What is plaguing the meta

[Sindrener.1592]

9 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

Im not that old on gw2 sindrener, unfourtunately I didnt get the golden age of pw, so I couldnt watch any video of those times, I wish! R.I.P.

sp dead, check.
sd meh, check.
dpsa sick off, but only thing u can do atm, check.
core necro/scourge, hate it, check.
100% agreed.

I couldnt test specter properly cause I play action cam, it had some bugs with, so I hope I can dig more when it drops officially.

Hope u can stream more often soon

Well s/p was made meta end of 2019 and then i made core dp busted which just destroyed pw but still was by far the most fun ive had since hot times

[anjo.6143]

Just now, bluri.2653 said:

Well s/p was made meta end of 2019 and then i made core dp busted which just destroyed pw but still was by far the most fun ive had since hot times

My bad then, it wasnt 3 years, but 2, I started play/watch ur streamings in the last days of core dp meta.
Im having some fun with dd mechanics, but i cant really enjoy condi, i tried, but meh, and i couldnt make dd power be any impactful, so Im stick with dpsa aswell

[CutesySylveon.8290]

54 minutes ago, bluri.2653 said:

Well s/p was made meta end of 2019 and then i made core dp busted which just destroyed pw but still was by far the most fun ive had since hot times

I've heard a lot of people say they hate the HoT erra but it was definitely the most fun time for me as well, specifically around early 2016. Everything was bonkers but it was fun.

[Sindrener.1592]

12 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

I've heard a lot of people say they hate the HoT erra but it was definitely the most fun time for me as well, specifically around early 2016. Everything was bonkers but it was fun.

People hated early/mid of hot correct. Near the end it was one of if noy the best meta we have had imo

[Mik.3401]

I think the classes which deserve nerfs at the moment are necro, guardian, thief and engi.

Ranger is annoying too but it is an AI class so the pets should be rather reworked, especially the infamous drake.

The other classes are fine or in the process of being deleted by anet. Mesmer has been killed slowly since forever now and warrior is already 6 feet underground 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Zekent.3652]

13 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I think the classes which deserve nerfs at the moment are necro, guardian, thief and engi.

Ranger is annoying too but it is an AI class so the pets should be rather reworked, especially the infamous drake.

The other classes are fine or in the process of being deleted by anet. Mesmer has been killed slowly since forever now and warrior is already 6 feet underground 

Even without pets, rangers have a really good powercreep and unfairly bad nerfed/unnerfed skills, the pet is a broken AI with extra pressure, it's a problem of both, not just the pet or just the ranger.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Zizekent.2398

[Sindrener.1592]

18 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I think the classes which deserve nerfs at the moment are necro, guardian, thief and engi.

Ranger is annoying too but it is an AI class so the pets should be rather reworked, especially the infamous drake.

The other classes are fine or in the process of being deleted by anet. Mesmer has been killed slowly since forever now and warrior is already 6 feet underground 

Nerf mes and war they deserve it buff nec,thief,guard

[Myror.7521]

@bluri.2653 right we all know it. Berserker is a strong Support and damage dealer and see play in every gamemode.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

15 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@bluri.2653 right we all know it. Berserker is a strong Support and damage dealer and see play in every gamemode.

1 Place banner
2 Die
3 ???
4 Profit

[Genesis.5169]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:22 PM, Dantheman.3589 said:

 

mesmer- same as warrior, invuln frames are over the top and power block is good

 

I actually missed that in my original reading.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Genesis.5169

[Dantheman.3589]

Lots of good stuff guys, I’m glad people read it.

 

one of the main things I’m hearing is only one class needs nerfs and keep the rest, for example just nerf lich or necro- obviously it kindof defeats the purpose of the list so I won’t change it but I’ll say, if all you do is nerf lich it seems some agree we will be in a very tanky meta. I do think it’s unfair to keep necro as the only thing that can beat necro, so I think we’d have to be careful of that.

 

I also hear a lot of shadow arts thief needing nerfs, but the thing with my idea is that it already got nerfed some and remains good. I don’t wanna see another acro trait line happen, so while I kindof agree I think it would better to shave off those areas and add to others.

 

suprised though I didn’t hear much about trappers rune. I will just say it’s annoying but stab uptime seems to make it much worse so I think I’m right about that.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

3 hours ago, Dantheman.3589 said:

Lots of good stuff guys, I’m glad people read it.

