 2021 - MMO Populations & Player Counts (mmo-population.com)

 

We can quibble amount metrics - but you can see GW2 is pretty far down the list.  So sure they are still "alive" but they are not very successful.  it's the same story if you look at quarterly income and so on..

 

So sure they are still alive but if you are an investor in this space you would like your company to do better. A game like Final Fantasy XIV has gotten to the top of the charts with instanced content and a holy trinity.  And honestly the buzz was pretty weak with that game.

 

Even looter shooters like Warframe and Destiny have tons more instanced content.  Guild Wars I was I believe almost entirely instanced content.  

 

Guild Wars II did a really nice job with their open world content.  Silverwastes is probably the best zone they have ever created and is better then any other games open world content that I am aware of..

 

But they are well short of expectations.  And this is despite having really excellent combat, great ui, tremendous art work,  great music, a business model that is not pay to win but still free to play, a well designed economy etc.

 

With all this they never really could match the initial hype which was MASSIVE at the time. I played this game in the Beta.  The excitement for this game was much bigger then New World or FFXIV or SWTOR.  As far as excitement goes only WoW surpassed it.


And the beta was good too. Make no mistake.. they were on track to make a splash.  This idea that GW2 was always a niche player and that they shouldn't stray from their ow cosmetic grind niche is just hogwash.

 

They need to give their other game modes some love before its too late. Development costs money and I have no doubt they had to dip into some ncsoft money to pull of this expansion.

 

If they continue to make less money and are smaller segement of the industry with each passing year - they will go into maintence mode.  So its critical they make a bigger splash and bring back some players who have moved on.  And one way they can do this is by catering to some of the weaker game modes.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

Top MMOs in 2021 - MMO Populations & Player Counts (mmo-population.com)

 

We can quibble amount metrics - but you can see GW2 is pretty far down the list. 

You are aware, of course, that most of the data here is just guesstimates, that are quite often far off the mark?

Most of the games on the list don't release their player numbers anymore, and haven't been doing it for years (if they were even ever doing it in the first place, which most didn't). At best, you can sometimes get some "total subscription/total registered account" numbers, which aren't a whole picture even at best times.

And all of that is for the "total subscription/account" numbers. When we go into active accounts the situation gets even more uncertain, because those numbers are just simply never released to the public. And lot of "estimation" methods sites use are just plain bad, mostly because they keep using the same methodology for every single game, without considering how those are different. For example, estimation involving social site presence (something that is part of practically every guesstimation methodology) will never work equally well for all games - some will be overrepresented on social sites compared to their actual population, while others will go the other way. Some will be more present primarily on some select sites, but with weaker presence on others (with the exact breakdown of those different for each game).

So, if you want to use this list you brought up as an argument for anything, you'd better be able to prove that their data is reliable. Which you can't, because it is not.

Notice, that this does not automatically mean it's untrue - it is after all possible they might have guessed right for at least some of the titles. Problem is, you don't know for which. Nor do you know how badly they missed the mark on others.

As a completely side comment, i'm really curious what decides how high the game is on that list. I.E Guild Wars 2 is at position 15, with 556,977 estimated active players. This is below Warframe, at position 13, with 549,550 active players (which is lower than GW2 count), So maybe they used total numbers here? Warframe is estimated at 28,923,689 total accounts, which is above 14,657,280 estimated for GW2. Both of those numbers are however higher than the estimated total accounts of Black Desert Online at position 10 (with 11,053,607 estimated accounts total). So, which one is it?

Why is New World above Paths of Exile? Why is WoW classic above Destiny 2? I have no idea. Do you?

Even if we assume all those numbers are true (which is highly doubtful), the site is still a real mess. You might want to rethink basing your opinions on such unreliable sources.

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9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sounds like you are describing instanced content here. 

outside of achievements and farming, what exactly does each living  world episode give us in terms of content?

Maps you can do in a couple hours including the map meta.  A story that can be done in a handful of hours.  The only repeatable content are the map metas, which all lead up to a boss of some sort, and achievements. 

