Buffing Scepter (Update 1)

[Swagg.9236]

Main goal:  Add some combat flexibility with additions of AoE options, increased range within fire attunement, and increased inherent attack pressure.

FIRE

Spoiler

[Flamestrike] (1)

• Each strike now hits up to 3 targets in a 120 radius.  Secondary strike damage modifier increased from (0.15) to (0.25).  Secondary strike burn duration increased from 1s to 1½s.

[Dragon’s Tooth] (2)

• Recharge reduced from 6s to 5s.  Activation reduced from ¾s to ½s.  Burning adjusted from 1 stack (10s) to 2 stacks (6s).

[Phoenix] (3)

• Projectile ("pass-through") strike now also inflicts burning (1 stack; 6s).
• This skill now applies a unique buff to the player after activation:  [Rebirth].
  • Rebirth (3s): When this effect ends, [Phoenix] recharges.  If attuned to a different element when this effect ends, Fire Attunement recharges.
  • Rebirth Recharge Reduction: 5s

WATER

Spoiler

[Ice Shards] (1)

• Now functions identically to Engineer [Grenade] (activation time set to ¾s—up from [Grenade]’s ½s).
  • Damage (3x):  [PvP/WvW] (0.495) | [PvE] (0.75) — (0.165) per shard in [PvP/WvW] and  (0.25) per shard in [PvE] respectively (3 shards per attack).

[Shatterstone] (2)

• Damage normalized across all modes; now inflicts a brief chill instead of vulnerability.  Now always critically hits.  Now deals increased damage vs foes activating skills/performing an action.
  • Damage: (1.2)
  • Chilled (2s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed
  • Increased Critical Hit Chance: 100%
  • Increased Damage vs Foes Activating Skills: 100%

EARTH

Spoiler

[Stone Shards] (1)

• Each attack now pierces and deals increased damage per bleed stack on struck foes; Bonus Damage per Bleed Stack: [PvP/WvW] 5% (Max 50%) | [PvE] 2.5% (Max 150%)

[Rock Barrier] (2a)

Activation: 1s / Recharge: 15s

Conjure stones which float around you and grant barrier at every interval.

• Rock Barrier|5| (30s): Each stack grants barrier at every interval.
• Interval: 3s
• Barrier: 125 (0.05)

[Rock Ward] (2b)

 

[Hurl] (2c)

• If the user has barrier when this skill is activated, the projectiles become unblockable.

[Dust Devil] (3)

• Recharge increased from 15s to 18s.
• Now functions like a re-scaled clone of Tempest [Lightning Orb] (retains the 1200 unit travel range).  Activation time increased to ½s.  Missile launch radius set to 240 (down from [Lighting Orb]’s 360); missiles deal damage with a power modifier of (0.25), inflict blind (1½s) and bleeding (4s); missile launch interval set to ½s (up from [Lightning Orb]’s ¼s interval; translates to half the projectiles).

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[Jski.6180]

They look good any though of maybe making stone shard into a pierc?

I would also love to see air 2 and air 3 get an 3 target hit on there effect and air 1 channle much faster maybe say the same speed as mez GS 1 (all getting your longer rnge.)

[Infusion.7149]

When you think of scepter+x as a weaponset it is almost always associated with fresh air spike damage builds as opposed to AoE.

Scepter getting increased in range to 1050 is such an odd suggestion. The same goes for adding AOE onto water when shatterstone is so low cooldown to begin with, I don't know the point of having it an ammo skill with nearly double the cooldown since if you add aftercast and water traitline there is more or less no difference.

Water trident doesn't need condition clear since there is condition clear on Phoenix. It's not meant for support , if you want clears you can use the offhand for that. Same goes for knockback.

Aegis for 30s is a huge duration and as such I don't believe this is an ideal change on Rock Barrier , especially on a damage focused weapon. Instead for general usage it could be a damage reduction so as not to mess with toughness tanking in PVE and also to increase its efficacy when affected by vulnerability.

