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Nerf Mortar and Grenade Kit.


Skoll.8650

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20 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

Currently both need to be evaluated and changed regardless If I git gud or not, sorry to break it to you but it's for healthier gameplay, and just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not correct. 

Nah they don't, it's just your opinion.

Next we should remove skills that track, skills that channel and continue to hit out of range and when the target goes into stealth, lower the range on the pet limit, remove the ability for barrage to go through overhead cover, skills that will change direction after being started like bulls charge and rush.

All skills must be activated while facing your target and they will cancel if not square and targeted.

 

See how ridiculous this sounds?

Yours is a part of that list.

The only healthy game play is that players get healthy and stop playing drunk and blaming lack of skill on "unhealthy mechanics".

 

They literally aim at you while running away, why you chasing, why you mad?

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Explosive entrance need nerf though, ICD of 10s minimum is a must for that trait, it's free candy at this point.
I still don't get why you keep defending Grenade and Mortar kits though, if it's "not the root of the problem" then bug fixing should be fine to you, yet here you are bringing Holosmith into the discussion for some reason, like to justify it being broken while pointing your fingers at other more broken stuff on purpose.
I'm fully aware how busted Holosmith(and all other e-speces) overall is with it's kit and 99% of it could be fixed by slapping ICD on few traits and it would make it more bearable to play against. Then again, Grenade and Mortar kit would still be a problem here, because of how it can generate pressure while you're on defense, which shouldn't really be a thing if you want healthy gameplay in long run.
Scrapper is only "not busted" because PvP doesn't have good amulet to let them run free, beside that, it's also broken spec in long run.

I don't like the design of Explosive Entrance myself. I'd really rather the power of the trait not be tied to dodges, but I wouldn't say it's overpowered when you take it in the context of Engineer's kit. 

 Is it stronger than other similar traits on other classes, sure, but Engi also has some pretty bad power damage traitlines compared to other classes outside of explosives. Firearms is  a meme, and tools has been nerfed into the ground, so if it does get hit, I'd like to see some of that power distributed elsewhere. 

As for why I bring Holo into the equation, I explain that above. Nades and Mortar kit are balanced. They have upsides and some pretty noteworthy weaknesses. The problem is that Holo completely negates their  weaknesses, as well as the rest of core engi's weaknesses in general. That's why it'll keep overperforming even if you nerf all of the above, EE, nades, and mortar. 

I don't think it's worth the hit core/scrapper would have to take to nerf these if it doesn't even bring down the actual culprit in the meta at the moment. I can understand why others who don't play engi or care much about the core spec are willing to make that trade and just nerf again if and when it doesn't work. 

However, as an engi main, and as someone who would like core engi to remain at the very least PLAYABLE in PvP. I'd like this next round of nerfs to be done right. 

Making balanced proffesions underpowered is objectively bad balance. Making one of the weakest core classes (arguably the weakest core class when using the very skills that people in this thread want to nerf) weaker is also objectively bad balance. 

Toning down an overpowered elite spec on the other hand, is a justifiable change. 

 If holo had less mobility, less built in sustain, and less cleanse for example, they'd be much harder pressed to slot in a pure dps utility like Grenade kit. Otherwise they'd fall short in 1v1's and/or roaming for the same reasons core engi does. The actual weaknesses of the class, and Grenades/mortar would start to show. 

Edited by Kuma.1503
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Since I brought it up. After experimenting with different builds, this is the best power core engi build I've been able to create http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PeQAQlJwGZfsQWJO8K/rbA-zZILjGTgMLANGA

Tool kit is important because it gives you a low cooldown block and it gives you something to do when a tempest puts up swirling winds. Magnet and Crowbar are also just... mwah *chefs kiss*.

You take supply crate over mortar because the toolbelt skill gives you some actual cleanse and the CC from crates helps you set up kills. 

Rocket boots gives you the mobility you need to play as a roamer. 

You don't run grenades despite it being a dps based build because you cant really afford the downsides of running them. Replacing toolkit means you lose your block and get shut down by projectile hate. Replacing rocket boots gives up mobility. Replacing slick shoes leaves you with zero stunbreaks. 

This is why i say Holo is the problem. Nades and Mortar actually come with some big trade-offs for running them. The problem is simply that Holo doesn't care. 