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8 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

Top MMOs in 2021 - MMO Populations & Player Counts (mmo-population.com)

 

We can quibble amount metrics - but you can see GW2 is pretty far down the list.  So sure they are still "alive" but they are not very successful.  it's the same story if you look at quarterly income and so on..

 

So sure they are still alive but if you are an investor in this space you would like your company to do better. A game like Final Fantasy XIV has gotten to the top of the charts with instanced content and a holy trinity.  And honestly the buzz was pretty weak with that game.

 

Even looter shooters like Warframe and Destiny have tons more instanced content.  Guild Wars I was I believe almost entirely instanced content.  

 

Guild Wars II did a really nice job with their open world content.  Silverwastes is probably the best zone they have ever created and is better then any other games open world content that I am aware of..

 

But they are well short of expectations.  And this is despite having really excellent combat, great ui, tremendous art work,  great music, a business model that is not pay to win but still free to play, a well designed economy etc.

 

With all this they never really could match the initial hype which was MASSIVE at the time. I played this game in the Beta.  The excitement for this game was much bigger then New World or FFXIV or SWTOR.  As far as excitement goes only WoW surpassed it.


And the beta was good too. Make no mistake.. they were on track to make a splash.  This idea that GW2 was always a niche player and that they shouldn't stray from their ow cosmetic grind niche is just hogwash.

 

They need to give their other game modes some love before its too late. Development costs money and I have no doubt they had to dip into some ncsoft money to pull of this expansion.

 

If they continue to make less money and are smaller segement of the industry with each passing year - they will go into maintence mode.  So its critical they make a bigger splash and bring back some players who have moved on.  And one way they can do this is by catering to some of the weaker game modes.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

True when you looking on google trends no game comes on the hype Gw2 had at release but the problem is see a bit different more complicated. HoT wasn't what it should have been basically there were too many different teams with different visions of the game in charge of development for Gw2 over time .

 

You can see that how they flip-flopped in decision about condis and balance also how they stopped further develop content only to recreate it under new name. Actually we know that teams come and went for Arena.NET also for balance there is not one team but 2 one is the system team and another just change numbers and they don't see to agree with each other at least sometimes.

 

 HoT problem was, it kinda wanted to get the hardcore players and it was and is in contradiction to Gw2 is or it should been. Actually this is not what I'm saying this what my buddy says who had one chance to interview Mike O'Brien which to make it short O'Brien said Gw2 will be very casual friendly similar to Gw1 . He had this on video but can't find it anymore.

 

On google trend you can see there was a bit of hype pre HoT but when it released Gw2 became cooled coffee so to speak and other MMOs moved past it.

 

What others MMO makes so successful to say it simply is either really easy to join in group content or/and make kinda optional like in Final Fantasy. Which let my realize most problems in-game in GW2  comes from trying to imitate Wow as a community and as a game. (If I didn't knew it better I also would give this a confused simile D)

   
Edited by Lord of the Fire.6870
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3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You are aware, of course, that most of the data here is just guesstimates, that are quite often far off the mark?

Most of the games on the list don't release their player numbers anymore, and haven't been doing it for years (if they were even ever doing it in the first place, which most didn't). At best, you can sometimes get some "total subscription/total registered account" numbers, which aren't a whole picture even at best times.

And all of that is for the "total subscription/account" numbers. When we go into active accounts the situation gets even more uncertain, because those numbers are just simply never released to the public. And lot of "estimation" methods sites use are just plain bad, mostly because they keep using the same methodology for every single game, without considering how those are different. For example, estimation involving social site presence (something that is part of practically every guesstimation methodology) will never work equally well for all games - some will be overrepresented on social sites compared to their actual population, while others will go the other way. Some will be more present primarily on some select sites, but with weaker presence on others (with the exact breakdown of those different for each game).

So, if you want to use this list you brought up as an argument for anything, you'd better be able to prove that their data is reliable. Which you can't, because it is not.