The only thing tangible here is Dust Devil gaining damage and potentially being unusable due to projectiles, but it does beg the question: would it be too large a buff to tempest with scepter+warhorn? Blind is the condition equivalent to aegis (see Flashbang on engineer) so you need to keep in mind its defensive value.

[Exzen.2976]

As much as I would personally enjoy scepter buffs, are they actually needed?

 

I fully expect this would just get elementalist nerfed again in some other crazy way, perhaps removing more defense from ele. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Stallic.2397]

Personally I would add more survivability to this weapon rather than damage. Scepter weaver can already be traited for powerful burst. I don't see why any of that needs so change. 

 

My most preferred change would go to earth. Instead of a blind on 3, I would rather create a earth like block similar concept to Bandits defense on daredevil. 3 sec block that procs tectonic shift if successful. 

 

 

[Serephen.3420]

This doesn't look like it would buff scepter in my opinion, makes it sound rather clunky. 

[Jski.6180]

I find scepter dose not fit the other core ele weapons set. Scepter just dose one thing dmg its missing soft cc hard cc and even a aura/transmutation. Often it seems like its only made for FA so adding in added effect to the other atuments on scepter would be good for the wepon set over all. The more we can remove scepter from only FA builds the better.

[Swagg.9236]

9 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

As much as I would personally enjoy scepter buffs, are they actually needed?

 

I fully expect this would just get elementalist nerfed again in some other crazy way, perhaps removing more defense from ele. 

Honestly do it.  I've been running a core scepter/dagger build recently which has effectively ZERO of the standard defenses and I survive because of timing, positioning, and shrewd usage of lighting flash, blinds, and ride the lightning.  The kind of defenses that most eles use now are just the boring weaver evades and passive healing.  There's no dynamic aspect to weaver.  It's SUPER straightforward and shallow.

[Exzen.2976]

11 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Honestly do it.  I've been running a core scepter/dagger build recently which has effectively ZERO of the standard defenses and I survive because of timing, positioning, and shrewd usage of lighting flash, blinds, and ride the lightning.  The kind of defenses that most eles use now are just the boring weaver evades and passive healing.  There's no dynamic aspect to weaver.  It's SUPER straightforward and shallow.

Not all Weavers rely on passive evades and healing. I run fresh air and often run scepter dagger on that, which will have similar defensive utility to core, if not less. 

 

Doesn't mean that every other ele or Weaver should have their defensives cut just because you dont like Weaver and fancy a buff to a weapon that probably doesn't really need it. 

 

A significant buff to Scepter will make it OP. Earth 3 could use a buff and maybe water and earth autos could use a tweak on the damage numbers, but otherwise its really solid. 

[ClickToKill.8473]

Scepter is in a good place right now, and this is coming from someone who thought Scepter was trash when the game first released.  😆

It doesn't need skill reworks.

 

The only weapon, IMO, that could use a buff is staff, because staff did lose a lot of its power over the years of nerfs to itself and other areas of ele that affected it.  Staff could probably gain a little bit of its power back and not be totally OP. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

18 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Honestly do it.  I've been running a core scepter/dagger build recently which has effectively ZERO of the standard defenses and I survive because of timing, positioning, and shrewd usage of lighting flash, blinds, and ride the lightning.  The kind of defenses that most eles use now are just the boring weaver evades and passive healing.  There's no dynamic aspect to weaver.  It's SUPER straightforward and shallow.

I find runaway builds pretty braindead and boring.  To each their own. 

[Obliviscaris.6937]

On 12/23/2021 at 9:46 AM, Serephen.3420 said:

This doesn't look like it would buff scepter in my opinion, makes it sound rather clunky. 

 

Particularly the flamestrike suggestion to be ground targered. I'm not awfully sure what good a 120 radius ground targeted AoE would be in PvP (let alone PvE).

And the functionality of this suggestion would clash with the suggestion (actually really good suggestion) of ice shards functioning like engineer's grenade, I mean in terms of usability and ground targeting options.

