Reflect Reflect,Block,Reflect,Block.

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Right, and they also affect projectiles. There are tons of skills that protect against everything, and tons of skills that protect against only projectiles, but none that only protect against non-projectiles. That's not very fair.

I want WvW to open up to projectile skills too. They don't have to be meta, but they shouldn't be completely shut out either. I don't think Engi mainhand pistol needs to be as good as Rev hammer or Ele staff in a zerg fight, but for godssake, it should do something. rather than nothing.

If by "tons" you mean maybe 10 skills in total that affect more than one player.

[coro.3176]

18 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Also if you pick your targets and position carefully, you can absolutely pew pew at players in zergs just fine.

You cannot. No amount of target picking or angle-changing will get around a well-placed bubble, or one that moves with the zerg like Defense Field.

18 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Look, you'd have a point if builds like longbow ranger, rifle deadeye or nade engi were bad across the board, but that's not the case. WvW isn't just about large stacked blobs with 2/3rd on support builds. Gotta take other stuff into consideration too.

My point isn't about overall effectiveness in various situations. It's about projectiles' utter ineffectiveness in this one common situation compared to non-projectiles for no particular reason. Why is Necro scepter or axe allowed to track and hit targets through anti-projectile, but Engi pistol or rifle not?

Edited December 30, 2021 by coro.3176

[Zyreva.1078]

20 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

You cannot. No amount of target picking or angle-changing will get around a well-placed bubble, or one that moves with the zerg like Defense Field.

Those things usually don't cover the entire zerg.

Quote

My point isn't about overall effectiveness in various situations. It's about projectiles' utter ineffectiveness in this one common situation compared to non-projectiles for no particular reason. Why is Necro scepter or Mesmer greatsword allowed to track and hit targets, through anti-projectile, but Engi pistol or rifle not?

Why has ranger lb 1,5k+ range and mes gs only 1,2k? Why does engi have stealth and superspeed and necro doesn't? Well, why not?

Funnily enough, pistol is used on support scrapper and a lot more commonly found in zergs than GS mesmer. It is also very strong on cele scrapper for smaller fights. So clearly the weapon is already more useful than mesmer gs and not in need of (indirect) buffs (and even if every single piece of projectile hate would get deleted, your pistol would still do nothing in zergs fights while becoming stronger in situations where it is already very powerful and that's the exact opposite of improving balance).

Edited December 30, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[coro.3176]

7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Funnily enough, pistol is used on support scrapper and a lot more commonly found in zergs than GS mesmer. 

That's only because there is literally no other mainhand weapon to use with shield. They're running it for shield, not for any skill on pistol.

7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Those things usually don't cover the entire zerg.

Gonna have to disagree. They certainly cover an entire organized group, which is the kind of fighting I'm talking about. Yes, pug stomping in EBG tends to have less support and you can use projectiles more there. I'm talking more about serious WvW groups fighting each other for objectives.

Edited December 30, 2021 by coro.3176

[Zyreva.1078]

4 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

That's only because there is literally no other mainhand weapon to use with shield. They're running it for shield, not for any skill on pistol.

I know. Doesn't change any of my arguments, which you deliberately ignored.

4 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Gonna have to disagree. They certainly cover an entire organized group, which is the kind of fighting I'm talking about. Yes, pug stomping in EBG tends to have less support and you can use projectiles more there. I'm talking more about serious WvW groups fighting each other for objectives.

Most serious WvW grps don't fight each other for objectives.

[coro.3176]

13 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

even if every single piece of projectile hate would get deleted, your pistol would still do nothing in zergs fights while becoming stronger in situations where it is already very powerful and that's the exact opposite of improving balance

In that case, it would actually hit opponents, where right now it can't land any attacks due to projectile hate.

Also, I don't want projectile hate gone. I want it to be less shareable. I want one player to defend one player, not one player defend an entire zerg from ALL projectiles for 5 seconds at a time.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

52 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

My point isn't about overall effectiveness in various situations. It's about projectiles' utter ineffectiveness in this one common situation compared to non-projectiles for no particular reason.

Luckily Rangers have unblockable skills that pierce projectile hate. Love waiting for a guardian to pop their 60s wall (exaggerating ofc) and i pop that and burst em down...something ive accepted as a thing and adapted to counter it (love seeing rev in their bubbles and DH with their front shield thingy when I have my unblockables up lol)

[Justine.6351]

I got it,

Change projectile block fields into a field that reduces projectile damage by 50%.

Change projectile reflect fields into a field that causes "retaliation" damage back to the projectile user.

Reduce ranger longbow, warrior rifle, deadeye rifle, engine grenades by 50% damage.

 

There ya go. Now you can hit stuff.

[Justine.6351]

3 minutes ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

Luckily Rangers have unblockable skills that pierce projectile hate. Love waiting for a guardian to pop their 60s wall (exaggerating ofc) and i pop that and burst em down...something ive accepted as a thing and adapted to counter it (love seeing rev in their bubbles and DH with their front shield thingy when I have my unblockables up lol)

I've been learning to do the same on mesmer with mirror blade 😂

What's even funnier though is stunning people who go into an evading attack on me and I pop my mantra heal with runes of the air. Had to drop my scholar runes to fight thieves and revs more effectively but I was willing to adapt to do better. Shocking how that works right?