Edited by Kuma.1503
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23 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Okay we're getting down to the meat of this. 

So your point, as far as I understand is that Nades, specifically the ability to fire behind you is unhealthy. It's too strong, and allows engi to do too much with little downside. They can kite you while still dishing out pressure, and they can be cast up close for melee pressure, so even when the engi is forced to retreat, they don't have to stop pressuring you. 

I'm not going to deny that there is an element of truth to this. A 900 range projectile that does good damage and fires behind you is a powerful mechanic. 

Even if nades don't overperform on their own. Nades + Holo overperforms. Since nades is part of the equation here, and since tossing projectiles behind you is unhealthy, it's worth nerfing despite the core build being objectively weak. 

That was my genuine attempt to steelman your argument. You can let me know how I did.

 

Here's why I think that logic is flawed. 

First, there's the major downsides of Grenades that's being overlooked. 

 

1. It's a pure dps kit with no built in defense, sustain, or cleanse. (besides a weak blind)

2. It takes up a utility slot

 

Next, there's core engi's trade-off. They do not get a weapon swap. Which means that, yes, while gaining 5 more skills in exhange for a utility slot is powerful. All taking grenades does is give the Engi what other classes have baseline. 

Since you sacrifced one of your utility slots for pure offense, you only have two slots left to fit in everything else you need. No matter what you do something important will be lacking. This makes it very hard to create a functional core engi build with Grenades. 

The end result. You have the very powerful upside of grenades:

Good damage, freedom to cast behind you, 900 range

And the downside of grenades

Pure Dps kit with no defense. Leaves you extremely vulnerable to counter-pressure if you take them, either from conditions, stuns, burst damage, or potentially all of the above. 

The end result is a balanced kit with upsides AND downsides. This is why I say Grenades are fine. The ability to cast behind you is what gives core grendier engi some semblance of defense, but it's completely negated vs projectile blocks and any class that can quickly close the gap on you like rev and thief. And due to your lack of defense when taking grenades, this usually leaves the nade engi as an easy kill. 

Holo on the other hand allows you to cover all of these weaknesses. By taking holo you can make up for these major downsides. Moreover, holo gives engi very solid melee pressure thanks to forge. So if a rev/thief jumps on you when you're spamming nades you can enter forge and fight back. This is what makes nades feel toxic. The combination of good melee pressure in forge AND the ability to kite by throwing nades behind you when you need to kite. 

That's without even factoring in the extra might gen and vulnerablity forge gives you to make nades hit harder, or the extra cleanse it gives you, removing yet another downside of running grenades. 

My point is that Holo takes what would otherwise be a balanced/weak class with stregnths AND weaknesses and removes the weaknesses. Therefore, you remove holo from the equation, nades are no longer a problem because Holo can't compensate for their flaws. 

 

 

You broke it down correctly, yep. Though I don't like how you're downplaying nade kit taking a slot up like the value isn't there, not to mention you get one shot nades from toolbelt skill if you WvW on it, and Mortar kit takes a elite skill slot over a utility slot.  You can't sell me on kits having downsides with having no cd swapping between them and benefits from weapon swapping sigils. A downside for kits would be like if you had a cooldown after swapping out of it, and locked you out of your utility skills while using a kit like Death Shroud does.  TrollingDemigod speaks truth. Scrapper is also busted spec in the long run.

 

27 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Nah they don't, it's just your opinion.

Next we should remove skills that track, skills that channel and continue to hit out of range and when the target goes into stealth, lower the range on the pet limit, remove the ability for barrage to go through overhead cover, skills that will change direction after being started like bulls charge and rush.

All skills must be activated while facing your target and they will cancel if not square and targeted.

 

See how ridiculous this sounds?

Yours is a part of that list.

The only healthy game play is that players get healthy and stop playing drunk and blaming lack of skill on "unhealthy mechanics".

 

They literally aim at you while running away, why you chasing, why you mad?