 

one of the main things I’m hearing is only one class needs nerfs and keep the rest, for example just nerf lich or necro- obviously it kindof defeats the purpose of the list so I won’t change it but I’ll say, if all you do is nerf lich it seems some agree we will be in a very tanky meta. I do think it’s unfair to keep necro as the only thing that can beat necro, so I think we’d have to be careful of that.

 

I also hear a lot of shadow arts thief needing nerfs, but the thing with my idea is that it already got nerfed some and remains good. I don’t wanna see another acro trait line happen, so while I kindof agree I think it would better to shave off those areas and add to others.

 

suprised though I didn’t hear much about trappers rune. I will just say it’s annoying but stab uptime seems to make it much worse so I think I’m right about that.

the truth is that bad skills/traits need to be buffed.
overpowered skills/traits need to be nerfed, and it applies to all classes.
as I used to be mesmer main I can tell you that over half the traits are straight useless, along with 2/3 of the utility skills.
People ask for nerfs because this forums have this toxic culture that anyone asking for buffs for a class is this class main, and ofc every class is OP in their eyes so they must be bad and must be flamed.
People with enough intellect to understand that are all gone or just done with trying. Enjoy this game for what it is because its not going to get better. People making changes are utterly incompetent at their jobs.
 

[Beast Sos.1457]

Simple answer- condition dmg. 

[Kuma.1503]

The most damning thing about power creep isn't actually the increase in power.

The most damning thing is the gap it creates between the power crept builds and the weaker, balanced ones. 

We had 2 years of almost exclusively nerfs  thinking we could avoid this scenario, but we ended up nerfing these mid-tier builds harder than the broken ones. We created the exact thing that we were trying to avoid. The biggest thing plaguing the meta is honestly the community's attitude towards it. 

When someone has the ingenuity to create a new build that is strong in the meta, the immediate response isn't "How do I deal with this new thing. What are it's weaknesses and how can we adapt the meta around it" The immediate thought is "It keeps killing me. Delete it from PvP". 

Until that changes, or until the Devs stop listening to it, there really is no hope for things to get better. 

[Shiyo.3578]

Power creep

1.  Skills that do 5 different things, generally break stuns, and are on a lower cooldown than CC as well as being INSTANT.

Anytime I kill someone it doesn't feel satisfying because I didn't do anything to make them die, they simply made enough mistakes to get themselves killed. This is due to there being too many stun breaks on too low of a cooldown, too many evades, and not enough ways to set up kills, as all hard CC is on such a HIGH cd while also being a short duration.

Other MMO PvP is ALL about CD trading. Offensive for defensive, forcing the opponent to pop a defensive CD without using your offensive and then setting up a CC chain + offensive CDS to get a kill. This game has NOTHING like that, it's just a boon spam dodge fest where you kinda just spam buttons until someone makes enough mistakes to die.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Protect_Me!"

Look at this skill, for example. In other MMO's,  a 25%+ DR cooldown is 2-3 minutes.  This could be a 3 minute cooldown elite and it'd be still be INSANELY good. What were they even thinking?

It feels like utter crap to kill people in PvP in this game.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The most damning thing about power creep isn't actually the increase in power.

The most damning thing is the gap it creates between the power crept builds and the weaker, balanced ones. 

We had 2 years of almost exclusively nerfs  thinking we could avoid this scenario, but we ended up nerfing these mid-tier builds harder than the broken ones. We created the exact thing that we were trying to avoid. The biggest thing plaguing the meta is honestly the community's attitude towards it. 

When someone has the ingenuity to create a new build that is strong in the meta, the immediate response isn't "How do I deal with this new thing. What are it's weaknesses and how can we adapt the meta around it" The immediate thought is "It keeps killing me. Delete it from PvP". 

Until that changes, or until the Devs stop listening to it, there really is no hope for things to get better. 

The truly broken specs tend to have a high skill ceiling as such they become broken at the highest level, by contrast the lower ceiling specs are deemed OP at the lowest levels. Over 90% of nerf threads are started by players who ignore the meaning of timing, dodge counting, kiting...basic pvp principles.

The low ceiling specs will fare badly against opponents who possess basic pvp knowledge...this is why MAT representation is focused always around the same 3-4 professions. Now if a company start nerfing anything that @Timmy failed to dodge...well we can see what happens  

[aymnad.9023]

Some suggestions are only directions but I would not mind them. To be fair finding the correct implementation can sometimes be hard.

Edited January 11, 2022 by aymnad.9023

[Morwath.9817]

27 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The truly broken specs tend to have a high skill ceiling as such they become broken at the highest level, by contrast the lower ceiling specs are deemed OP at the lowest levels. Over 90% of nerf threads are started by players who ignore the meaning of timing, dodge counting, kiting...basic pvp principles.