[Zikory.6871]

Any semi competent Herald should be doing decent damage with auto bolts. Lobbing them into a dome or reflects is a player issue. Pick your targets better. 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

26 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

I've been learning to do the same on mesmer with mirror blade 😂

What's even funnier though is stunning people who go into an evading attack on me and I pop my mantra heal with runes of the air. Had to drop my scholar runes to fight thieves and revs more effectively but I was willing to adapt to do better. Shocking how that works right?

Very shocking...that concept is unheard of xD

[Charybdis.3695]

It might be fair to have the option to swap between having the chance to cause a combo finisher with projectiles (20% on auto attacks with longbow for ranger) versus having a chance (15%?) that the projectile attack is unblockable.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Echo.6310

[Zyreva.1078]

52 minutes ago, Echo.6310 said:

It might be fair to have the option to swap between having the chance to cause a combo finisher with projectiles (20% on auto attacks with longbow for ranger) versus having a chance (15%?) that the projectile attack is unblockable.

Rng chance of defensive skills not working is terrible, so is randomly rewarding players for mindlessly pew pewing into reflects. Awful suggestion.

[Jski.6180]

I still think a "block" ammo system would do a lot of good for both general block skills reflect and ranged blocks. Kind of like Unblockable works though i never seen some one go though a full 10 charges for its duration.

[Aeolus.3615]

At the end of the day its just a issue of team work with some culprit leaning to class design, theres one class that makes alies do unblockables  and daze targets, players IMO are not playing the game well, just boon stack minstrell blobs with condi  bunkers more like sturdy  spammers group back and forwards, there isnt a good class experience in  medium do much larger combats due how good the  omni ball effect is since  every boon can become perma  and reaplyed intantly, so only classes that excells at aoe spam will be used, or more like thats the classes that most players think they will be effective.

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I still think a "block" ammo system would do a lot of good for both general block skills reflect and ranged blocks. Kind of like Unblockable works though i never seen some one go though a full 10 charges for its duration.

Can u imagine a zerg of minstrell FB   with massive blocks against each  other? xD that's for sure  what gw2 WvW  combat would turn out lol.

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

At the end of the day its just a issue of team work with some culprit leaning to class design, theres one class that makes alies do unblockables  and daze targets, players IMO are not playing the game well, just boon stack minstrell blobs with condi  bunkers more like sturdy  spammers group back and forwards, there isnt a good class experience in  medium do much larger combats due how good the  omni ball effect is since  every boon can become perma  and reaplyed intantly, so only classes that excells at aoe spam will be used, or more like thats the classes that most players think they will be effective.

Can u imagine a zerg of minstrell FB   with massive blocks against each  other? xD that's for sure  what gw2 WvW  combat would turn out lol.

 

They already have massive blocks i am talking about adding a limitation on how much they can block during the duration of there nominal block skills.

[coro.3176]

51 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

They already have massive blocks i am talking about adding a limitation on how much they can block during the duration of there nominal block skills.

There's nothing wrong with blocking everything for a duration. That's good actually. When a 50 person zerg all points at 1 player and attacks them, it's good that the 1 player can block all of the attacks for a short time.

The problem arises when players share blocks across a large group or even the entire zerg as with bubbles. In that case, 1 player in the zerg is protecting the entire blob from *all* attacks. Shared blocks and bubbles are bad because they stack additively. Individual blocks and bubbles are good because are personal protection only.

[Jski.6180]

38 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

There's nothing wrong with blocking everything for a duration. That's good actually. When a 50 person zerg all points at 1 player and attacks them, it's good that the 1 player can block all of the attacks for a short time.

The problem arises when players share blocks across a large group or even the entire zerg as with bubbles. In that case, 1 player in the zerg is protecting the entire blob from *all* attacks. Shared blocks and bubbles are bad because they stack additively. Individual blocks and bubbles are good because are personal protection only.

It is a problem to stop 50 ish skills effect with one skill on a reltive low cd. The same thing could be said for ranged attks too.

By adding in a "ammo" you can play with balancing blocks and reflections with out comply throwing out the ideal of the effect.

[coro.3176]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

It is a problem to stop 50 ish skills effect with one skill on a reltive low cd. The same thing could be said for ranged attks too.

By adding in a "ammo" you can play with balancing blocks and reflections with out comply throwing out the ideal of the effect.

Nah, GW2 combat is built around that. That's what dodge is. It's a short window of total invuln to everything (... except like walls or whatever)

I don't like aegis stacks or block/reflect "ammo" because as a user above said, they encourage people to blindly attack into an opponent's defense in order to overwhelm it, rather than playing around it. I actually like playing around defense. It feels skillful. It just becomes a problem when defense is being shared and there's no way to play around it except by using a very limited subset of skills (non-projectile).