 

 

 

Sounds like a healthy changes for the game. Stay mad, and throw a fit, when the changes comes or if it doesn't. I'm not the one in charge of balancing the game at the end of the day, it's CMC. I'm calling out unhealthy game design and you're fuming over my 'opinion' on it. Are you scared he's going to look at this thread and actually get to work on doing this? Lmao. You bring up chasing a mortar or nade engi, but then you stop chasing a mortar nade engi, and they turn around and continue to spam the same high damage projectiles at you. Then again what can i expect from a thief player, when they have all the options to just leave as they please from a situation like that lol.

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24 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

You broke it down correctly, yep. Though I don't like how you're downplaying nade kit taking a slot up like the value isn't there, not to mention you get one shot nades from toolbelt skill if you WvW on it, and Mortar kit takes a elite skill slot over a utility slot.  You can't sell me on kits having downsides with having no cd swapping between them and benefits from weapon swapping sigils. A downside for kits would be like if you had a cooldown after swapping out of it, and locked you out of your utility skills while using a kit like Death Shroud does.  TrollingDemigod speaks truth. Scrapper is also busted spec in the long run.

 

Sounds like a healthy changes for the game. Stay mad, and throw a fit, when the changes comes or if it doesn't. I'm not the one in charge of balancing the game at the end of the day, it's CMC. I'm calling out unhealthy game design and you're fuming over my 'opinion' on it. Are you scared he's going to look at this thread and actually get to work on doing this? Lmao. You bring up chasing a mortar or nade engi, but then you stop chasing a mortar nade engi, and they turn around and continue to spam the same high damage projectiles at you. Then again what can i expect from a thief player, when they have all the options to just leave as they please from a situation like that lol.

At this point my only suggestion is play nade/mortar engi without Holo. If you still think they're broken then fair enough. 

Assuming we nerf holo and that fails...

Mortar quickness Scrapper is probably the most likely to overperform if I had to bet money. It can wreak havok in teamfights if not focused and the opposing team fails to play around it. I'm doubtful it would out perform other picks like Renegade or Soulbeast for the same role, but... if by some chance it does, THEN look at mortar.  Scrapper does have the unique benefit of permanent superspeed/quickness in PvP (if spamming utilities on cooldown)

Same for nades. Anet should hit holo first. See if Scrapper overperforms. If so, and the common denominator is Nades, hit nades. 

I'm once again doubtful since nade damage on Scrapper is less than ideal, and you really like Bulwark and Egun. Acid bomb is actually nuts node pressure and fumigate is big value in teamfights

That seems like the best course of action to me. 

Anyway, I'll leave it there. On a different note...

Merry Christmas tyrians!

Edited by Kuma.1503
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51 minutes ago, Skoll.8650 said:

You broke it down correctly, yep. Though I don't like how you're downplaying nade kit taking a slot up like the value isn't there, not to mention you get one shot nades from toolbelt skill if you WvW on it, and Mortar kit takes a elite skill slot over a utility slot.  You can't sell me on kits having downsides with having no cd swapping between them and benefits from weapon swapping sigils. A downside for kits would be like if you had a cooldown after swapping out of it, and locked you out of your utility skills while using a kit like Death Shroud does.  TrollingDemigod speaks truth. Scrapper is also busted spec in the long run.

 

Sounds like a healthy changes for the game. Stay mad, and throw a fit, when the changes comes or if it doesn't. I'm not the one in charge of balancing the game at the end of the day, it's CMC. I'm calling out unhealthy game design and you're fuming over my 'opinion' on it. Are you scared he's going to look at this thread and actually get to work on doing this? Lmao. You bring up chasing a mortar or nade engi, but then you stop chasing a mortar nade engi, and they turn around and continue to spam the same high damage projectiles at you. Then again what can i expect from a thief player, when they have all the options to just leave as they please from a situation like that lol.

You say its unhealthy, I say its healthy.

 

Get gooder matey

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6 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

😕

 

Look, if it's okay for certain classes to do it, everyone should be able, period. It's not some cool quirk, it's quite literally exceptions by conscious choices of the devs that we can see evidently have huge impact on performance of the professions.

 

Honestly I don't want to see it, as annoying as it is already. Professions that play close quarters are at a huge disadvantage with this dumb stuff and those that can't shoot from behind are simply inferior.

 

Shortbow is a strong weapon and it factually cannot be denied.

