Anet needs to move away from Open World design and make new dungeons.

[Goettel.4389]

Open world is where the game shines, don't mess with it.

Edit: I sucks at spellings ; - )

Edited January 10, 2022 by Goettel.4389

[yann.1946]

On 1/7/2022 at 1:45 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

I think there are some small mistakes. Yes other games with more instanced content are more successful. Doesn't mean GW2 automatically gets more successful by making more raids. They actually might lose players from the main target audience - if they shift their focus too other stuff too much (a bit is okay and I have meantioned that fractals are nice - group content where also casuals can easily get into it).

This is true, but we have no data to show this either way. (and the addition of strike cms suggests that they still consider instanced content worth investing)

On 1/7/2022 at 1:45 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

On the other side: Winning players from other games (that then play GW2 instead of the other game) - might be much harder than simply making a few new raids/dungeons. I mean: People can just stay with the other game. Unless GW2 offers something really unique. (And I don't think the combat system that unique anymore. Maybe back then in 2012.) So .. being a niche product can be successful. (Since like this ... the game has some USP - unique selling points - at least for the main target audience there there can be some stable amount of "fans" that will stay long term without needing too much special stuff. And buying some gems for the new skins sometimes.)

The game always had instanced content, so not having that was never an USP.

On 1/7/2022 at 1:45 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

We also have the philosophy ot not creat a gear treadmill. Which lots of hardcore raiders from other games actually would like to see here. (Which is an absolute no go for ArenaNet - something the main target audience absolutely dislikes.)

I agree that a gear treadmill is a no go for the game, which is good.

I do not think however that it are more prominently the raiders which like to see it. 

I would even say that for actual hardcore raiders the opposite might be true, as not having this treadmill makes the game in general harder (and easier to finetune.)

On 1/7/2022 at 1:45 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

Server costs ... should be not that expensive. The thing is more about profits and stuff like ROI (return on investment). You can still make profits ... but some generic gear treadmill game with endless instanced content might make more profi.

Main money here comes from skins I guess. From casuals that actually buy gems to buy skins from gem store. (Instead of trading gems for gold.)

Why are people under the impression that

a) casuals are more likely to buy gems.

b) that people buying gems for gold does not increase the profit the game makes?

On 1/7/2022 at 1:45 PM, Luthan.5236 said:

+ selling the expansions (not possible to buy them with gems). Once the game reaches a stable finale state it should be possible to still at least earn the server cost by the remaining players and some new players that still have to catch up on older stuff - wo might buy utility things (shared inventory slots, bank tab expansion) with gems bought for real money.

But that is not the state a bussiness wants to be in most of time. Investers want growth (which is one of the critiques people levy against capitalism). So just being stable is not good enough, although i agree it should be.

[Bakeneko.5826]

42 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This is true, but we have no data to show this either way. (and the addition of strike cms suggests that they still consider instanced content worth investing)

Raids being discontinued are not enough?

 

43 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

b) that people buying gems for gold does not increase the profit the game makes?

well... yes... they don't.... You are spending pixels for pixels, while money to gems is money to pixels. I don't understand, where you thing gold to gems is making profit for anyone.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

46 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Raids being discontinued are not enough?

 

well... yes... they don't.... You are spending pixels for pixels, while money to gems is money to pixels. I don't understand, where you thing gold to gems is making profit for anyone.

John smith stated ages ago that every gem purchased with gold is sold by another player who converted their gems to gold.  It is a ratio of gold in the pool to gems in the pool to get the cost and, time and time again, it has also been stated that when the ratio favors Gems-to-gold over Gold-to-gems people buy gems to convert to gold.

[yann.1946]

41 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Raids being discontinued are not enough?

No, because you made a stronger statement then: "adding raids will not add enough players" (which is what the discontinuation shows).

You said that raids might reduce the playerbase.

 

And obviously the devs think adding difficult instanced content is worth it, because they plan to have raid difficulty strike cms.

 

41 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

well... yes... they don't.... You are spending pixels for pixels, while money to gems is money to pixels. I don't understand, where you thing gold to gems is making profit for anyone.

The more gems are bought, the more gold you get for selling gems, iincreasing the total revenue.