[Jski.6180]

On 12/31/2021 at 2:57 PM, coro.3176 said:

Nah, GW2 combat is built around that. That's what dodge is. It's a short window of total invuln to everything (... except like walls or whatever)

I don't like aegis stacks or block/reflect "ammo" because as a user above said, they encourage people to blindly attack into an opponent's defense in order to overwhelm it, rather than playing around it. I actually like playing around defense. It feels skillful. It just becomes a problem when defense is being shared and there's no way to play around it except by using a very limited subset of skills (non-projectile).

Some skills and effects have ammo when others dont. GW2 combat is built around what anet has forgot to update.

[Aeolus.3615]

11 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Some skills and effects have ammo when others dont. GW2 combat is built around what anet has forgot to update.

This is so true ...

 

yesterday fought a group of 15-18 players, arround 7'ish were minstrells scrappers,  they were perma  domed, imo this is where the issue is.

Ill keep saying, remove the dome from scrapper toolbelt and give a front wall skill simmiliar to guardian wall of reflection, or some  selfless shield arroround the toon that reflects,  at least they loose the 360º absortion perma rotations when moving, make it a device that consumes conditions when reach a certain limit will explode in the counter boon, like a batery for the selected (1) condition to be stored over time.

On alternative make its CD far bigger than what it is, altough scrapper dome could even last 2-3 seconds but would be a active skill  to diminuish ocndi bombs players would still take the damage but would convert incoming conditions to boons with half duration.

Scrappers dont have trade offs for being perma domes vs range, just stack them.... its not ok, we are going with a similiar path pré-resistance, where groups  could easilly aply perma resistance after being removed. 

Revenants has a very  huge draw back if they want to support with this kinda of stuff wich is ok imo, and thats where balance is.

Guardians loose option for good utility if they want Sanctuary and/or with WoR, they have shield 5 SoA that cant be casted while atacking, if they perform any actions will interrupting  its own shield dome.

 

Note: even guardian weapons skills form sword, GS, hammer, focus, can be absorved by domes xD... rangers here are not alone.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Zikory.6871]

26 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

yesterday fought a group of 15-18 players, arround 7'ish were minstrells scrappers,  they were perma  domed, imo this is where the issue is.

That's pretty impressive tbh. Defense Field is 5s Duration with 25s CD, 7 Scrappers give a little bit of a buffer but rotating the domes throughout a fight for 100% uptime isn't some something a lot of groups are coordinated enough to do. 

But say you have 7 Scrappers in 15 players. 3 parties. Do they have FBs? 1 per party? 10 of there 15 are support scrappers and Firebrands? Not sure how they are actually killing people. 

This seems like a unlikely scenario considering Scourge, Herald, Weaver and Dragon Hunter are the stronger dps classes at the moment and none of their major skills are affected by defense field. 

[Aeolus.3615]

39 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

That's pretty impressive tbh. Defense Field is 5s Duration with 25s CD, 7 Scrappers give a little bit of a buffer but rotating the domes throughout a fight for 100% uptime isn't some something a lot of groups are coordinated enough to do. 

But say you have 7 Scrappers in 15 players. 3 parties. Do they have FBs? 1 per party? 10 of there 15 are support scrappers and Firebrands? Not sure how they are actually killing people. 

This seems like a unlikely scenario considering Scourge, Herald, Weaver and Dragon Hunter are the stronger dps classes at the moment and none of their major skills are affected by defense field. 

They had good alacrity as well there was quite some renegades doing it i would bet they are arround celestial since they had condi and boon duration, it was a smaller boonball group with lots of minstrells and condi bunkers, we managed to deal with them, think they only sauce of damage besides condi was CC plus DH traps.

Not sure but at least 1-2 Fb's, all i noted well was the amount of domes when they pushed, lucky we had decent mesmers on our side, we kinda had a counter-meta but it took quite some time and some left like foloing the mother duckling.

IDK what to think from gw2 wvw combat.....DPS nowadays is leave zerker/maurauder DH traps behind, and stack mostly srappers/fb/scourges all minstrell  or condi bunkers.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Zikory.6871]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

yesterday fought a group of 15-18 players, arround 7'ish were minstrells scrappers,  they were perma  domed

 I was questioning the validity of this statement. I have yet to see a group that has had permanent projectile hate. 

 

8 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

all i noted well was the amount of domes when they pushed,

This make more sense. But I'm not sure what the argument for nerfing is? Sounds like a group that is well organized and is out playing people. If they are using a certain minion comp to abuse anets target caps, then this has nothing to do with this thread. 

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

 I was questioning the validity of this statement. I have yet to see a group that has had permanent projectile hate. 

 

This make more sense. But I'm not sure what the argument for nerfing is? Sounds like a group that is well organized and is out playing people. If they are using a certain minion comp to abuse anets target caps, then this has nothing to do with this thread. 

outplaying by just stacking not sure if its a good balance  nor a good design wich is where performance comes mostly before we talk about being orgazied and imo the current combat issue, i know that other side should starting counter-meta builds but we are talking about Gw2 players here...and we all know how much gamer knowledge most have about their own toon skills.

 

btw who is talking about minion comp and target caps? im completelly lost with that comment, that's a group issue that has no comms nor know how to call targets...it has nothing do to with what is being talked here.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Aeolus.3615