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4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I don't like the design of Explosive Entrance myself. I'd really rather the power of the trait not be tied to dodges, but I wouldn't say it's overpowered when you take it in the context of Engineer's kit. 

 Is it stronger than other similar traits on other classes, sure, but Engi also has some pretty bad power damage traitlines compared to other classes outside of explosives. Firearms is  a meme, and tools has been nerfed into the ground, so if it does get hit, I'd like to see some of that power distributed elsewhere. 

As for why I bring Holo into the equation, I explain that above. Nades and Mortar kit are balanced. They have upsides and some pretty noteworthy weaknesses. The problem is that Holo completely negates their  weaknesses, as well as the rest of core engi's weaknesses in general. That's why it'll keep overperforming even if you nerf all of the above, EE, nades, and mortar. 

I don't think it's worth the hit core/scrapper would have to take to nerf these if it doesn't even bring down the actual culprit in the meta at the moment. I can understand why others who don't play engi or care much about the core spec are willing to make that trade and just nerf again if and when it doesn't work. 

However, as an engi main, and as someone who would like core engi to remain at the very least PLAYABLE in PvP. I'd like this next round of nerfs to be done right. 

Making balanced proffesions underpowered is objectively bad balance. Making one of the weakest core classes (arguably the weakest core class when using the very skills that people in this thread want to nerf) weaker is also objectively bad balance. 

Toning down an overpowered elite spec on the other hand, is a justifiable change. 

 If holo had less mobility, less built in sustain, and less cleanse for example, they'd be much harder pressed to slot in a pure dps utility like Grenade kit. Otherwise they'd fall short in 1v1's and/or roaming for the same reasons core engi does. The actual weaknesses of the class, and Grenades/mortar would start to show. 

I'm pretty sure a lot of classes have some "meme" traitlines that are completely waste of space at this point.
I wouldn't say that Explosive Entrance is "overpowred", it just need some sort of "I need 300IQ and use the effect at very specific moment in time to actually benefit" instead of "lmao, dodge, 1111, boom boom, rinse and repeat", the ICD would be great to stop that spammability by a lot and promote some skillful gameplay with future planning.
I'm not denying that Holosmith is busted, because it is like pretty much every single e-spec, it's built on top of core after all.
I'm all for nerfing Holosmith, but I still believe that grenades and mortar need that fix to reduce that pressure and force Engis to choose "run away/kite" or "face enemy and pressure them", because this is same logic as "defense and offense at the same time", which is what we call HoT and PoF x-packs.
I was also thinking about "blocking" specific traitlines from being "pickable" when you equip some specific e-spec traitline, same would go for removing 1 set of utility skills, this would prevent some uber broken build combinations from get-go, but it does have it own problems.
There really isn't a real winner here as long as e-speces are built on top of core classes, isntead of becoming and alternate version of them with full new set of skills, utilities and traits...

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I will just say that high disengage mobility + high range damage is an extremely dangerous combination in general as it automatically hard counters all melee builds with less mobility unless they have extreme passive sustain. Being able to fire behind while running forward with massive superspeed uptimes doesn't allow counterplay for a huge number of builds.

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7 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm pretty sure a lot of classes have some "meme" traitlines that are completely waste of space at this point.
I wouldn't say that Explosive Entrance is "overpowred", it just need some sort of "I need 300IQ and use the effect at very specific moment in time to actually benefit" instead of "lmao, dodge, 1111, boom boom, rinse and repeat", the ICD would be great to stop that spammability by a lot and promote some skillful gameplay with future planning.
I'm not denying that Holosmith is busted, because it is like pretty much every single e-spec, it's built on top of core after all.
I'm all for nerfing Holosmith, but I still believe that grenades and mortar need that fix to reduce that pressure and force Engis to choose "run away/kite" or "face enemy and pressure them", because this is same logic as "defense and offense at the same time", which is what we call HoT and PoF x-packs.
I was also thinking about "blocking" specific traitlines from being "pickable" when you equip some specific e-spec traitline, same would go for removing 1 set of utility skills, this would prevent some uber broken build combinations from get-go, but it does have it own problems.
There really isn't a real winner here as long as e-speces are built on top of core classes, isntead of becoming and alternate version of them with full new set of skills, utilities and traits...

