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Anet needs to move away from Open World design and make new dungeons.


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16 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Only pleasing one crowd, the casuals, is just not really working. this is one reason why the game isnt as successful as other mmos. gw2 is an mmo that feels like a single player game most of the time. player interaction not required. there should be more pvp or instanced pve content

Pleasing the casual crowd isn't working?  Where is your evidence of that?  How do you support that statement?  If anything, you're completely wrong.  Why else would Anet continue to develop casual content?  They know best from where their profits come.

As for more PvP and/or instanced PvE content, I'm sure that Anet knows how many players actually engage in those formats already.  Based on a very small sampling of posts in the PvP forum which complain about that mode being filled with bots and not players, I would think it safe to say that Anet doesn't find PvP to generate enough revenue when compared to OWPvE.  The same might also be said about instanced content (raids, strikes, fractals).

Edited by kharmin.7683
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I recently came back to the game because I'm heavily invested in it and wanted to experience Cantha when EoD hits...   However upon doing HoT, Pof and LS the maps are just as painful as I re

No thanks. If your focus is instanced group content, there are plenty of other games out there that focus on that kind of content.   The strength of GW2 is its focus on open world content. M

I love these threads, they make me feel like some sort of MMO God, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth. I have a dozen characters of assorted builds that have all successfully mapp

20 hours ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

The better question is "Why is that content failing".  Is it because of players not having any interest in it, or is it because other players want to be able to view your gear, to determine if you're good enough to be in the content?  You see, I have played a lot of MMOs, and I have played in the grind that is progression raiding for a good part of that, and the biggest obstacle to this content isn't the content itself, it's other players.

We see the "we need more people playing this content" thing all the time, the problem is that we also see the "you must be this tall to ride this ride" posts too.  Some of this doesn't have anything to do with a lack of desire to "Git Gud", but with constantly being  reminded of how inferior they are.

Some examples: 

In swtor, a DPS sage was complaining about the gear on one of the healers in an endgame raid.  Checking their gear score, you can tell they have "all the right stuff", but you can also tell they were carried to it, because during this raid, there is a one shot kill mechanic from the boss that is telegraphed to the nth degree, so that you know to get out of the way, and it's a directional laser attack, with only one path, and they were still crying about the healer's gear when they stood right in it and couldn't figure out why they died, or;

Expecting a player to have a title in order to run content, that only comes from running the content.

Here, these players expect certain gear, and a certain build, or you're not qualified to be in their party.  They will then complain about the lack of population in that content, despite creating the situation themselves.

Then there's the actual runs, even in the early dungeons, where the lead will know all the shortcuts, and all the proper paths, and will just expect everyone to zerg it like they are.  If they're not, they're going to get an earful in game, and a lot of times, they'll get another earful that they may not even be aware of, right here on the forums, discussing how "bad" they were, because they didn't know x or y.

This isn't coming from someone that doesn't, or hasn't, run endgame content.  This is merely an observation of a little over a decade's worth of experience, watching this happen over and over again.  I was fully capable of running endgame content in DDO, for example, in the "elite corps" of raiders.  I had the builds, and the skill to do it.  I chose, however, to run with my guild, regardless of how skilled, or unskilled they were.  There are definitely players that have no interest in the "git gud" philosophy, but some just need a chance to play, and learn the content, and they don't get it when they're expected to be a pro on their first run.

I suspect dungeons aren't ran so much is because the loot isn't super interesting and the lore in the content is SO dated. Fractals to me were the new dungeons so I have no idea why they wouldn't keep making them...maybe up to number 25?

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22 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

 

Does SP mean single-player?

I tried googling 'SP mode dungeons' and came up with a surprising range of answers, including 'single player', 'story path' (which seems similar in that it's an easier mode) 'skills & powers' which seems to be specific to JRPGs and means you're locked into specific skills and lots of articles about a WoW dungeon called Slave Pens which apparently offers multiple routes to complete it. Of those single-player seems to make the most sense in context, but I'm not sure.

Yes, SP = Single play in this discussion.

 

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21 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

OP's premise is pretty flawed.  Anet had already said that they had stopped development on dungeons and that fractals were to be the focus of that style of content.  Then, they moved to incorporate raids and strikes, the latter which seems to be filling the niche that fractals was supposed to have.

