Unfriendly behaviour? Kicked from my own party. What can I do better?

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Hm today I wanted to complete Citadel of Flame, Path 2, Explorable.

 

Dungeon was locked so I waited for the pre-event. I mentor-ed up. Guided players through the pre-event. Opened a party "P2" in LFG.

Party quickly filled up but players voted for P1. I thought: "Okay, fine" I thought. P1 first. Then P2.

 

But during P1 the group voted to kick me so I'm out of the dungeon now. No P2. No P1. And dungeon is locked again. What is the best way to handle this situation?

Edited December 25, 2021 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Shikaru.7618]

4 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

Hm today I wanted to complete Citadel of Flame, Path 2, Explorable.

 

Dungeon was locked so I waited for the pre-event. I mentor-ed up. Guided players through the pre-event. Opened a party "P2" in LFG.

Party quickly filled up but players voted for P1. I thought: "Okay, fine" I thought. P1 first. Then P2.

 

But during P1 the group voted to kick me so I'm out of the dungeon now. No P2. No P1. And dungeon is locked again. What is the best way to handle this situation?

Sadly sometimes people just exhibit bad behavior. Report them, block, and move on. We can only speculate why the kick happened so here's some common ones.

 

1. They were a guild group that wanted to get their guildy in on the last party slot so they kicked you.

2. You mightve missed something in chat and they were telling you to do something. P1 does have a mandatory mechanic check at the end.

 

Sorry this happened to you and hope you get better teammates in the future.

[Cynder.2509]

Unless you were playing a bearbow ranger or a minion necro or have a low amount of AP this is quite uncommon. But if any of these things apply then it's pretty obvious why you were kicked and this happens, or rather, happened very often back when fractals were not released yet and only dungeons were endgame content back in the days. 
Looking up some mechanics and meta builds beforehand can minimize your chance of getting kicked. 
Another way is to specify your lfg decription in a way that is less attractive for the more experienced players who actually want to get it done fast (or what most people call "elitists") so instead like minded people join your group. 
Or maybe it's time to find a guild to do that stuff with. 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I was playing Celestial Tempest. 24k AP. 366 mastery level.

 

But it was ***my*** party. I mentored up for the pre-events, I added the LFG entry. It clearly read P2...

If I'm in someone else's party and don't follow their rules, okay, kick me. But this?

 

Anyway. I got in some great other parties this night, a wonderful player guided us all the way through Arah and in a different party I was able to complete CoF Path 2 which was the last thing I needed for my dungeon master title.

Edited December 26, 2021 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Linken.6345]

once you put it in lfg it is not your party anymore unless you have 2 friends with you.

Since they need 3 people to kick you out of 5

[TheQuickFox.3826]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

once you put it in lfg it is not your party anymore unless you have 2 friends with you.

Since they need 3 people to kick you out of 5

 

Well, that's a technical discussion. You may be right technically. But you know what I mean. The party I organized.

[Vilin.8056]

First, in a party instance it is the player who makes the most contribution leads the game, not the creator. It is never Your party, and it is never Your game. That mindset will probably get you a tough start.

Since you're running a celestial tempest (common set up for ele players who aren't into build crafting nor performance), there's a high chance that you are using a staff standing away from your party using ranged attacks, that also qualifies you as a follower than a leader.

Then another element you should reflect on is why you're kicked, 95% of that happens when the player does something that drastically hinders the party effort. I've frequently pugged random dungeon parties and haven't got kicked for the last 5 years.

Judging it's P1, my wild guess is that it could be the instance with Flame Atlars where 4 players must stay on each spot to open a gateway, where I suspect that you could be fleeing around the Flame Legion's melee distance without reading the party chat until your party member's patience ran out. My guess could be wrong, it could be other reasons, but it's less likely due to toxity.

Then back to the incident with pathing, normally the majority of the party just select whatever the first player chose, usually happens when other players don't care the path of choice.