Yeah, Anet designed themselves into a corner with Elites, and they still haven't commited to one philosophy or another. 

Holo is a balance nightmare, and Engi as a whole is in dire need of updates. Some things like firing behind you become oppressive in the right circumstances. Other parts are so laughably weak or outdated (tools, bomb kit, gadgets, turrets) that they drag the rest of the spec down. 

Nerfing nades and mortar is a band-aid fix at best. I can't advocate for it right now becsuse I know Anet wont follow up and make the appropriate changes afterwards. Asuming they did though. I'd be all for it. Remove the mechanic and rework/update both kits. 

Do the same for EE. Make it some high IQ mechanic like you said. I'd welcome that. I play engi for high IQ stuff.

CMC said they'd be looking into live balance after EoD ships. Hopefully we stzrt to see updates to unhealthy, weak or outdated stuff. 

Ele staff for example. Anyone else remember that weapon?

Edited by Kuma.1503
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11 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Look, if it's okay for certain classes to do it, everyone should be able, period. It's not some cool quirk, it's quite literally exceptions by conscious choices of the devs that we can see evidently have huge impact on performance of the professions.

 

Honestly I don't want to see it, as annoying as it is already. Professions that play close quarters are at a huge disadvantage with this dumb stuff and those that can't shoot from behind are simply inferior.

 

Shortbow is a strong weapon and it factually cannot be denied.

Shortbow is really strong on Renegade, there is no denying that.

 

There are design differences in weapons, health, defenses, utilities, traits.

 

Let me point out one to you, that has always been spicy.

 

Why does revenant get to have teleports that will chase a target when out of range, but thief steal/swipe doesn't work if foe is out of range?

My perspective is that if the revenant is out of range their teleports should not work,, jut like steal, and that goes for guard too....

 

Not within 600 or 900 units? Too bad, it doesn't work.....

 

See how dumb this sounds?

 

Class differences, make the difference.

Edited by Crab Fear.1624
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56 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Shortbow is really strong on Renegade, there is no denying that.

 

There are design differences in weapons, health, defenses, utilities, traits.

 

Let me point out one to you, that has always been spicy.

 

Why does revenant get to have teleports that will chase a target when out of range, but thief steal/swipe doesn't work if foe is out of range?

My perspective is that if the revenant is out of range their teleports should not work,, jut like steal, and that goes for guard too....

 

Not within 600 or 900 units? Too bad, it doesn't work.....

 

See how dumb this sounds?

 

Class differences, make the difference.

If you want to take it a step futher. Instead of giving "No line of sight message" when you cast spell when not facing your target. Make it not cast and go on full cooldown. That's how it works for seven shot. If you can't get used to it, just get good and play around it. 

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On 12/24/2021 at 3:10 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I also order some juicy damage nerfs for both mortar and grenades in WvW on top of your proposal.

Agree with this one, both are completely busted in WvW damage-wise. They are in urgent need of a nerf there.

 

The damage is a bit too high here in sPvP as well.

 

I also agree with this thread's suggestion, they shouldn't be able to use these skills while their backs are facing their foes.

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17 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Shortbow is really strong on Renegade, there is no denying that.

 

There are design differences in weapons, health, defenses, utilities, traits.

 

Let me point out one to you, that has always been spicy.

 

Why does revenant get to have teleports that will chase a target when out of range, but thief steal/swipe doesn't work if foe is out of range?

My perspective is that if the revenant is out of range their teleports should not work,, jut like steal, and that goes for guard too....

 

Not within 600 or 900 units? Too bad, it doesn't work.....

 

See how dumb this sounds?

 

Class differences, make the difference.

Steal is the only thing that doesn't work out of range for logical and justified reasons, Infiltrator Strike works, Judge Intervention works, Symbol of Blades work, all teleports with functionally end results that doesn't require a hit to gain buff works.

 

Would you actually enjoy the fact that Steal doesn't given you a stolen object because you're merely 1 unit away from the hit itself? That is again a concious decision from the devs, look at it not just from being a teleport but the fact that other things have to make sense with it.