OP might have better luck making suggestions for the current content styles (raids/strikes) as that appears to be the direction that Anet is trending.  I highly doubt that Anet will look backwards toward dungeons.

But Anet must be aware that raids and strikes were a failure and not well received by many players. As you said a 'niche' and I would add a very small vocal niche. Anet shouldn't be so intent to continue in the same direction for modes that are not really warranted.

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22 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I experienced this myself recently.

Someone in guild chat asked if anyone wanted to join them for fractals. I said I wouldn't mind having a go, but that I wasn't experienced with them, and was told to at the very least go buy some expensive infusions before they would consider taking me along.

 

If your guild didn't or doesn't offer you training sessions, time to find a new guild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The Strength of GW2 is Open-World Design.

I would say: Stay with the Strength, there is already more Small Closed Group Content (From Dungeons and Fractals to Raids and Dragon Response and Strike Mission) than I like.

Edited by Dayra.7405
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22 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

From what I've noticed there are far more people who simply don't want to bother with raids because they have to put effort into them.

After all, contrary to some people's opinion, raids are hard.

All of these things certainly are reasons why instanced content, especially for high end people, is failing.

They aren't hard. I've run wings from 1-6, and so far the only bosses I'd call "hard" are twin largos and soulless horror. Q1 gets an honorable mention due to sheer mechanical bloat. Every other boss encounter demands you to memorize 2/3 mechanics/patterns at worst. T4 fractals are harder than most raid bosses.

The reason people don't bother with raids is because the whole LFG for them looks like one big "kitten off and don't come back" sign.

Edited by Wintermute.5408
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23 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I experienced this myself recently.

Someone in guild chat asked if anyone wanted to join them for fractals. I said I wouldn't mind having a go, but that I wasn't experienced with them, and was told to at the very least go buy some expensive infusions before they would consider taking me along.

It wasn't said with malice, but it was enough to put me off of asking again, and made me aware that as a player relatively new to fractals, I'd be wasting the time of those more experienced who would have to spend time teaching me.

Edit: And this ties in to my desire for a drop-in playlist of instanced content balanced for random, anonymous play, so that you don't have to put up with barriers to entry put down by other players.

If I can try something anonymously without fear of annoying other players, it means I can learn, which will make me more likely to try other instanced content.

If they wanted you to get infusions, they were probably going for t4 fractals -you wouldn't learn much if you spent your time on the ground. Seems you'll be better off just using lfg and learning from t1.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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On 12/17/2021 at 5:40 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

I think I'd rather trust Anet to make the decision as to what content provides them with the highest opportunity for profit than some forum posters desires.  There is no need for Anet to move away game design that makes them the most money.  I prefer that they continue to spend a large majority of their resources on content that will keep the company viable rather than cater to a few who want to radically change the company's direction.

This is the same company that got 3rd of its employees fired because of at least 2 failed projects, and made the ibs. Ibs was so bad that everyone that was on the ibs announcement stage no longer works for the company. Both mikes are gone, the narrative director is gone, and everyones favorite furry poncho marketing director is gone. 

I do not think it is a radical view to ask for the company to stop chnaging the system for instanced content over and over again. First we had dungeons, then fractals, then raids, then strikes, then drms, and now i guess strikes again.  And noticed there has always been instanced content the entire history of the game, but with the constantly changing system, riddled with parasitic design, the playerbase is confused.

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On 12/17/2021 at 12:45 PM, Mungrul.9358 said:

Not really at all.

Current strikes don't play in a playlist as far as I'm aware, don't support drop-in play, and require 10 people.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am.

Very wrong, same old playlist, what in it gets rotated to match current season. And never been 10 player content. strikes 3, dungeons 3, grandmaster nightfall 3. Raids are 6.

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23 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I experienced this myself recently.

Someone in guild chat asked if anyone wanted to join them for fractals. I said I wouldn't mind having a go, but that I wasn't experienced with them, and was told to at the very least go buy some expensive infusions before they would consider taking me along.

It wasn't said with malice, but it was enough to put me off of asking again, and made me aware that as a player relatively new to fractals, I'd be wasting the time of those more experienced who would have to spend time teaching me.