 

As another example, free to play player (who never spend money on the game) will increase the revenue. As the more populated a game is, the more lickely people are to spend money on the game. 

 

[kharmin.7683]

3 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

 As the more populated a game is, the more lickely people are to spend money on the game. 

 

On what basis do you make this correlation?

[yann.1946]

24 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

On what basis do you make this correlation?

people who want to show of need people to show of to.

The more populated a game is the less dead a game feels, making it more likely people will keep playing.

[Luthan.5236]

Strikes seem easy to make. And challenge motes. Raids probably take longer - new map with lots of stuff to add/develop. (Different new bosses.) Maybe they just want to to some easy stuff that does not require too much work - hoping the fans of these game modes are satisfied. (But they never will be - they are the ones that want new content much faster then other types of players I think.)

Unless they get more of the "casuals" to also play raids ... it won't be worth developing them. I guess. And they probably tried this by just making raids - until they noticed it didn't work ... then they tried strikes. (And for strikes: You also have kill proof requirements and not that many groups in lfg - at least for the 3 harder strikes.)

I don't see how this will work in a profitable way - unless you can be sure a lot more players from other games are coming to GW2 or developing raids is turned into an easy/quick process that can be done quickly and regularly (with often new updates) by 1 person maybe. The existing playersbase ... seems hard to get them to play raids.

USP was (at least for me) to be able to play almost all stuff without having to look for groups in lfg or somewhere else.
WvW you just queue (or directly join of maps aren't full). PvP is queuing + a matchmaker. The PvE had instanced story and other small stuff. The only thing - at the beginning - were dungeons. Where you did not miss a lot ... besides some skins maybe. (PvP also offers options to get them.) And the story mode that was tied to your personal story. (They even changed the last step that required grouping for Arah for the story.)

I actually would say ... the gear treadmill is the sole thing keeping players in "classic" MMORPG (with tons of raids and gear treadmill) playing. Imagine GW2: You can get legendaries (armor) from other sources as well. Certain stuff might be raid exclusive ...

But once you have played them (and the PvE players that love raids might get their legendary armor mostly from there I guess) and finished gearing up ... no new incentive to play.

On the previous pages of the thread Hume mentioned something like "getting more players without losing existing players". Imo going for raids seriously would need a gear treadmill - if you really wanted to get players from other MMORPG and giving them an incentive to raid regularly (and to play GW2). And this could mean losing existing players. (Well ... technically it would be possible to still have most other PvE stuff playable without progressing through the gear treadmill ... and have this exclusively for raids. Fractals has an own way with it's agony resistance system where you need more for the higher tiers. Something like that might work for raids.)

I think for most casuals it is: Playing less, spending more time on other stuff - and buying game progress (or at least the gems for the skins you want from gem store) for real money.

Yes of course: People buying gems for gold will influence the exchange rates ... making it more likely that a casual that has a really small amount of time to spend for playing GW2 ... buys actually gems and trades them for gold - instead of farming gold.

(Personally I have lots of free time ... but also not that much money. Keeping gem story and gold seperated and making no exchanges gold<->gems - that goes for both directions. I buy gems with real money ... mainly using them for utility stuff - bank tab expansions and things like that.)

[kharmin.7683]

12 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

people who want to show of need people to show of to.

The more populated a game is the less dead a game feels, making it more likely people will keep playing.

Got it.  Not sure that's how it works, though.

[Hotride.2187]

If the pve in this game was only instanced content I wouldn't bother at all with it. Every instanced content that is somewhat challenging has LFG "exp only" "5k UFE" "1k LI" and bla bla. Not that this is the only game where this happens, or that I care that it happens in gw2, but pass on having mainly content like this for pve.

[Cuks.8241]

I think they should first invest more in pvp modes. Even if the player base is small (due to 0 investments in the modes) it's not a demanding crowd. Give us a new map and some improvements every 2 years, perhaps a new mode every 7 years and those players will come back for a decade or 2. I still play 20 years old competitive games. All you need is good game play and a little bi of love and pvpers will be happy. And gw2 has good gameplay.