You could have started the NPC conversation and chose the path desired while waiting for LFG to fill up, instead waiting for others to chose it for you.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[TheQuickFox.3826]

@Vilin.8056 Ty. That certainly explains some possibilities. I wasn't leading the group inside, I just organized a group for the pre-event and then LFG because LFG was empty and the dungeon was locked. I did not get time to select another path because some of the other players immediately took the lead with superspeed as soon as the dungeon gate opened and rushed to the NPC select P1. My build is fine and not ranged.

 

No party chat was ever given beyond the meta event. So the most likely explanation is that I was not leading and don't have much experience with the dungeon paths/mechanics and the ones that took the lead did not want to communicate if I did something wrong. With this experience I can should consider not organizing a party but wait for others to do so, even if that means waiting for the next day. As all times I joined other parties that the experience was perfectly fine.

Edited December 26, 2021 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Vilin.8056]

1 hour ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

@Vilin.8056 Ty. That certainly explains some possibilities. I wasn't leading the group inside, I just organized a group for the pre-event and then LFG because LFG was empty and the dungeon was locked. I did not get time to select another path because some of the other players immediately took the lead with superspeed as soon as the dongeon gate opened and rushed to the NPC select P1. My build is fine and not ranged.

 

No party chat was ever given beyond the meta event. So the most likely explanation is that I was not leading and don't have much experience with the dungeon paths/mechanics and the ones that took the lead did not want to communicate if I did something wrong. With this experience I can should consider not organizing a party but wait for others to do so, even if that means waiting for the next day. As all times I joined other parties that the experience was perfectly fine.

Path selection does not require 5 players, you can choose a path the moment you enter the instance alone, I usually did it this way while waiting for LFG to eliminate potential wait time. But even if other members triggered the selection dialogue, all party members will receive the window at the same time. So this is not the cause of how you lose control over pathing.

As for communication during mechanics, most of cases they would, because it takes far more time to look for another member than to educate on on the fly. Even if you have a mute leader, I don't think the other 3 members would quietly cast their kick vote without speaking a word or complaint. Most common cases is that in the midst of the action or panic that you did not read them until the kick took in effect. The system does not keep your party chat log of the instance if you're kicked out of the group, so you may not notice it the entire time.

The ugly truth about instanced parties with wide skill/experience gap is that sometimes what appears "fine" may be in reality just merely "tolerated". 

The mistake isn't about who makes the LFG, but as you said, in communication, but it seems neither were you making the effort. Actively tell the party you're new, tell them that you don't understand the mechanics - this way your party will know when to slow down.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[ArtemisJade.9068]

You did nothing wrong most likely. My guess is they had a friend they wanted to get in and instead of doing the proper thing and forming their own party while outside the instance with the uncontested wp map, they took your instance and just vote kicked you. There is no technical party leader in the party mode (5 players) even if you started the party and did all that. This is not so in a raid squad with a tag. It was pretty awful of them to not at least kick you before you entered the dungeon. That way you could have at least still been on the uncontested wp map. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by ArtemisJade.9068

[Chicken Fro.6953]

@TheQuickFox.3826 Sounds like they were just toxic and couldn't be bothered to explain the mechanics. Given that you mentored, organized, and had a competent-enough build for such a dungeon--and you don't seem to be a jerk--the problem is with them, not you. Hope this doesn't happen again, it really sucks when people are like that, especially in a game.

[Gregg.3970]

On 12/25/2021 at 4:20 PM, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

Hm today I wanted to complete Citadel of Flame, Path 2, Explorable.

 

Dungeon was locked so I waited for the pre-event. I mentor-ed up. Guided players through the pre-event. Opened a party "P2" in LFG.

Party quickly filled up but players voted for P1. I thought: "Okay, fine" I thought. P1 first. Then P2.

 

But during P1 the group voted to kick me so I'm out of the dungeon now. No P2. No P1. And dungeon is locked again. What is the best way to handle this situation?

As far as I see you did nothing wrong and in my humble opinion kitten situations happen like this all the times in PUGS for no reason, any reason, some reason, or perhaps 1 minor or major fault you make, some angry try-hard *the bad apple in your PUG* sees it, and instantly votes to kick you, rest players tend to be on the fence but often they feel compelled to also kick from pressure from the Bad Apple. 

