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Anet needs to move away from Open World design and make new dungeons.


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36 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I like that solution.  As someone who prefers open world content, I wouldn't mind having the option for solo exploration of dungeons.

Same! I would love that. I think there have been several discussions about revamping the dungeons to make them playable in single-player, but it can't hurt to repeat that desire ūüôā

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I recently came back to the game because I'm heavily invested in it and wanted to experience Cantha when EoD hits...   However upon doing HoT, Pof and LS the maps are just as painful as I re

No thanks. If your focus is instanced group content, there are plenty of other games out there that focus on that kind of content.   The strength of GW2 is its focus on open world content. M

I love these threads, they make me feel like some sort of MMO God, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth. I have a dozen characters of assorted builds that have all successfully mapp

19 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

We see the "we need more people playing this content" thing all the time, the problem is that we also see the "you must be this tall to ride this ride" posts too.  Some of this doesn't have anything to do with a lack of desire to "Git Gud", but with constantly being  reminded of how inferior they are.

I experienced this myself recently.

Someone in guild chat asked if anyone wanted to join them for fractals. I said I wouldn't mind having a go, but that I wasn't experienced with them, and was told to at the very least go buy some expensive infusions before they would consider taking me along.

It wasn't said with malice, but it was enough to put me off of asking again, and made me aware that as a player relatively new to fractals, I'd be wasting the time of those more experienced who would have to spend time teaching me.

Edit: And this ties in to my desire for a drop-in playlist of instanced content balanced for random, anonymous play, so that you don't have to put up with barriers to entry put down by other players.

If I can try something anonymously without fear of annoying other players, it means I can learn, which will make me more likely to try other instanced content.

Edited by Mungrul.9358
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OP's premise is pretty flawed.  Anet had already said that they had stopped development on dungeons and that fractals were to be the focus of that style of content.  Then, they moved to incorporate raids and strikes, the latter which seems to be filling the niche that fractals was supposed to have.

OP might have better luck making suggestions for the current content styles (raids/strikes) as that appears to be the direction that Anet is trending.  I highly doubt that Anet will look backwards toward dungeons.

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I love the open world. I'd hate to see it "moved away from" in preference for instanced content.

I actually wish we had  to travel to each of the dragon response missions where they were supposed to be taking place during IBS. Doing everything through a gate from a hub felt like the world had disappeared.

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28 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

The better question is "Why is that content failing".  Is it because of players not having any interest in it, or is it because other players want to be able to view your gear, to determine if you're good enough to be in the content?  You see, I have played a lot of MMOs, and I have played in the grind that is progression raiding for a good part of that, and the biggest obstacle to this content isn't the content itself, it's other players.

We see the "we need more people playing this content" thing all the time, the problem is that we also see the "you must be this tall to ride this ride" posts too.  Some of this doesn't have anything to do with a lack of desire to "Git Gud", but with constantly being  reminded of how inferior they are.

From what I've noticed there are far more people who simply don't want to bother with raids because they have to put effort into them.

After all, contrary to some people's opinion, raids are hard.

All of these things certainly are reasons why instanced content, especially for high end people, is failing.

But, however many reasons there are, instanced content doesn't appeal to the majority of players in GW2, thus Arenanet focussing far more on open world is the right way to go for the game.

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5 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

From what I've noticed there are far more people who simply don't want to bother with raids because they have to put effort into them.

After all, contrary to some people's opinion, raids are hard.

All of these things certainly are reasons why instanced content, especially for high end people, is failing.

But, however many reasons there are, instanced content doesn't appeal to the majority of players in GW2, thus Arenanet focussing far more on open world is the right way to go for the game.

I don't disagree.  There are players that have no interest in it at all.  The problem is that they won't be clogging the system trying to play it, if they're not interested in it.  That post was aimed more at people that actually do want to try it, and then hit a wall created by players, instead of by the devs.

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4 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

The gemstore may help to support the financials, but the game play is what brings in the players.  If Anet radically changed their direction away from the years of OW content in favor of more instanced content, I believe that their revenue would dramatically suffer.  Raids were to be the thing, but even they had to admit that raiding wasn't as popular within GW2 as they had thought. 