On the other hand if you want to keep pve only crowd interested you need to crank up new large maps with new assets, story writing, voice overs, music... all the time. They do spend more most likely though. But pvpers are hoarders also, don't think otherwise, there are many f2p pvp games that bet on cosmetics.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

6 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I think they should first invest more in pvp modes. Even if the player base is small (due to 0 investments in the modes) it's not a demanding crowd. Give us a new map and some improvements every 2 years, perhaps a new mode every 7 years and those players will come back for a decade or 2. I still play 20 years old competitive games. All you need is good game play and a little bi of love and pvpers will be happy. And gw2 has good gameplay.

On the other hand if you want to keep pve only crowd interested you need to crank up new large maps with new assets, story writing, voice overs, music... all the time. They do spend more most likely though. But pvpers are hoarders also, don't think otherwise, there are many f2p pvp games that bet on cosmetics.

Eh, PvP still needs big balance changes with frequent balance tweaks to fix any over/under performing builds.

[Krzysztof.5973]

10 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

If the pve in this game was only instanced content I wouldn't bother at all with it. Every instanced content that is somewhat challenging has LFG "exp only" "5k UFE" "1k LI" and bla bla. Not that this is the only game where this happens, or that I care that it happens in gw2, but pass on having mainly content like this for pve.

I don't see how experienced players wanting to play with other experienced players would affect your enjoyment of the certain content. 

[Bakeneko.5826]

21 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

No, because you made a stronger statement then: "adding raids will not add enough players" (which is what the discontinuation shows).

You said that raids might reduce the playerbase.

 

And obviously the devs think adding difficult instanced content is worth it, because they plan to have raid difficulty strike cms.

 

The more gems are bought, the more gold you get for selling gems, iincreasing the total revenue.

 

As another example, free to play player (who never spend money on the game) will increase the revenue. As the more populated a game is, the more lickely people are to spend money on the game. 

 

I said nothing of that sort, i just provided logic behind "more raids wont game more successful", please don't put other people words into my mouth, esp. if noone said those words to begin with.

 

So.... there is no direct profit from gold to gems... Like I said.... It all rides on whales to spend money on gems with exclusive need for gems to gold.

 

And your example is erroneous, as correlation doesn't imply causation. B2P player - I could agree, F2P - not so much.

16 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Unless they get more of the "casuals" to also play raids

Raid community alienated "casuals" during golden age of raiding in GW2 (late HoT - pre PoF), effectively smothering their own community

[Cyninja.2954]

4 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

I said nothing of that sort, i just provided logic behind "more raids wont game more successful", please don't put other people words into my mouth, esp. if noone said those words to begin with.

 

So.... there is no direct profit from gold to gems... Like I said.... It all rides on whales to spend money on gems with exclusive need for gems to gold.

That's like saying interest rates has no effect on loans. In the end it always needs someone to take out that loan. Suffice to say, it's nonsense.

 

Gold -> Gems conversion increases the incentive to convert gems to gold because the return gets higher. There are players who constantly wait for favorable conversion and break points. Most gems are gained via purchases for real money.

4 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

 

And your example is erroneous, as correlation doesn't imply causation. B2P player - I could agree, F2P - not so much.

That is true.

4 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Raid community alienated "casuals" during golden age of raiding in GW2 (late HoT - pre PoF), effectively smothering their own community

 

During the "golden are" of raiding, raids where just as new to now veteran players as they are now to new players. There simply wasn't as many resources, nor was there a lot of demand for them. In fact: there was a strait up vilification of guides and builds by parts of the community because: "how dare someone tell you how to play your class" fueled by pure ignorance.

 

Now, with legendary armory and a far higher desire in the general community to actually go for legendary gear, and after years of work and community building, there are tons of guides and materials.

[Bakeneko.5826]

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Now, with legendary armory and a far higher desire in the general community to actually go for legendary gear, and after years of work and community building, there are tons of guides and materials.

Legendary armour is pre-PoF...

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Legendary armour is pre-PoF...

The armory is not...

[Bakeneko.5826]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

The armory is not...

yes and it is irrelevant to this discussion...

[Cyninja.2954]

2 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

yes and it is irrelevant to this discussion...

It isn't in regards to what you said earlier given it has a direct effect on motivation and desire to get the rewards from this content and thus community building around that content.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

12 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

I said nothing of that sort, i just provided logic behind "more raids wont game more successful", please don't put other people words into my mouth, esp. if noone said those words to begin with.