 

Any group instanced content I always ask 1st in any of my 5 guilds for players before I PUG. The problem with PUGS that they can be great, people actually communicate , yet others there is zilcho conversation, totally impersonable like you might as well be playing with NPCs....... UNTIL 1 player makes that minor/major fault something and then everyone suddenly opens their mouths and not in a positive way.   

 

PUGS like irl you gonna meet the good, the bad and the downright ugly, but c'est la vie! 

[mindcircus.1506]

On 12/25/2021 at 6:21 PM, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

I was playing Celestial Tempest. 24k AP. 366 mastery level.

 

This forum is replete with posts like yours that blame an unfriendly community for poor experiences in group content. The vast majority of these posts are chock full of clues as to why the problem actually occurred rather than a whitewashed narrative. 

While I am not saying this is the case with your post, a few things do stand out to me like the above quote.

 

Are you running Arc?

Were you looking at your DPS in relation to the others on the team?

Did you have your boon table up to measure uptime on the boons you were/are providing?

 

Celestial Tempest is an objectively poor build to play for group content.

It is an open World/Solo build.

It does not provide competitive damage in a group setting, and it's boon output is substandard for a 5 man team where something like Harriers is a much stronger choice.
AP and Mastery have zero to do with your build's performance in group settings. I know plenty of people who have max masteries and can't dodge. I know people who grind every festival for their AP and half of their totals are just from dailies.

The fact you flexed them is very telling.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe you are some kind of prodigy who plays the living hell out of Cele Tempest and has found ways to make it relevant in group play.

 

If you are actually interested in examining your performance, rather than (as is the case in so many posts like these) looking for confirmation from people who don't know:

Post a video of yourself in group play with Arc running and the boon table active.

Post your actual build and gear rather than your AP and Mastery Level.

 

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

6 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

This forum is replete with posts like yours that blame an unfriendly community for poor experiences in group content. The vast majority of these posts are chock full of clues as to why the problem actually occurred rather than a whitewashed narrative. 

While I am not saying this is the case with your post, a few things do stand out to me like the above quote.

 

Are you running Arc?

Were you looking at your DPS in relation to the others on the team?

Did you have your boon table up to measure uptime on the boons you were/are providing?

 

Celestial Tempest is an objectively poor build to play for group content.

It is an open World/Solo build.

It does not provide competitive damage in a group setting, and it's boon output is substandard for a 5 man team where something like Harriers is a much stronger choice.
AP and Mastery have zero to do with your build's performance in group settings. I know plenty of people who have max masteries and can't dodge. I know people who grind every festival for their AP and half of their totals are just from dailies.

The fact you flexed them is very telling.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe you are some kind of prodigy who plays the living hell out of Cele Tempest and has found ways to make it relevant in group play.

 

If you are actually interested in examining your performance, rather than (as is the case in so many posts like these) looking for confirmation from people who don't know:

Post a video of yourself in group play with Arc running and the boon table active.

Post your actual build and gear rather than your AP and Mastery Level.

 

Dude was playing dungeon. May be people like you should stay in Raid? Which you guys managed to kill effectively. Now, spilling all over fractal and dungeon too? lol

[mindcircus.1506]

22 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Dude was playing dungeon. May be people like you should stay in Raid? Which you guys managed to kill effectively. Now, spilling all over fractal and dungeon too? lol

"People like you"....

Please.... go on....

Let's see what you think you know.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

@mindcircus.1506

I posted the AP because Cynder.2509 referenced low AP players. I just wanted to let them know that I'm not that. I fully agree that AP say little about player skill.

 

About builds and ArcDPS:

I respect your knowledge of builds and DPS optimization and I like your channel. I'm running variants of my Cele tempest build that I posted here at the forum and at my YouTube channel. It combines nice DPS with excellent sustain. I generally don't run any 3rd party add-ons for stability and security reasons, tho I have used ArcDPS some times to gather statistics after which I deleted it.