Edit: And this ties in to my desire for a drop-in playlist of instanced content balanced for random, anonymous play, so that you don't have to put up with barriers to entry put down by other players.

If I can try something anonymously without fear of annoying other players, it means I can learn, which will make me more likely to try other instanced content.

Said infusions are a core mechanic of how the tier system works, get 150 AR and you can do T4 fracts at will.

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On 12/17/2021 at 9:42 AM, Danikat.8537 said:

 

Does SP mean single-player?

I tried googling 'SP mode dungeons' and came up with a surprising range of answers, including 'single player', 'story path' (which seems similar in that it's an easier mode) 'skills & powers' which seems to be specific to JRPGs and means you're locked into specific skills and lots of articles about a WoW dungeon called Slave Pens which apparently offers multiple routes to complete it. Of those single-player seems to make the most sense in context, but I'm not sure.

Yep, single player, like in some games where you can enter and follow dungeon paths for solo play.  Having group option and solo option would be nice.  Not for fractals but for the old dungeons, since it's not as active of content.

 

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6 hours ago, Animallistic.6592 said:

Without content that the vast majority of players enjoy people won't spend money in the gem store.

That's what expansions are for. It doesn't matter what they offer between expansions, they won't be able to keep most players. What ArenaNet is doing (open/living world) is the most expensive type of content, whereas you'll notice most MMOs rely on cheap filler (dungeons, raids, dailies, grinding, etc) between expansions. This is because players tend to only play the expansion, generally treating it like a single player game, then what's left in-between is the vocal grinders that need to be kept placated.

Moving forward, I wouldn't be surprised if the living world is done and they switch to the filler model. The living world was MO's thing, whereas NCSoft wanted expansions the entire time.

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You want to get rid of the original selling point of the game and the thing the game is good at, while only few GW2 players care about dungeons, raids and similar. No open world = no GW2. It's what defines this game and a common reason why the people who play it picked it over other games.

Edited by deatine.2498
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37 minutes ago, deatine.2498 said:

You want to get rid of the original selling point of the game and the thing the game is good at, while only few GW2 players care about dungeons, raids and similar. No open world = no GW2. It's what defines this game and a common reason why the people who play it picked it over other games.

On the other hand, they could stand to do a little better than 1 fractal every year-and-a-half.  I love GW2 open world and story, but I would still enjoy more fractals and similar content.  I don't feel they focus enough on instanced PvE development.

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Someone once said the perfect game has yet to come along, but the day it does all other games will be obsolete. I like this game, and I like other games, but none of them are perfect and have everything in them. I love dungeon running in games its my jam, unfortunately in this game  players here dont like to do them so im SoL. I have seen one dungeon because no one does them except if they are a daily.

My perfect game would have astounding everything because im not a one trick pony, I like to do it all.  Quest and story lines,amazing open world, free flowing combat and movement, well designed zones, beautiful character creation ,fantastic group content like dungeons/raids/ battleground systems that you can choose to do with your guild or queue up for with others, and make it inclusive by allowing people to choose the difficulty beginner/intermediate/advanced. 

GW2 does a lot of those things but its not perfect, and some things could be done better. And giving people options to try something new by taking it step by step, instead of heres a raid thats full blown and people have to judge you in order for you to be invited, why not have a beginner raid section . Or heres dungeons but there is no reason to really do them, make dungeon crawl a thing , why not have titles and a mount skin from doing the achievements in dungeons. Or something that makes people want to do them.

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45 minutes ago, deatine.2498 said:

You want to get rid of the original selling point of the game and the thing the game is good at, while only few GW2 players care about dungeons, raids and similar. No open world = no GW2. It's what defines this game and a common reason why the people who play it picked it over other games.

They dont care about them because most players dont want to run the elitist gauntlet to learn the raids.Most people dont even get the chance, if you cant prove you killed x boss they dont take you. And if they do  take you and you mess up its a kick  and no one ever learns anything that way.  They dont run dungeons because most people who have done them years ago they dont bother with them or actual clearing they just run ahead and leave new players in the dust. Then they wipe and quit. I think anet could tone down the amount of trash in dungeons and that people could slow down a bit. Make achievements in dungeons worth something, like I said titles maybe a mount skin for completing all the dungeons and their respected achievements

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9 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Most people dont even get the chance, if you cant prove you killed x boss they dont take you. And if they do  take you and you mess up its a kick  and no one ever learns anything that way.