Anet has the statistics and the metrics to know what content brings in the greatest revenue.  Again, I trust that over a random forums poster's desires.

Dident they also have the lowest revenue in years when releasing IBS aswell that was chock full of easy open world content?

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1 hour ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

 

Someone in guild chat asked if anyone wanted to join them for fractals. I said I wouldn't mind having a go, but that I wasn't experienced with them, and was told to at the very least go buy some expensive infusions before they would consider taking me along.

 

If you don't have the AR infusions, your character will die from the unavoidable environmental effect (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony) in higher tier fractals regardless of how good a player you are. Your guild mates were most likely not trying to make you feel bad, they were just telling you what the game's mechanic requires. That is Arenanet's requirement, not one set by players.

Edited by Dovienya.6597
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1 hour ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

I don't disagree.  There are players that have no interest in it at all.  The problem is that they won't be clogging the system trying to play it, if they're not interested in it.  That post was aimed more at people that actually do want to try it, and then hit a wall created by players, instead of by the devs.

Even in that scenario, said wall is created by both developers and players.

The reason a lot of higher end players only want "effective" players (or at least players with optimized loadouts) in their groups is precisely because Arenanet set the bar for raids so high.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

From what I've noticed there are far more people who simply don't want to bother with raids because they have to put effort into them.

I see this stated all the time, but the implications of what you're saying really requires some evidence as to whether that's actually true.

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52 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Even in that scenario, said wall is created by both developers and players.

The reason a lot of higher end players only want "effective" players (or at least players with optimized loadouts) in their groups is precisely because Arenanet set the bar for raids so high.

How did the first players complete said content w/out the "bells and whistles"?  In progression raiding groups, we ran the content until we got completions on the hardest difficulty, whatever that may be.  We started w/out anything that comes from the content, because obviously we hadn't gotten it yet, and yet, we managed to complete it.  Yes, it gets easier as you "gear up" or "skill up" as the case may be, but it's far from required.  It is, however, desired.

Raids should be hard, otherwise they're just more plink around stuff.  Better gear/skills are a plus, but when the content provides the means to get the gear, as in some of my earlier examples, locking players out of the content isn't going to help them.  This wall is created by the players, that will insist that anyone new to the raid should have the gear that even they didn't have when they first went in.  Another swtor example, requiring the title from the raid in order to join the raid group, or requiring NiM rated gear for a Story mode raid.

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7 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I think I'd rather trust Anet to make the decision as to what content provides them with the highest opportunity for profit than some forum posters desires.  There is no need for Anet to move away game design that makes them the most money.  I prefer that they continue to spend a large majority of their resources on content that will keep the company viable rather than cater to a few who want to radically change the company's direction.

Money isn't the motivator, keeping players interested is the motivator. If they JUST churned out expensive, cutesy skins and nothing else, the player-base would be considerably smaller.

 

There's a need to create something players want to TRY. That's all. It doesn't have to be good, because Anet move on straight away and don't look back - so expect future content to be largely experimental. Strikes will probably get abandoned soon and another form of content will take their place in the workload. This is because of novelty.

 

It's all done to retain a vague interest - hardcore players aren't the target audience, it's those super-casuals with disposable income who pop back once a month or so to unlock a thing, try the new content and buy a gem store item.

 

I like those people, they pay so I don't have to.

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50 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

How did the first players complete said content w/out the "bells and whistles"?  In progression raiding groups, we ran the content until we got completions on the hardest difficulty, whatever that may be.  We started w/out anything that comes from the content, because obviously we hadn't gotten it yet, and yet, we managed to complete it.  Yes, it gets easier as you "gear up" or "skill up" as the case may be, but it's far from required.  It is, however, desired.