Notice, that this does not automatically mean it's untrue - it is after all possible they might have guessed right for at least some of the titles. Problem is, you don't know for which. Nor do you know how badly they missed the mark on others.

As a completely side comment, i'm really curious what decides how high the game is on that list. I.E Guild Wars 2 is at position 15, with 556,977 estimated active players. This is below Warframe, at position 13, with 549,550 active players (which is lower than GW2 count), So maybe they used total numbers here? Warframe is estimated at 28,923,689 total accounts, which is above 14,657,280 estimated for GW2. Both of those numbers are however higher than the estimated total accounts of Black Desert Online at position 10 (with 11,053,607 estimated accounts total). So, which one is it?

Why is New World above Paths of Exile? Why is WoW classic above Destiny 2? I have no idea. Do you?

Even if we assume all those numbers are true (which is highly doubtful), the site is still a real mess. You might want to rethink basing your opinions on such unreliable sources.

Some  raw datas are available like google trend and steam chats how they process them is their secret but this works similar how election forecast works  and similar to this you can't say what tomorrow people will play.

 

You must also see f2p MMo have naturally higher Ac number then ones which aren't.

Those numbers are still rouge estimates but they are so that they are consistent with all available raw data.

 

Edit: We can argue about numbers days but what it definitely says is that as content creator who wants to make video or stream MMOs . You can only go worse when you pick an MMO from Gamigo or Gameforge for it because only those performing worse then GW2 on google.

Edited by Lord of the Fire.6870
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3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Some  raw datas are available like google trend and steam chats how they process them is their secret but this works similar how election forecast works  and similar to this you can't say what tomorrow people will play.

Election forecasts put a lot of effort into trying to pick an unbiased and representative sample. Google trends and going with social site data are not that sample. And steam charts are good only for steam games - they are completely worthless for games that are not on steam, and are only marginally relevant for games that have both steam and non-steam versions.

Like i said, all this involves a lot of guessing based on very, very incomplete (and often heavily biased) data, that sometimes is spot-on, but at other times is wildly off the mark. And the issue is we never really know which is which.

 

3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

You must also see f2p MMo have naturally higher Ac number then ones which aren't.

Looking at the top 2 positions, no, i do not see that 😛

 

3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Those numbers are still rouge estimates but they are so that they are consistent with all available raw data.

Maybe they are, but that raw data is in itself very incomplete and unreliable.

3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Edit: We can argue about numbers days but what it definitely says is that as content creator who wants to make video or stream MMOs . You can only go worse when you pick an MMO from Gamigo or Gameforge for it because only those performing worse then GW2 on google.

Yes. Notice though that this is also a very biased method. I did mention that some games lend themselves better to social sites than others. And so it happens that GW2 is not a game with good twitch representation - it never had one, even in the initial wave when it still had upward of 3 millions of active players.

On the other hand, the game at the top as far as this is concerned - WoW - seems to be doing wose and worse partially thanks to those content creators, that made all the problems the game was suffering from more known, accelerating the decay.

And there's a phenomenon of New World, that seems to be close to the top of the list that i was commenting on, with high media presence... and with most content creators i see not being very positive about it at all.

There's a lot of blazing meteors on MMORPG scene. There's far less games that maintain stable presence. GW2 seems to be in that latter group, and it even seems to be recovering lately after the massive post-ls4 slump it went through (which was in reality so bad it might have already killed many other, less stable games). Granted, this recovery is still very conditional and can be easily reversed if EoD will end up being disappointing, but that is not something we can predict now.

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21 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

outside of achievements and farming, what exactly does each living  world episode give us in terms of content?

Maps you can do in a couple hours including the map meta.  A story that can be done in a handful of hours.  The only repeatable content are the map metas, which all lead up to a boss of some sort, and achievements. 