Just start joining training squads.

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On 12/17/2021 at 2:14 AM, Dromar.1027 said:

I recently came back to the game because I'm heavily invested in it and wanted to experience Cantha when EoD hits...

 

However upon doing HoT, Pof and LS the maps are just as painful as I remember. Your marred with cliffs and barriers constantly that it makes a person want to scream. Not to mention the mobs and environmental effects that boot you off your mount and kill you in two or three hits. I really had hoped Anet learned a lesson and went back to rework the dungeons so GW2 had a more well-rounded MMO formula of Open World>Dungeons>Raids but I can see they are still hellbent on making the open world as painful as possible. How about instead of making open world so torturous you go back and put that energy into dungeon design outside of Fractals. This game needs more and better dungeons; not open world maps that with mindless gathering and content that foster thoughts of keyboard smashing.

 

At the very least make past map metas easier to complete with a smaller group please. Also for the record I love Fractals and before GW2 was released I was anticipating the original concept of dungeons being a very in depth, 5 man exploratory map where you kill bosses. What ever happened to that concept?

 

I know this seems like a kick in the groin but the abandonment of dungeons doesn't mean the idea within GW2 is bad it just means a lack of talent is present with dungeons.


Their team is too undersized to develop and maintain all areas of the game as you would see in other MMOs. This is largely due to the game being buy to play for the base game and expansions. As expansions occur so infrequently, they need to rely more heavily on gem store sales. Living Story releases appeal to the most players so it’s the biggest bang for their buck to get the most players into the game for new gem store item releases. The primary target demographic for GW2 are the very casual players who likely wouldn’t touch the instanced content. 

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3 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:


Their team is too undersized to develop and maintain all areas of the game as you would see in other MMOs. This is largely due to the game being buy to play for the base game and expansions. As expansions occur so infrequently, they need to rely more heavily on gem store sales. Living Story releases appeal to the most players so it’s the biggest bang for their buck to get the most players into the game for new gem store item releases. The primary target demographic for GW2 are the very casual players who likely wouldn’t touch the instanced content. 

400 employees isn't enough?

Putting half on living world would still leave 200 employees for the following: WvW, Profession Balance, PvP, & Instanced Content. (Raids,  Strikes, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.)  Split that evenly, and that's 50 people.  Are you telling me that 50 people can't manage their time well enough to get out more than one content release per year?

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On 12/17/2021 at 6:25 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Dident they also have the lowest revenue in years when releasing IBS aswell that was chock full of easy open world content?

Correlation does not imply causation. There was a ton of other potential reasons for that revenue dip you silently ignore. The announcement of "no expansion for you people" being most probably at the very top of that list.

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46 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

400 employees isn't enough?

Putting half on living world would still leave 200 employees for the following: WvW, Profession Balance, PvP, & Instanced Content. (Raids,  Strikes, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.)  Split that evenly, and that's 50 people.  Are you telling me that 50 people can't manage their time well enough to get out more than one content release per year?

You sure want Steve from accounting, Bob from marketing, and that nice cleaning lady (all employees of Anet) working on instanced content?

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24 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You sure want Steve from accounting, Bob from marketing, and that nice cleaning lady (all employees of Anet) working on instanced content?

There are:

30 artists
24 programmers
12 QA teams
7 Writers
24 designers

According to the wiki, using number of pages.


Let's say living world & Gemstore take half combined, rounded up.

Well WvW and PvP don't need writers so that leaves 3 writers for instanced content (Raids, Fractals, dungeons, strikes).

Then they'll just have to split the following into the 3 groups (WvW, PvP, Instanced PvE); 15 artists to do the work with the new rewards, 12 programmers to make the code for the new mechanics, if any, 6 QA members, 12 designers.  Remember, one guy designed SAB.  that's a lot of talent just going to waste there for months on end.


But hey, maybe if ANet didn't waste their time and money on side projects that went nowhere and actually invested  that money and profit into making GW2 sustainable beyond just LW, we'd have an actually well-rounded game with content release cadences that don't have any section waiting literal years for another piece of content and said content wouldn't have to be rebranded every other living world release.

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