Raids should be hard, otherwise they're just more plink around stuff.  Better gear/skills are a plus, but when the content provides the means to get the gear, as in some of my earlier examples, locking players out of the content isn't going to help them.  This wall is created by the players, that will insist that anyone new to the raid should have the gear that even they didn't have when they first went in.  Another swtor example, requiring the title from the raid in order to join the raid group, or requiring NiM rated gear for a Story mode raid.

The first to complete them obviously were effective and coordinated groups, even if their gear wasn't optimized.

But it's likely that many not so effective and coordinated players also tried raiding at the same time - and gave up.

I agree that raids should have be hard and that hard mode should be the primary version when designing raids. But given that it's content, it should also available for a wider audience, that cannot deal with the hard mode. That's why I also am in favour of Arenanet giving us slimmed down version.

Other games have multiple difficulties as well and it works wonderfully. In the case of WoW raid participation on lower difficulties (including the frowned upon LFR) saved raid creation from being stopped.

Not having an easier option is the part of the wall created by Arenanet, not by other players.

Arenanet is effectively gating raid content by enforcing a specific skill requirement, while other players gate their groups behind a gear wall.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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7 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Yeah, this does seem to be more an expectation of a section of the community rather than how the games themselves should be.

As both Guild Wars games were originally built to be something different to the usual, it's a shame to see ANet feel they have to pander to the crowd that lack the imagination to play a game that differs from their personal norm.

The crowd. brings in the money. Gw2 has great mindless casual content but is severely lacking in group content or content where your contribution matters. the last open world event which required some community interaction was triple trouble. every open world event after that never required to group up properly. a press 1 zerg doesnt count.

Only pleasing one crowd, the casuals, is just not really working. this is one reason why the game isnt as successful as other mmos. gw2 is an mmo that feels like a single player game most of the time. player interaction not required. there should be more pvp or instanced pve content

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9 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

Many of us came here because we don't enjoy being a one-trick pony in a theoretically optimized build that relies on other players filling different "roles" to succeed.

Except there is theory crafting in GW2 and optimized builds for different content. Go to gw2 meta and you can find the optimal build and rotation for whatever class and content you're looking for.

 

Nice try bud.

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12 hours ago, Dromar.1027 said:

I recently came back to the game because I'm heavily invested in it and wanted to experience Cantha when EoD hits...

 

However upon doing HoT, Pof and LS the maps are just as painful as I remember. Your marred with cliffs and barriers constantly that it makes a person want to scream. Not to mention the mobs and environmental effects that boot you off your mount and kill you in two or three hits. I really had hoped Anet learned a lesson and went back to rework the dungeons so GW2 had a more well-rounded MMO formula of Open World>Dungeons>Raids but I can see they are still hellbent on making the open world as painful as possible. How about instead of making open world so torturous you go back and put that energy into dungeon design outside of Fractals. This game needs more and better dungeons; not open world maps that with mindless gathering and content that foster thoughts of keyboard smashing.

 

At the very least make past map metas easier to complete with a smaller group please. Also for the record I love Fractals and before GW2 was released I was anticipating the original concept of dungeons being a very in depth, 5 man exploratory map where you kill bosses. What ever happened to that concept?

 

I know this seems like a kick in the groin but the abandonment of dungeons doesn't mean the idea within GW2 is bad it just means a lack of talent is present with dungeons.

If open world is "painful" for you, then it's a rather clear sign you have some catching up to do with the game's mechanics. Stop trying to dumb down the game instead of letting it move forward like it should, thanks.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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I am against more dungeons. GW2 is not known for hardcore content. This game is about casual content you can play while half asleep … 

 

on the open world design, I think some improvements can be made for sure. HoT is notorious for having bad map design, but PoF is a lot less frustrating 

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17 hours ago, Dromar.1027 said:

At the very least make past map metas easier to complete with a smaller group please. Also for the record I love Fractals and before GW2 was released I was anticipating the original concept of dungeons being a very in depth, 5 man exploratory map where you kill bosses. What ever happened to that concept?