If you have a point ... just make it. Seems to me you are trying to say there isn't much content in OW because you can do it in a few hours ... that's NOT any different than instanced group content. Seems like another case of downplaying OW content because it doesn't play to your narrative of how awesome instanced group content is.

I'm just going to remind you that WHATEVER the content OW gives in GW2 is certainly more appealing to most people in this game compared to instanced content because that's what is relevant here.

 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

If you have a point ... just make it. Seems to me you are trying to say there isn't much content in OW because you can do it in a few hours ... that's NOT any different than instanced group content. Seems like another case of downplaying OW content because it doesn't play to your narrative of how awesome instanced group content is.

I'm just going to remind you that WHATEVER the content OW gives in GW2 is certainly more appealing to most people in this game compared to instanced content because that's what is relevant here.

 

The difference is, instanced content doesn't overstay its welcome and I can choose who I want to play with (So I don't have to deal with trolls and people who just want a hard carry while they watch netflix or whatever).  I don't have to spend 3 hours doing a map meta to get to a boss that takes longer than more raid bosses despite having ~100 players (Who also, in some way, do less total DPS than a comped raid squad).

Also, y'know that FF14's story is more popular than its dungeons, right?  .. But that doesn't stop squenix from just making more instanced content and dungeons with their releases.  How about that open world in ESO?  The maps and quest system in there is pretty popular.  .. But there's usually a new  dungeon or two every chapter  with the occasional new trial (That game's raids).  So, why is it that competitors can release a steady cadence of content suitable for everyone (Even if a majority of it is open world) but it's okay for ANet to sit here and reinvent the wheel several different times and drop the ball on steady content releases for instanced game modes  (Fractals were supposed to be every other LW.  Raids were planned for six a year, then half that, then maybe one a year.)

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27 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

The difference is, instanced content doesn't overstay its welcome and I can choose who I want to play with (So I don't have to deal with trolls and people who just want a hard carry while they watch netflix or whatever).  I don't have to spend 3 hours doing a map meta to get to a boss that takes longer than more raid bosses despite having ~100 players (Who also, in some way, do less total DPS than a comped raid squad).

 

Sure ... but what you like or don't about OW content has nothing to do with how it regarded by people who play the game as a whole. So again ... this isn't an argument about telling someone who likes oranges why apples are better. WHATEVER the content OW gives in GW2 ... obviously LOTS of people really like that content. OBVIOUSLY Anet is developing that content for those people. 

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Also, y'know that FF14's story is more popular than its dungeons, right? 

Well, if we were talking about FF14 ... then that would be relevant. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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22 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... but what you like or don't about OW content has nothing to do with how it regarded by people who play the game as a whole. So again ... this isn't an argument about telling someone who likes oranges why apples are better. WHATEVER the content OW gives in GW2 ... obviously LOTS of people really like that content. OBVIOUSLY Anet is developing that content for those people. 

 

Well you know that's not true at all.   It's about not ignoring an  entire subset of content in favor of one type of content.  Imagine if you went to a theme park at its opening.  It had the standard affair with  roller-coasters (Dungeons), Ferris wheels (Open world), and Carnival Game  attractions (Living Word; specifically season 1).  Yeah, it's fun for a bit, sucks your money out, but then when they add no new roller-coasters with one being out most of the time or breaking down, barely touch Ferris wheels, and just add more Carnival games,  it starts to grow bland.   It gets frustrating when they promise new rides that never come or  are delivered later than promised if at all.

 

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Well, if we were talking about FF14 ... then that would be relevant. 

You're ignoring the point.  Their competitors are doing what they say they can't do & one of them has a smaller team providing content for everyone.  This is akin to going to a grocery store and wondering why this one doesn't provide oranges while the other two nearby can regularly stock them.

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1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Well you know that's not true at all.  

Yes we do know it's true ... you think Anet just creates all this OW content because no one likes it? Like WHAT? 🤔 You think Anet stopped making raids because it's super popular and loved by all players? Again, your narrative is simply not matching the reality of what has happened in the game. This is a business and Anet is going to create whatever content that people want so they spend money on the game. If you don't think that's OW content ... you don't seem to get how the business works. 