Dragon's tooth still lingers in the air for too long. It has since launch and with the extensive amount of stun-breaks in a PvP setting, getting it to land on anything other than a downed player is a lost cause. Having it function like a meteor ala the Hydras in the Crystal Desert would make it enjoyable to use and make the blast finisher on it more accessible.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Swagg.9236]

47 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

 

Particularly the flamestrike suggestion to be ground targered. I'm not awfully sure what good a 120 radius ground targeted AoE would be in PvP (let alone PvE).

And the functionality of this suggestion would clash with the suggestion (actually really good suggestion) of ice shards functioning like engineer's grenade, I mean in terms of usability and ground targeting options.

Dragon's tooth still lingers in the air for too long. It has since launch and with the extensive amount of stun-breaks in a PvP setting, getting it to land on anything other than a downed player is a lost cause. Having it function like a meteor ala the Hydras in the Crystal Desert would make it enjoyable to use and make the blast finisher on it more accessible.

A 120 radius 3-target cleave could completely melt revive attempts in PvP.  The suggestion, however, was to have the skill ONLY function as a ground-targeted attack if the user has no target selected (i.e. vs a stealth target.  Meanwhile, if the user had a selected target, then the attack would simply go off normally and automatically while within range.  That said, I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of flexibility were beyond anet's capacity (it's mostly fine as it is now; I'd still prefer it hit 3 targets in a 120 radius, though).

Dragon's Tooth is actually really good for forcing dodges and getting opening hits in with Phoenix.  You just have to layer the attacks linearly (ideally from around a blind corner), and time your opponent's movement to force them to dodge the tooth only to either double dodge or eat the unlockable Phoenix right in front of it.  It also rips apart rez attempts as part of a burst.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Swagg.9236]

11 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Not all Weavers rely on passive evades and healing. I run fresh air and often run scepter dagger on that, which will have similar defensive utility to core, if not less. 

 

Doesn't mean that every other ele or Weaver should have their defensives cut just because you dont like Weaver and fancy a buff to a weapon that probably doesn't really need it. 

 

A significant buff to Scepter will make it OP. Earth 3 could use a buff and maybe water and earth autos could use a tweak on the damage numbers, but otherwise its really solid. 

This isn't even really a massive buff.  The range increases in fire wouldn't affect plasma beam.  There are no air buffs.  Shatterstone can miss or get dodged.  The Ice Spikes rework deals equivalent damage to its current form.  Trident can CC now, but you'd need to be precise about it if you're trying to plasma burst anybody.  The only real buffs come in the earth line.

Edit:  I'll actually admit that the ice spikes into grenade change is a significant buff, but I mainly did that just as a tool against heavy blind spam.  The damage could be lowered even further (a 0.14 power modifier in PvP would probably be alright).

Edited December 24, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Obliviscaris.6937]

7 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

A 120 radius 3-target cleave could completely melt revive attempts in PvP.  The suggestion, however, was to have the skill ONLY function as a ground-targeted attack if the user has no target selected (i.e. vs a stealth target.  Meanwhile, if the user had a selected target, then the attack would simply go off normally and automatically while within range.  That said, I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of flexibility were beyond anet's capacity (it's mostly fine as it is now; I'd still prefer it hit 3 targets in a 120 radius, though).

Dragon's Tooth is actually really good for forcing dodges and getting opening hits in with Phoenix.  You just have to layer the attacks linearly (ideally from around a blind corner), and time your opponent's movement to force them to dodge the tooth only to either double dodge or eat the unlockable Phoenix right in front of it.  It also rips apart rez attempts as part of a burst.

 

I understand now more, and I absolutely realize that more technically skilled players will get a ton out of the proposed change, however, only the most skilled players will get anything out of it. The idea is to gravitate more players towards scepter, this may not be the most ideal way to do it, and that's putting it lightly. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Junkpile.7439]

It's kind of sad how for example core necro single lifeblast to about same damage than phoenix lighning flash combo. Damage is just trash and water skills doesn't really heal at all without huge amount healing power.