Most single enemies in open world scale down to 5 man or even lower to defeat. Also larger meta that require splitting into multiple groups usually need at least 5 people per group. Post HoT a lot of bosses got tuned up, because Anet seems to have decided that optimized builds would be the baseline for their balance everywhere (which I think was a mistake because there is a fairly large power gap created from optimizing gear and builds) so 5 man may feel a bit tougher in later maps. Powercreep has softened that balance lately though.

I am not sure how low some of the set piece, difficult world bosses (like Tequatl) scale down, but you don't really have a problem finding players to do those since they are on a schedule and people have LFG taxis for them. I am fairly confident that Dragonfall can be done with 15 pple. Dragon stand, I am not so sure because the blighting pods take quite a bit of coordination. Dragonstrom probably is fine with 10 pple (wait does that make Dragonstorm a strike mission?).

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19 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I'd prefer it if they added instanced content that was designed for and balanced towards drop-in play, so you didn't have to be too concerned about build or profession.

 

One of my favourite things about Destiny 2 when I played it was the Strike playlist, where you could drop in with randoms at any time, even midway through a mission, and just play together, without it being too difficult and not requiring voice comms.

 

That you could continue playing strikes as long as you liked, and completing one would just advance the playlist to the next one was the icing on the cake.

I was hoping GW2 strikes would be similar to that, but they really aren't.

 

This may come across as too casual for some people, but I genuinely believe there's a proportion of players who would enjoy playing instanced content like this; interesting mechanics, but not so complicated that they can't be picked up with minimal to no communication; a requirement for more than one player, but maybe topping out at three; and automatic replacement of players should they drop mid-mission.

Public instances of DRMs is what you're looking for. Unfortunately, unlike Destiny 2, it is VERY easy to build your character incorrectly/inefficiently in guild wars 2. Drop in play has to account for people who play a condition damage weapon with full healing power and 0 condition damage because the game does not give you any feedback on how to improve when combat gets rough for you. For content to not be concerned with build you'd need to make the bar so low that they might as well make an open world instance where people are spamming 1 and hit the majority audience. 

 

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22 hours ago, Dromar.1027 said:

The gemstore fills that need... not open world maps.

Without content that the vast majority of players enjoy people won't spend money in the gem store.

 

I've only been playing GW2 for a few months but, I'm loving the open world content and storyline quest. 

 

I played WoW from Vanilla through till MoP and since have dipped my toes into a lot of MMO's looking for one that gave good storytelling and open world PVE content but, none really scratched that itch.

 

Sadly I had avoided Guildwars and GW2 because the name made me believe it was all about PVP (I like PVP but as a fun option not the mainstay of a game) then I saw an article about the open world content of the game and thought I'd give it try and I have to say that IMO GW2 does this type of content better than any other MMO I've tried

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Seriously? 

GW2 EXCELS in Open World Content. Literally no other game is as good in Open World PVE stuff as GW2. Some are "similar" (FATEs in FFXIV, World quests in WoW, etc.), but they are really just far cries from what we have. The event system should be the benchmark of Open World PVE content. 

 

On the other hand, you have instanced content. This might be unpopular, but GW2 has some really good instanced content as well. Fractals are great, both the idea and the execution. I do believe that GW2 Raids are also exceptionally good (I am not saying that a lot of people play it or there is enough of them, I'm only saying the ones we have are done really well). The Strike Missions are a good idea, but poor execution in IBS, and dungeons are... we know what's up with them. 

 

But with having great Open World content, GW2 escapes what all other MMO-s tend to become: it will not become a game where people just stand in the lobby, waiting for the dungeon to pop, do an instanced content, and repeat. 

 

And it makes the game unlike others in my opinion. 

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I love the original dungeons. Maybe it’s nostalgia, maybe it’s whatever, but I do. And I wouldn’t mind a few updated tweaks for them (looking at you, bomb portion of Caudecus’ Manor P2…) 

 

But the strength of this game is definitely open world. While I didn’t care much for the aesthetics of the strike missions introduced in IBS, I liked the concept. And I think that’s a good balance to work with going forward, a nice scale down from raids. But none of that should come at the cost of less focus on open world. 

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