Your point that competitors are doing something isn't relevant here. GW2 isn't those games and Anet isn't those developers. 

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17 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Right, because GW2 exists in a vacuum and no MMO in history has ever bled players to another MMO when their current one  doesn't provide proper content variety.🙄

It doesn't exist in a vacuum ... but it certainly doesn't need to follow some template established by other MMOs and their developers to be successful either. I would even argue that not following that template is what makes this game more successful than it would be otherwise because believe it or not ... there IS a market for people who just want to casually play OW content and GW2 serves that market VERY well.

Again, I'm not arguing we don't need content variety ... so that's a ridiculous path I'm not going to let you take me down. I get it ... you think you get more instanced content if you can convince Anet that you have predicted the failure of the game if it focuses on OW content. I don't get that strategy ... you seem to be preaching to the choir here and that view isn't supported by the history of the game. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It doesn't exist in a vacuum ... but it certainly doesn't need to follow some template established by other MMOs and their developers either. I would even argue that not following that template is what makes this game successful. 

Again, I'm not arguing we don't need content variety ... so that's a ridiculous path I'm not going to let you take me down. I get it ... you think you get more instanced content if you predict the failure of the game if it focuses on OW content. I don't get that strategy ... you seem to be preaching to the choir here and that view isn't supported by the history of the game. 

A template that's been proven more successful than whatever ANet is following currently. 

But hey, you haven't understood a  kitten thing I've said, so here, let me  make this starkly clear for you; I predict the game (Specifically GW2) will fail if all it does is focus on a single type of content. This includes just developing raids, dungeons, fractals, etc, or just developing story.  A piece of content can be the majority focus, but if that majority focus starts to overtake other areas and aspects of the game,  that's  when the game will suffer for it and this has happened in the past already.  Single content focus only really works in games  that are single player or competitive.  Neither of which are what GW2 is.

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41 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

A template that's been proven more successful than whatever ANet is following currently. 

OK ... but that doesn't change that Anet is going to do their business the way they want/ It doesn't change that what is successful for other companies might not be for Anet. The insane part of the discussion is that you are ignoring the fact that this game has established playerbase. Like somehow if Anet just changed how they did things like FF14 .. .they would just instantly be more successful ... JUST because FF14 is successful? That's crazy. If that was true, then there wouldn't BE competition on MMOs. The fact is that GW2 offers something in the market that is attractive to people that isn't in other MMO's. 

Again ... different demographic, different game, different business model ... maybe you think Anet could do better if tthey did GW2 more like FF14 better than FF14 deves could ... I have no doubt they wouldn't because if the people that play GW2 want FF14, they just go play that game. 

Anet has the data that tells them what is successful content and what isn't. People speculating that 'casual content grinder' can't work as an MMO are being very unaware of why people play this game. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but that doesn't change that Anet is going to do their business the way they want/ It doesn't change that what is successful for other companies might not be for Anet. I mean, if the content in the cash stop isn't an indication to you want kind of people drop dollars on this game, then there isn't really much point in continuing this discussion.

Again ... different demographic, different game, different business model ... maybe you think Anet could do better if tthey did GW2 more like FF14 better than FF14 deves could ... I have no doubt they wouldn't because if the people that play GW2 want FF14, they just go play that game. 

Anet has the data that tells them what is successful content and what isn't. People speculating that 'casual content grinder' can't work as an MMO are being very unaware of why people play this game. 

No, again, read the following:

I predict the game (Specifically GW2) will fail if all it does is focus on a single type of content.

 

I use ESO and FF14 as examples of MMOs who, while having a big focus on the single player story content, has no issues delivering on instanced content both challenging or otherwise.  ESO also, (I believe at one point or currently) has a smaller team than GW2.  So there's almost no reason for ANet not to do the same if the people they were hiring on for those side projects were hired on to just work on GW2.