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

It's kind of sad how for example core necro single lifeblast to about same damage than phoenix lighning flash combo. Damage is just trash and water skills doesn't really heal at all without huge amount healing power.

The water 1 still feels like a place holder skill. I still dont get why it was never reworked for the entire life of gw2 now.

[Sena.2761]

I've always wondered why Phoenix grants vigor and cleanses a condition. Not a very fire thing to do and always seemed kind of random or just as a reference to the namesake, since it's sure as hell not a reference to the original GW1 Skill. I assume it's a holdover from when skills were designed with PvP in mind.

Scepter is my fav Ele weapon, I love all the blast finishers and it's the most "Mage" like weapon we have outside of poor Staff. I don't feel it needs much of a handling type buff-imo, it's among the most comfortable playstyle Ele has. If anything, just minor tweaks would be nice. DT maybe giving multiple stacks of burning instead of one stack of burning that lasts for an eternity would be nice. A speed up on the animation from Rock Barrier --> Hurl. Maybe a blast finisher on Shatterstone or Water Trident.

[Swagg.9236]

Update 1 (after all this feedback):  People are worried about e-specs receiving passive powercreep as core options receive buffs (which, if you ask me, is just more proof of how dire the state of GW2's design philosophy is).  [Water Trident] ABSOLUTELY needs more dimension to it (throwing regen on it in ANNO DOMINI 2014 and telling people to "just take [Cleansing Water] lololol" before then never touching it again is not proper game design).  [Phoenix], frankly, feels like half of a complete skill (despite its significant burst potential).  [Rock Barrier] is yet another one of those quintessential "filler skills," that really ought to bring more disruption and opportunity rather than being so fire-and-forget..  That said, it could be possible to make up for scepter's shallow kit via trait and utility options without necessarily increasing its raw output too much.

Speeding up anything, slapping in some boons, or adding combo finishers won't really change anything.  I have plenty of ideas, but if the counter-argument is consistently going to be "That's just going to make Weaver stronger," then the discussion really should be more about nerfing Weaver (it already just does so much with so little effort anyway) if you want to consistently see builds that aren't just sword/focus with earth shield or tempest support.

[Vaeo.4097]

My main complaint for scepter was always Dragon's tooth and too slow fire auto attack. Fire auto attack was improved by reducing cast time. So more or less ok now.

 

But Dragon's Tooth is so clunky. Scepter overall is rather fast paced weapon. But Dragon's Tooth breaks pacing. I suggest to replace it totally. For instance, swap scepter fire 2 and staff fire 3 skills (Flame Burst). Or create new skill without attack delay.

 

Phoenix is ok. Yes, a bit clunky, but overall fun and unique skill. Same for Rock Barrier -- a bit clunky, but overall ok.

 

Water Trident and Cleansing Water is a more complicated thing. Water Trident is ok as pure healing skill. And if you want to add condi cleansing to scepter I disagree.

Elementalist has very limited options for condi cleansing. Essentially only 2 reliable ways: Cleansing Water and Auras with Smothering Auras trait. Both ways require taking specific trait lines greatly limiting build variety. That's the real problem. So instead of adding condi cleansing to Water Trident I'd suggest to rework/replace some utility skills to provide reasonable condi cleansing without this two traits.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Vaeo.4097

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Too many target grounded skills with cast-time/delay and with short radius.
It means actually scepter isn't a mid-range weapon, but a melee weapon, as you need to body block mobs into your aoe. It's just too hard to hit anybody with skills in pvp modes but to cc chain people with focus, utility skills... or allies.

Or you play fresh-air Hit&Run weaver and learn rotation by heart, for average result. Even if one of the dual attacks is still bugged after 4 years (as weaver in general when you dismount etc)

 

I don't think more range on Fire skills would actually change anything. (why 1050 range ? )
IMO Dragon’s Tooth should have larger radius or a bit shorter delay to hit people sometimes.  Dragon’s Tooth + phoenix apply more burning.Shatterstone, fix the damage before vulnerability : applies vulnerability and chill at cast then exploses to do damage.
Otherwise yes, all ideas are good to improve elements.