 

Renegade is overrated as hell, it's good but not that good, it's got the nerfs that I so desired for and deserves to have skill 4 to require no line of sight if other classes can too. Shortbow Thief is way above it and uncomparable, when Sevenshot did Deathstrike damage, it had comparable cheese but now? Not even close. The new choking gas alone is so freaking busted compared the old progression and counterable.

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In the end, even after trying to give the op and others the benifit of doubt, I haven't heard s good reason to remove this mechanic outside of. 

"But my class cant do it"

Different classes are different. Our class cant weapon swap like everyone else, theres a reason why. 

"It's annoying" 

Which is subjective

And... 

"It lets them pressure, defend and kite with no trade-off"

Which is demonstrably false, otherwise core wouldn't be laughably weak with these skills. If we went down this rabbit hole, we'd have to nerf other stuff that isn't a problem like staff ele and scepter weaver. 

I can safely say it now, this tread is one big case of Git Gud. 

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Steal is the only thing that doesn't work out of range for logical and justified reasons, Infiltrator Strike works, Judge Intervention works, Symbol of Blades work, all teleports with functionally end results that doesn't require a hit to gain buff works.

 

Would you actually enjoy the fact that Steal doesn't given you a stolen object because you're merely 1 unit away from the hit itself? That is again a concious decision from the devs, look at it not just from being a teleport but the fact that other things have to make sense with it.

 

Renegade is overrated as hell, it's good but not that good, it's got the nerfs that I so desired for and deserves to have skill 4 to require no line of sight if other classes can too. Shortbow Thief is way above it and uncomparable, when Sevenshot did Deathstrike damage, it had comparable cheese but now? Not even close. The new choking gas alone is so freaking busted compared the old progression and counterable.

 

Tbh, Shortbow 4 SHOULD  require no LoS. 

 

You fire arrows into a portal. SMH

 

 

Edited by Kuma.1503
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19 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Shortbow is really strong on Renegade, there is no denying that.

 

There are design differences in weapons, health, defenses, utilities, traits.

 

Let me point out one to you, that has always been spicy.

 

Why does revenant get to have teleports that will chase a target when out of range, but thief steal/swipe doesn't work if foe is out of range?

My perspective is that if the revenant is out of range their teleports should not work,, jut like steal, and that goes for guard too....

 

Not within 600 or 900 units? Too bad, it doesn't work.....

 

See how dumb this sounds?

 

Class differences, make the difference.

Infiltrators Signet and sword two works out of range. 

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9 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

The way some players see balance, as for them its resolving around "their class" and emotions attached to it. While classes and specializations are nothing more than sets of tools, like characters in moba games.

The first sentence describes all people that ask for buffs non stop and to bring back powercreep.
Second sentence is wrong if it comes to GW2, because core classes should be seen as a complete houses and elite specializations as some fancy rocket launchers in the backyard.

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52 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

The first sentence describes all people that ask for buffs non stop and to bring back powercreep.
Second sentence is wrong if it comes to GW2, because core classes should be seen as a complete houses and elite specializations as some fancy rocket launchers in the backyard.

 

You totaly missunderstood everything. First sentence is refering to both players who want "their" class to be buffed and players who want "enemy" classes to be nerfed, for sake of their personal biased experience based on "my class vs their class". Second sentence has nothing with core and elite disparity and you shouldn't read it as such, its just remark that one shouldn't be bound to single class and rather freely move between them to achieve their goals.

 

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15 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

 

I know.

I took a one perceived weakness from my class and compared it to the strength of others, and said it should be taken away, just like he did.

Like I said, class differences.

 

 

Except I actually ask for nerfs on my class, you just don't look for it.

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37 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Except I actually ask for nerfs on my class, you just don't look for it.

Forgetting about engis access to superspeed and quickness....

 

This is the design of the weapon, it is meant for kiting and being mobile.

If I sit still and go toe to toe with rev, they will hit me with all their consume skills, the fskills, and their heal and melt me instantly.

Literally insta cast out 10k-15k worth of cumulative damage just from using sword three after preloading a shiro heal.

Why should I be confined to face you to do damage, when you can dish out 10-15k off an evading skill? (cumulatively)

By the way, thief has a global resource, we don't refill when swapping weapons, unlike swapping legends.

We don't get 2 heals, or wonka dooka damage on the front end.