My build
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTGAAtkWX6U
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGBFsE2aUZBJMq0GTMTrsRGqjqzV7D-zxIY1ovPMSqiuUR7UEk9zbZrpN-e

 

You don't need top DPS nor ArcDPS for dungeons. These aren't raids. Dungeons are old content. With all the power creep that happened since 2012, my build would have counted as high DPS in the 2012 criteria. Ofc, many builds out-DPS what I run, but these are often the players that I have to revive because they can't take any damage. And when you're down, DPS statistics drop like a rock. If you see players die all the time in GW2, they probably picked some 5 star meta glass cannon build off MetaBattle and are wondering why they can achieve so little in game. And yes, I have played raids, also with tempest. And yes, I run different builds there. But there you have dedicated tanks and healers so the DPS players can focus solely on DPS and mechanics. With Dungeon PUGs, this simply is not the case.

 

If the kick was my fault then I did not fail on my build but as others mentioned I may have failed to take the lead or failed certain mechanics without the party members explaining them due to being in a hurry.

What my mistake might have been is listing a party in LFG while I am not an experienced player with dungeons. My original thought was: If I get a party with newbies, then that is fine and we will slowly explore the path together as we go. And be fine. And if I get a party with veterans, then I'll just follow their lead. And be fine. Next time I'll wait for an existing group to avoid the negative experience as all other dungeon paths I did this way provided me with a great and friendly cooperative experience. I never imagined the possibility to list a party for P2 and end up in P1 and being kicked there. But I learn every day.

Edited January 4, 2022 by TheQuickFox.3826

[mindcircus.1506]

1 hour ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

About builds and ArcDPS:

I respect your knowledge of builds and DPS optimization and I like your channel. I'm running variants of my Cele tempest build that I posted here at the forum and at my YouTube channel. It combines nice DPS with excellent sustain. I generally don't run any 3rd party add-ons for stability and security reasons, tho I have used ArcDPS some times to gather statistics after which I deleted it.

My build
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTGAAtkWX6U
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGBFsE2aUZBJMq0GTMTrsRGqjqzV7D-zxIY1ovPMSqiuUR7UEk9zbZrpN-e

 

This is decent open world build (minus the choice of the earth Grandmaster and heal but that's a personal preference)

This is also an objectively poor build for group play.

It is neither solid DPS (as witnessed by your numbers under completely optimal conditions), nor is it truly effective support (as witnessed by your rune/sigil choices).

So.... Weak DPS and Weak support, highlighted only by the fact you can flip between both, but at all times operating as half whatever role expected of you.

 

Quote

You don't need top DPS nor ArcDPS for dungeons. These aren't raids. Dungeons are old content. With all the power creep that happened since 2012, my build would have counted as high DPS in the 2012 criteria. Ofc, many builds out-DPS what I run, but these are often the players that I have to revive because they can't take any damage.

Your build would have counted for top DPS back before we had a tool to actually measure Damage numbers and had no real data?

Grats.

Do you need "Top DPS" for dungeons?
Of course not.
Do you need Arc for Dungeons?
Or course not.
Do you need Arc to see exactly how much you are contributing and how much you are doing in relation to other players?
Yes

Considering your gear and build it is entirely possible that those people you are proud of  "picking up" are likely outdamaging you (possibly by a factor of several times)... despite going down.
Without Arc, you just don't know and are likely living in a bubble that is reinforced by confirmation bias.

The reality is you showed up on a build that under completely optimal circumstances has a theoretical limit that is less than half that of a proper damage setup... and your support potential is even worse. Your boon duration is crap and your healing output is held back by the gear and trait choices.

You brought a knife to a gunfight.

Compounded by the facts that you:
-had never done the content (as evidenced by your lack of the title)
-did not ask for any directions ("No party chat was ever given beyond the meta event.")
-Were acting as if it were "your party" long after the kick (as evidenced by your posts) despite offering zero guidance/mentorship
-Believe that a 2012 build and gear setup is relevant today

and I can certainly see a combination of reasons that would absolutely lead to a kick.

Because from a casual observer's viewpoint showing up for group content in a bad gear and build setup, for content you have never done without speaking up about being new smacks of demanding a carry.

Are you 100% sure you weren't?

Edited January 4, 2022 by mindcircus.1506

[TheQuickFox.3826]

42 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

This is decent open world build (minus the choice of the earth Grandmaster and heal but that's a personal preference)

This is also an objectively poor build for group play.