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5 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

No, again, read the following:

I predict the game (Specifically GW2) will fail if all it does is focus on a single type of content.

Good thing GW2 have lots of different kinds of content then. Again, why are you arguing with me about this? I'm simply not going to agree this is true based on speculations of how other games experience map onto Anet and GW2 ... because they don't. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

WHATEVER the content OW gives in GW2 ... obviously LOTS of people really like that content. OBVIOUSLY Anet is developing that content for those people. 

The issue here is that many of these things "OW gives but instanced content doesn't" are not inherent to the OW content structure so the contclution of "people just like OW content more and thus that's where the main part of the efforts of the development team should be" is a faulty one.

I have no doubt that instanced content could be just as popular as OW content if they would actually develop it with the preferences (and performance level) of the average player in mind.

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3 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

The issue here is that many of these things "OW gives but instanced content doesn't" are not inherent to the OW content structure so the contclution of "people just like OW content more and thus that's where the main part of the efforts of the development team should be" is a faulty one.

 

Oh absolutely.  You can get what living world delivers in single player games and there are a bunch of multi-player games (Even other MMOs) that deliver on a living world concept.

 

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I have no doubt that instanced content could be just as popular as OW content if they would actually develop it with the preferences (and performance level) of the average player in mind.

Which is what I've been saying for a while.  Their last excuse is that they need to lay the groundwork but what  were the past 9 years of development and such even for, then?

But hey, this game is perfectly managed with absolutely zero issues on any launch.

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20 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Good thing ANet consistently develops that variety of content for everyone.

Oh wait, they don't.  An overwhelming majority of their releases are either gemstore or open world.

To be fair while they relative consistency putting out new OW content but the quality went really down hill fast.

I mean for season 5 the first map had tons of new and fun elements (Grothma Vally) the next one(Bojara Marches) had been already split in 2 and the content was already tiresome and events are still buggy and unexplainable.(Plant a banner)

 

Drizzelwood Cost introduced an amount of grind which is really alien for a Gw 2 Player and the rest wasn't actually OW with the DMs. I still don't have all s5 mastery point there because of this mess.

 

What really hurt is the expectation for EoD which basically says we only recycle Strike Mission which are already recycle map asserts. I can also see the same what Sir Alymer.3406  said which was this is not enough . I would actually even say the majority of the players who want challenging or competitive content are already on the lookout or found another game .(raids, fractals sPvP all no fun anymore)

 

 

Was I also must say yes there is a lot of stuff you can't copy& paste to Gw2 when it is about the success of other MMOs  e.g Destiny and Warframe is all about group content which you can join through an auto queue or manually even after the mission started   This has heavy implication you can't take a meta too seriously because of various reasons and a dps meter you can't have it in those games or people would rage quit all the time🤣.

 

Yes you can't copy that because gw 2 has also a lot of OW content and it isn't an 100% action MMO but you see can what went wrong during the development  of gw2 . I would call it too much Wow.

 

 

On the other hand ESO and Final Fantasy are much more like Gw2 but especially for FF14 I know there are also weak points like item spiral or the loot system from WoW which is really outdated or scarcity of housing .  The reasons why that is forgiven them is FF14 feels more like a complete game and they support consistently their content and yeah they have a fallback system for all systems which can or make problems.

 

The other way around as an Gw2 player I done the story I done all the maps, my main has full legendary equip what I have to do tomorrow except farming gold for the item shop?

Edited by Lord of the Fire.6870
I was so tired fixed some language errors
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On 12/21/2021 at 4:29 PM, AquaBR.9250 said:

This idea of the well design maps being "bad" or "painful" to navigate is from people that don't like to explore at all and prefer plane bland horizontal 2d maps where you just walk straigh everywhere you want, might as well put some mail quests where the objective is just talking to another npc, so you have no challenge at all

exploration was truly challenging in the old days. but this isnt the old days anymore. and its a game. 

there is no doubt, that hot cost them a lot of goodwill. 

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