The low ceiling specs will fare badly against opponents who possess basic pvp knowledge...this is why MAT representation is focused always around the same 3-4 professions. Now if a company start nerfing anything that @Timmy failed to dodge...well we can see what happens  

 

It's not like I disagree, but... I kinda think dodge is far  worse invention for GW (GW1 to GW2 transition) than stealth and jumping puzzles in sPvP. Entire "just dodge" argument is pretty bad, because demanding average player to memorize ALL animations, then have perfect reaction time is a lot. Then we're left with gimick hard hitting abilities like True Shot, just because they can be dodged, but average player will always struggle against those, even if top players will have no issues against such classes/builds in tournaments.

[Tescao.3042]

26 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The truly broken specs tend to have a high skill ceiling as such they become broken at the highest level, by contrast the lower ceiling specs are deemed OP at the lowest levels. Over 90% of nerf threads are started by players who ignore the meaning of timing, dodge counting, kiting...basic pvp principles.

The low ceiling specs will fare badly against opponents who possess basic pvp knowledge...this is why MAT representation is focused always around the same 3-4 professions. Now if a company start nerfing anything that @Timmy failed to dodge...well we can see what happens  

Killing through СС settings can be so complicated and confusing in synergy between classes that it is easier to use selfish meta builds, which in turn make these tasks easier.

[Matthius.9104]

33 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

It's not like I disagree, but... I kinda think dodge is far  worse invention for GW (GW1 to GW2 transition) than stealth and jumping puzzles in sPvP. Entire "just dodge" argument is pretty bad, because demanding average player to memorize ALL animations, then have perfect reaction time is a lot. Then we're left with gimick hard hitting abilities like True Shot, just because they can be dodged, but average player will always struggle against those, even if top players will have no issues against such classes/builds in tournaments.

so much this. quit thinking that the majority of the playerbase has time to do this. balance for the bottom percentage and let the no-lifers float to the top and get out of the bottom elo. Or create a balance threshold. Things are balanced one way til you reach plat or something then it changes.
 

Also the cc spam in this game is ludacris right now. The elephant in the room should be rangers but i dont see nearly enough suggestions to nerf the constant root spam / trap spam / stealth / kite variant of the ranger. That is by far the most annoying playstyle i have ever seen in my life. You dodge the knockback? Cool they spit the seed at you to root you. You dodge that too? Well you step in their trap. Stun break and start attacking them? Well too bad because they start shitting damage on you and you have no dodges or cds to use. Lets just say you do start to land something good on them and deal some damage. NOPE they stealth out and drop another trap then root and lighting you to death with that kitten plant.

 

*preparing for all the "git gud" "l2p" anet balance is how I like it right now simps out there who are clearly ranger mains

[FarmBotXD.1430]

On 1/9/2022 at 8:27 PM, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Simple answer- condition dmg. 

meta, not silver rank

[Beast Sos.1457]

17 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

meta, not silver rank

If by silver you mean plat then sure. No good competitive pvp game does condition dmg for a reason. PvP and PvE work completely differently. It takes no skill to play condi or to vs condi. How to counter condi- bring cleanse. How to play as condi- spam skills. No skill required on both sides. Condi builds are usually more tanky than power and still keep up with dmg. The dmg being only countered by cleanse. Worst mechanic for a pvp game. Go look at any power build and the condi build counter part and youll see how much more tanky the condi dmg build is in most cases. 

 

Of course there are other issues but condi dmg was a huge mistake to buff in pvp. PvP was more fun before without it imo. 

[FarmBotXD.1430]

4 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

If by silver you mean plat then sure. No good competitive pvp game does condition dmg for a reason. PvP and PvE work completely differently. It takes no skill to play condi or to vs condi. How to counter condi- bring cleanse. How to play as condi- spam skills. No skill required on both sides. Condi builds are usually more tanky than power and still keep up with dmg. The dmg being only countered by cleanse. Worst mechanic for a pvp game. Go look at any power build and the condi build counter part and youll see how much more tanky the condi dmg build is in most cases. 