If you dodge the projectile from shadowshot, we get jack kitten and no tp either.

 

There are class differences.

They can not be the same, they can not operate the same.

They shouldnt be  homogenizing the game.

 

 

It is sad how different the skill of today is compared to a few years ago.

I'm just going to go off my own class.

Double strike base damage on marauders and scholars was tooltip (900) and that is just the first series in the auto chain.

Today it is (360) on berserker amulet.

Thats about a third of the damage, on a stronger amulet.

Mug hit harder, pulmonary impact could do about 2k if you interupted someone using a skill, unhindered combatant didnt cause exhaustion, signet of agilty refilled endurance completely,  blinding powder was instant, heartseeker could be camera manipulated to get more leaps in a single black powder.

A daredevil had steal and 1200 range.

They hit harder, moved faster, dodged more, could really +1 and be across the map in a flash, and shortbow only cost 6 ini.

 

Thing is, with that beast of a daredevil, players were able to beat them, and didn't complain as much as even today.

The game is so watered down, and this is just my example of daredevil.

Even herald was a monster back then too, with shiro impossible odds giving the quickness and superspeed....

 

Players are NOT as good as the old vets, and are delusional in thinking they are.

The game was harder until a few months after POF when the great nerfenings began.

Doesn't matter if players played it longer, they played watery soup.

Old GW2 was a stew.

 

Stop whining, complaining, and get gooder.

 

Or accept that you are at your limit....

 

 

Edited by Crab Fear.1624
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2 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Forgetting about engis access to superspeed and quickness....

 

This is the design of the weapon, it is meant for kiting and being mobile.

If I sit still and go toe to toe with rev, they will hit me with all their consume skills, the fskills, and their heal and melt me instantly.

Literally insta cast out 10k-15k worth of cumulative damage just from using sword three after preloading a shiro heal.

Why should I be confined to face you to do damage, when you can dish out 10-15k off an evading skill? (cumulatively)

By the way, thief has a global resource, we don't refill when swapping weapons, unlike swapping legends.

We don't get 2 heals, or wonka dooka damage on the front end.

If you dodge the projectile from shadowshot, we get jack kitten and no tp either.

 

There are class differences.

They can not be the same, they can not operate the same.

They shouldnt be  homogenizing the game.

 

 

It is sad how different the skill of today is compared to a few years ago.

I'm just going to go off my own class.

Double strike base damage on marauders and scholars was tooltip (900) and that is just the first series in the auto chain.

Today it is (360) on berserker amulet.

Thats about a third of the damage, on a stronger amulet.

Mug hit harder, pulmonary impact could do about 2k if you interupted someone using a skill, unhindered combatant didnt cause exhaustion, signet of agilty refilled endurance completely,  blinding powder was instant, heartseeker could be camera manipulated to get more leaps in a single black powder.

A daredevil had steal and 1200 range.

They hit harder, moved faster, dodged more, could really +1 and be across the map in a flash, and shortbow only cost 6 ini.

 

Thing is, with that beast of a daredevil, players were able to beat them, and didn't complain as much as even today.

The game is so watered down, and this is just my example of daredevil.

Even herald was a monster back then too, with shiro impossible odds giving the quickness and superspeed....

 

Players are NOT as good as the old vets, and are delusional in thinking they are.

The game was harder until a few months after POF when the great nerfenings began.

Doesn't matter if players played it longer, they played watery soup.

Old GW2 was a stew.

 

Stop whining, complaining, and get gooder.

 

Or accept that you are at your limit....

 

 

I could simply elaborate on everything that you said piece by piece, showing you how it truly is but I won't. It's useless, believe what you want, the game is far from being watered down. It's in fact, much more interesting than it was years ago.

 

That you wish for Steal/Swipe to work like other ports or that Shiro getting quickness and superspeed over what it is right now was miles better really says a lot about your comprehension that it's not worth considering since you're not getting what is objectively on the table. That you think this is all about me playing Rev (For real?), as if I never played Thief or have had nothing to consider but myself, no you don't understand it at all.

 

If there's any redeeming value to it, look at what you are truly doing at face value before thinking that you have it worst. Go on about and scratch the dirt off the very bottom of the can from your profession like I did to truly know what it means to be useless and underpowered.

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