It is neither solid DPS (as witnessed by your numbers under completely optimal conditions), nor is it truly effective support (as witnessed by your rune/sigil choices).

So.... Weak DPS and Weak support, highlighted only by the fact you can flip between both, but at all times operating as half whatever role expected of you.

 

Your build would have counted for top DPS back before we had a tool to actually measure Damage numbers and had no real data?

Grats.

Do you need "Top DPS" for dungeons?
Of course not.
Do you need Arc for Dungeons?
Or course not.
Do you need Arc to see exactly how much you are contributing and how much you are doing in relation to other players?
Yes

Considering your gear and build it is entirely possible that those people you are proud of  "picking up" are likely outdamaging you (possibly by a factor of several times)... despite going down.
Without Arc, you just don't know and are likely living in a bubble that is reinforced by confirmation bias.

The reality is you showed up on a build that under completely optimal circumstances has a theoretical limit that is less than half that of a proper damage setup... and your support potential is even worse. Your boon duration is crap and your healing output is held back by the gear and trait choices.

You brought a knife to a gunfight.

Compounded by the facts that you:
-had never done the content (as evidenced by your lack of the title)
-did not ask for any directions ("No party chat was ever given beyond the meta event.")
-Were acting as if it were "your party" long after the kick (as evidenced by your posts) despite offering zero guidance/mentorship
-Believe that a 2012 build and gear setup is relevant today

and I can certainly see a combination of reasons that would absolutely lead to a kick.

Because from a casual observer's viewpoint showing up for group content in a bad gear and build setup, for content you have never done without speaking up about being new smacks of demanding a carry.

Are you 100% sure you weren't?

 

Hm, it wasn't my intention to request a carry and didn't request one. I just thought that nobody was taking initiative (LFG was empty) so I decided to do so.

I thought that dungeons as content type would be more accessible to players with various builds, experience and skill levels. Hence I'm considering my build fine for dungeons but not for raids. Being it old content of which some do not even require a level-80 char. I thought that I would be fine with my L80 char with my open world build on which I have a ton of experience and all ascended/legendary gear. But perhaps I misjudged this. This experience surely made me anxious to ever attempt to organize a group for it. Next time I rather wait two days to join an existing one. And considering I don't like stringent build requirements / dps meters as with the raiding community, maybe I should avoid the dungeons as well and focus more on open world, strikes, DRMs and low level fractals.

[mindcircus.1506]

6 minutes ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

 

Hm, it wasn't my intention to request a carry and didn't request one. I just thought that nobody was taking initiative (LFG was empty) so I decided to do so.

I thought that dungeons as content type would be more accessible to players with various builds, experience and skill levels. Hence I'm considering my build fine for dungeons but not for raids. Being it old content of which some do not even require a level-80 char. I thought that I would be fine with my L80 char with my open world build on which I have a ton of experience and all ascended/legendary gear. But perhaps I misjudged this. This experience surely made me anxious to ever attempt to organize a group for it. Next time I rather wait two days to join an existing one. And considering I don't like stringent build requirements / dps meters as with the raiding community, maybe I should avoid the dungeons as well and focus more on open world, strikes, DRMs and low level fractals.

or maybe you should just bring a group build for group content.

I realize it doesnt carry nearly the same value in empty rhetoric... but it works I promise.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

2 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

or maybe you should just bring a group build for group content.

I realize it doesnt carry nearly the same value in empty rhetoric... but it works I promise.

You really need to lay off the idea of forcing or even suggesting people to bring optimal build for dungeon run.  I have done countless dungeon where I have seen some doing under 500 dps to over 10k dps in random pugs.

Nobody has kicked anyone over dps in dungeon. Now, I have seen people getting kicked for their guild mate and sometime people who spoke different language and not understanding mechanics after repeating 10+ times on chat which stalled the run.

I don't even know what to tell you except I think you are not made for pug run. Your name says "Mind over meta" ironically 🙂

Only thing I'd suggest op to be clear on LFG. It won't hurt to mention new to dungeon or going slow or watching cut scene if that is your thing.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Yellow Rainbow.6142

[mindcircus.1506]

I had forgotten who you were until.....
 