You said, and i quote "They actually might lose players from the main target audience - if they shift their focus too other stuff too much". Does this not mean that the game would potentially lose players if they added raids? Or how should i interprete this.

12 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

So.... there is no direct profit from gold to gems... Like I said.... It all rides on whales to spend money on gems with exclusive need for gems to gold.

 

And your example is erroneous, as correlation doesn't imply causation. B2P player - I could agree, F2P - not so much.

I'll just ask you then, where do you think the argument breaks down?

 

Person buys gems for gold -> more gold can be bougt for the same amount of gems -> more people are incentiviced to buy gems to convert to gold.

12 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Raid community alienated "casuals" during golden age of raiding in GW2 (late HoT - pre PoF), effectively smothering their own community

 

This is a to symplistic view on what happened to ever be of any use.

[Bakeneko.5826]

58 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

You said, and i quote "They actually might lose players from the main target audience - if they shift their focus too other stuff too much". Does this not mean that the game would potentially lose players if they added raids? Or how should i interprete this.

Yeah, I didn't. Don't put other people words into my mouth.

 

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

It isn't in regards to what you said earlier given it has a direct effect on motivation and desire to get the rewards from this content and thus community building around that content.

Armour didn't make legendaries more or less desirable, it gave them extra utility. It's QoL, before we would just transfer items via bank/inv slots.

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

This is a to symplistic view on what happened to ever be of any use.

Yes, it is tl;dr. Would you prefer 7 posts at max character limit that leads into same conclusion? It feels like you want to argue just to argue, not to make a point.

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Armour didn't make legendaries more or less desirable, it gave them extra utility. It's QoL, before we would just transfer items via bank/inv slots.

QoL is one of the MOST desirable quality in this game. Some QoL items literally go for thousands of gold or are recommended must buys from the gem store.

 

How is this in any shape or form an argument. Yes, legendary gear got a huge QoL upgrade, multiple in fact since HoT. Yes, this had the effect that the gear became more desirable. Yes, this also affects which players are aiming to acquire said gear and YES, this has an effect on how communities around content required for this gear develop.

 

I'm not even sure what you are arguing her atm any longer. You clearly aren't even making sense at this point in time. Your simplistic view on complex issues with a seeming lack to follow basic reasoning is exactly what many players faced in the past when they shared their guides and builds with this community: pure ignorance and broad hostility. It's amazing that any players are currently even taking the time to provide ANY guides and assistance faced with such odds.

Quote

 

Yes, it is tl;dr. Would you prefer 7 posts at max character limit that leads into same conclusion? It feels like you want to argue just to argue, not to make a point.

Pot meet kettle.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

38 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Yeah, I didn't. Don't put other people words into my mouth.

I stand corrected, Luthan was the person saying it. That still does not change that that was what i was responding to. 

38 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

 

Armour didn't make legendaries more or less desirable, it gave them extra utility. It's QoL, before we would just transfer items via bank/inv slots.

Seriously, how can anyone say that with a straigth face after all the posts talking about how people finally started on crafting legendaries after the armoury was revealed?

 

38 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Yes, it is tl;dr. Would you prefer 7 posts at max character limit that leads into same conclusion? It feels like you want to argue just to argue, not to make a point.

Theirs something between a doctoral thesis and one sentence. My point is that that is not a good summary about what happenend,

as such, more care should be taken when talking about the subject?

 

But If that is your conclusion, you're just looking at it onesidely. Its equivalent to a raider saying raids dont get made anymore just because the population sucks at the game. 

 

 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Raid community alienated "casuals" during golden age of raiding in GW2 (late HoT - pre PoF), effectively smothering their own community

Fun fact; the raid community as a whole did nothing of the sort.  People just like drama so the only posts that ever got traction were the ones showing the raid community in a negative light.

[Bakeneko.5826]

16 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Fun fact; the raid community as a whole did nothing of the sort.  People just like drama so the only posts that ever got traction were the ones showing the raid community in a negative light.

And I guess it was just conspiracy theory by non raiders to stick it to raiders? Or maybe it had some truth to it? How come fractal CMs do not get so much negativity as raids do, even though in fractal CM one person contribution is way more important than in raid?