 

Of course there are other issues but condi dmg was a huge mistake to buff in pvp. PvP was more fun before without it imo. 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest_PvP
Meta
Power -> 4/5 builds
Condi -> 1/5
Great 
Power -> 5/7
Condi -> 2/7
Muh condi taking over pvp, reeee.
Every build takes cleansing, its vital to a build as taking ways to move around a map or remove stuns.
Low ranks cry about condis because they take cleanse but cant use it properly.
Conditions are mechanically more intensive, unlike power its often better to NOT attack, to increase your damage, and that introduces another mechanic to the game, the fact that vast majority is incapable of using it is not on the mechanic but players being generally bad in this game.
All power builds vomit all their damage off cooldown and repeat it all again.
Every time you nerf conditions the build will become more and more degenerate as it will be the only way to have a chance with overpowered in comparison power builds.
Both condi and power have braindead degenerate builds in their arsenal.
Damage type alone doesnt change anything other then condi is mechanically worse, every single condi build is WORSE then power counterpart whenever both builds are functional.

[Beast Sos.1457]

1 hour ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest_PvP
Meta
Power -> 4/5 builds
Condi -> 1/5
Great 
Power -> 5/7
Condi -> 2/7
Muh condi taking over pvp, reeee.
Every build takes cleansing, its vital to a build as taking ways to move around a map or remove stuns.
Low ranks cry about condis because they take cleanse but cant use it properly.
Conditions are mechanically more intensive, unlike power its often better to NOT attack, to increase your damage, and that introduces another mechanic to the game, the fact that vast majority is incapable of using it is not on the mechanic but players being generally bad in this game.
All power builds vomit all their damage off cooldown and repeat it all again.
Every time you nerf conditions the build will become more and more degenerate as it will be the only way to have a chance with overpowered in comparison power builds.
Both condi and power have braindead degenerate builds in their arsenal.
Damage type alone doesnt change anything other then condi is mechanically worse, every single condi build is WORSE then power counterpart whenever both builds are functional.

Its funny how people mention that meta builds are more power but dont realize why thats the case. Most of these meta builds are built off team synergy which is highly unlikely to take place in a game like gw2 where you can hypothetically get 5 supports on one team or 5 duelist builds. There is nothing in place stopping that from happening. Of course its highly unlikely but there is nothing in place on the technical side to stop it from happening. When you have a synergized comp, conditions because less potent in team fights. Thats not the case with the game. When your team is unorganized, with a random comp, conditions takes over. The same reason why you can't run condition builds in zerg fights. They will all get cleansed. A support will be able to cleanse and keep there power build teammates healthy in team fights, making conditions useless.  

 

Condition builds became less viable in organized play but that is not how the ranking system works in gw2. Thats not the main issue though. The issue is the combat system was built around power dmg. LoS, blocking, invul, power dmg immunity skills. The only thing there is for conditions is cleanse. That itself shows that condi dmg was not and should not be meant for pvp in gw2. Or any pvp games for that matter.  

 

If you get 2 players on the same skill lvl, give one a condition build and one a power build. Condition wins 90% of the time. 

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

If you get 2 players on the same skill lvl, give one a condition build and one a power build. Condition wins 90% of the time. 

The thing about this statement is that, while true, it's a bit disingenuous.

Why is it that condi builds generally win vs power builds?

To answer that, lets look at some of the most prominent condi builds in the game. With the exception of Necro, which is... an outlier in nearly every category, Condi builds are almost exclusively fall into one of two categories. 

Side Node Bunker

Condi Staff Mirage, Burn Weaver, Condi Druid. 

Or bursty 1v1ers/ Roamers 

Burn Guard, Condi Holo, and Condi Thief. 

What all of these specs have in common is that they excel in small scale fights and fall off in large scale fights. All of them either lack group pressure, or fall off hard when the enemy team has a support. 

It doesn't matter if a burn guard can burst you with burning, if the support instantly cleanses it. Then what is the burn guard left to do but twiddle his thumbs and wait for his cooldowns to come back? Only for it to get cleansed again.

Power builds don't have this issue. Thats why most teamfight builds (with the exception of Necro because it is explicitly built to teamfight) are power oriented.

Power Reaper, Power Holo, Power Herald, Power DH (well timed dragon's Maws can win fights), ect. 

One mark of a teamfight DPS is that you're going to give up some amount of personal survivability in order to maximize your damage output. The more pressure you can put on the opposing team, the more value you can generate. As a result, these builds are typically lacking in either stability, stunbreaks, or cleansing. They can 1v1 thanks to thier high damage output, but it's not their main job. 

So what happens when a power build fights a condi build?

One is generally built to teamfight, the other is generally built for 1v1s and small skirmishes.

Naturally the 1v1 oriented build would win.

 

So yes, when a power build fights a condi build, the condi build usually wins. And that is how it should be.