13 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Nobody has kicked anyone over dps in dungeon.

Then I realized you have a very long history of confronting people offering salient advice with ridiculous statements like that until called out over them....at which point you tend to spew some weird incoherent "word soup" of improperly used MMO industry jargon and often going back to edit your responses several days after posting.

Seen you do it a half dozen times now.

I'll pass.

[anduriell.6280]

5 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

What my mistake might have been is listing a party in LFG while I am not an experienced player with dungeons. My original thought was: If I get a party with newbies, then that is fine and we will slowly explore the path together as we go. And be fine. And if I get a party with veterans, then I'll just follow their lead. And be fine. Next time I'll wait for an existing group to avoid the negative experience as all other dungeon paths I did this way provided me with a great and friendly cooperative experience. I never imagined the possibility to list a party for P2 and end up in P1 and being kicked there. But I learn every day.

That should not be a "mistake". How on heavens will we get new groups in LFG for newbies. 

That is an issue Anet needs to fix: The group leader can not kicked from their own squad / party at least. Otherwise this hijacking of LFG groups is very toxic. 

It is happening a bit too often in fractals too, just kicking  before killing the the boss so they can bring in their second account in the instance. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by anduriell.6280

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

2 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

I had forgotten who you were until.....
 

Then I realized you have a very long history of confronting people offering salient advice with ridiculous statements like that until called out over them....at which point you tend to spew some weird incoherent "word soup" of improperly used MMO industry jargon and often going back to edit your responses several days after posting.

Seen you do it a half dozen times now.

I'll pass.

what are you trying to say that people who is not good in english language shouldn't post on forum? You feel more intelligent because you know english better than me? Yeah, I have encountered many people just like you in real life as well. And, yes I don't back down from bullies.

Here is another edit just for you. You understand my incoherent "word soup" perfectly fine and am I editing this after a year??

Edited January 4, 2022 by Yellow Rainbow.6142

[TheQuickFox.3826]

10 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

or maybe you should just bring a group build for group content.

I realize it doesnt carry nearly the same value in empty rhetoric... but it works I promise.

 

It would disappoint me if GW2 dungeons would not be accessible for players without meta builds. This is content I expect to be doable for characters with way lesser effective builds than I brought. In fact. This is the second time I did a full dungeons run. Now I did them on my alt account now which has exactly the same gear as I use on my main. Back in 2014 I completed all dungeon paths with PUGs on my main account with a far lesser build consisting of mostly randomly acquired rare and exotic items. You know, your average newbie stuff. The build I brought with the recent run is far more effective. Yeah, it kills a bit slower than your average glass cannon zerker build but I value the survivability that Cele tempest brings to the table. My build has been very well thought out and tweaked over the years as my general purpose build. With unfamiliar content I always start on this build because it can do anything and when I get familiar I may switch to something more specialized.

 

Again, I value your knowledge of build crafting and I fully understand stringent build requirements in high-end content like raids and t4 fractals as without them, the entire group fails. And how much I dislike the requirements there, I fully understand that and why they are needed. But in the dungeons I can't expect requirements like this. Fortunately for me this path where I got kicked was the exception. With the other paths and other dungeons I had a great experience and got compliments for my contribution to the total of the group.

 

Anyway. The group never explained why they kicked me. But I got some suggestions on what it could have been either a failure from my side or unfriendly behavior by the group members, making me a bit less baffled and clueless. Thanks all for the replies so far.

Edited January 4, 2022 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Schimmi.6872]

7 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That should not be a "mistake". How on heavens will we get new groups in LFG for newbies. 

That is an issue Anet needs to fix: The group leader can not kicked from their own squad / party at least. Otherwise this hijacking of LFG groups is very toxic. 

It is happening a bit too often in fractals too, just kicking  before killing the the boss so they can bring in their second account in the instance. 

Sadly people will always find ways to abuse the grouping systems, group leaders are nothing new and the current majority vote system was implemented because group leaders abused their power even more back when they existed.