 

[Swagg.9236]

13 hours ago, Vaeo.4097 said:

My main complaint for scepter was always Dragon's tooth and too slow fire auto attack. Fire auto attack was improved by reducing cast time. So more or less ok now.

 

But Dragon's Tooth is so clunky. Scepter overall is rather fast paced weapon. But Dragon's Tooth breaks pacing. I suggest to replace it totally. For instance, swap scepter fire 2 and staff fire 3 skills (Flame Burst). Or create new skill without attack delay.

 

Phoenix is ok. Yes, a bit clunky, but overall fun and unique skill. Same for Rock Barrier -- a bit clunky, but overall ok.

 

Water Trident and Cleansing Water is a more complicated thing. Water Trident is ok as pure healing skill. And if you want to add condi cleansing to scepter I disagree.

Elementalist has very limited options for condi cleansing. Essentially only 2 reliable ways: Cleansing Water and Auras with Smothering Auras trait. Both ways require taking specific trait lines greatly limiting build variety. That's the real problem. So instead of adding condi cleansing to Water Trident I'd suggest to rework/replace some utility skills to provide reasonable condi cleansing without this two traits.

 

 

 

"Clunky but OK" is only remotely tolerable because ele gets so many buttons to press.  You compare individual elements like this to any other kit and you're probably only going to find it in the tier where they keep Warrior offhand mace.  

Trident is ABSOLUTELY NOT good for healing.  It's a base 1k on a 20s cooldown with some baby regen thrown on top.  Moreover, trying to make that "good" with Healing Power pumping is like putting formula 1 race wheels on an Amish buggy.   The only skills that are "good for healing" in this game generally aren't even skills, and the ones that actually are mostly just vomit out barrier over time.  The problem (and reason) regarding why nobody wants more condition removal on ele weapons is because ele passively cleanses everything while rotating through whatever skills they have due to traits most days.  It's honestly pretty garbage that the automatic aspect of the game is governing what people think regarding active skill abilities--or it's worse that people just defend it.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Swagg.9236]

8 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Too many target grounded skills with cast-time/delay and with short radius.
It means actually scepter isn't a mid-range weapon, but a melee weapon, as you need to body block mobs into your aoe. It's just too hard to hit anybody with skills in pvp modes but to cc chain people with focus, utility skills... or allies.

Or you play fresh-air Hit&Run weaver and learn rotation by heart, for average result. Even if one of the dual attacks is still bugged after 4 years (as weaver in general when you dismount etc)

 

I don't think more range on Fire skills would actually change anything. (why 1050 range ? )
IMO Dragon’s Tooth should have larger radius or a bit shorter delay to hit people sometimes.  Dragon’s Tooth + phoenix apply more burning.Shatterstone, fix the damage before vulnerability : applies vulnerability and chill at cast then exploses to do damage.
Otherwise yes, all ideas are good to improve elements.

 

You'd probably be shocked by how much an extra 150 range can allow somebody to squeeze out against someone locked at 900.  However, it doesn't need to be 1200 because spamming burn on some dude with zero projectiles from offscreen would be even more kittenous than the skill is now.

I'll agree that scepter becomes a melee weapon when it needs to burst, but the problem is that, since the metagame has been groomed by people obsessed with extremely passive and reactive gameplay, engaging in melee basically means that you're only going to have 1 shot due to the innate shallow rotation of scepter.  Moreover, when engaging in melee, since that's exactly where anybody else wants you, your opponent is going to instantly start dancing through rotation buttons and panic buttons to evade and block while simultaneously attacking.  It's entirely one-sided.  Therefore, scepter needs some kind of mix-up ability between ranged threats and melee pressure.  I had originally put in some stuff for that, but people felt that I was "overbuffing" scepter.