New player dungeon experience

[hatebreeder.8316]

Hi all,

 

Today was the first time I ventured with a friend of mine (new player) into Ascalonian Catacombs. Three of us from the group were high level high skilled players who have been around for a while, and therefore we just blasted through the story mode. I switched to my weakest alt and one guy was swapped with a newer player, but the paths went very fast.

 

My friend had a terrible dungeon experience because of this. He was lvl 36, and he sometimes couldn't even keep up with our train and was lagging behind all the time. Sometimes he missed encounters and had trouble looting and coming after us. He only has a couple of small bags (with 8 slots) and he had to clean it all the time. He didn't get much from the runs, and sometimes he had to leave the loot in the dungeon. He told me everything was just rushed and he didn't have a good time but left with a bitter feeling.

 

I also know someone who made a post about this problem in one of the GW2 Facebook fan groups. Is this a problem that others experience as well? Is there something Anet is planning to do against this?

[Shikaru.7618]

Why the heck are you not waiting for your friend if they're lagging behind? Nothing in the game forces you to go go go as fast as possible. Wait in front of the encounter until they catch up and stop being terrible friends. If you pug, make it clear in your ad that you're not rushing and anyone who is will be removed

Edited December 28, 2021 by Shikaru.7618

[Linken.6345]

I agree how can you call yourself friends, gift them some 18 slot bags  by crafting or just buying them from tradingpost and ofcourse wait for them to catch up or walk at their speed.

[Sobx.1758]

Pretty weird to complain about "new players not being able to keep up with the veterans", when you're playing in a group of your friends and... refuse to wait for the new player. You're creating your own problem. Well... your new friend's problem.

[Nyth.6714]

The two questions you ask at the end -
Is this a problem that others experience as well? - Only in your group(s) I guess?
Is there something Anet is planning to do against this? - How is this Anet's problem?

Honestly though, is this person still your 'friend' ?
Ask your friend if they want to experience the Dungeons or any of the paths in a chill non rushed way to look me up. I will be happy to take them through so they can experience it all and I will even upgrade their bag space.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, hatebreeder.8316 said:

I also know someone who made a post about this problem in one of the GW2 Facebook fan groups. Is this a problem that others experience as well? Is there something Anet is planning to do against this?

 

Nope. When I run through dungeons with friends new to the game, I make sure they know what is going on and are able to keep up. There is no reason to speedrun dungeons for me at this point, given I have run this content thousands of times.

[hatebreeder.8316]

I don't know why I am getting so much hate here. I was with my friend, we were not a group of friends. The other players were rushing us, and they were asking: "are you guys new?" then the person who left did so because he was annoyed how slow we are. I was telling other players to wait so that my friend could sell his items between two paths. It was just a horrible experience for him.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Some veterans rushing to the rewards and some new players playing for the story, experience.

 

It's hard to make this compatible. Best solution would be to join a friendly guild that plays dungeons so you can play together at a normal pace. (And watch the cutscenes etc.)

I don't think LFG will be the best tool here. If you list a group for the explorable paths at slow pace, then most players won't join you because many just want to skip to the rewards. It's a bit of a curse of the old content.

[Shikaru.7618]

3 hours ago, hatebreeder.8316 said:

I don't know why I am getting so much hate here. I was with my friend, we were not a group of friends. The other players were rushing us, and they were asking: "are you guys new?" then the person who left did so because he was annoyed how slow we are. I was telling other players to wait so that my friend could sell his items between two paths. It was just a horrible experience for him.

Your original post made it sound like it was a whole group of friends rushing forward. If it was a group of randoms, then you'll need to specify you want a slow chill run. Dungeons are old content so default is to run them as fast as possible. If people don't respect your lfg then shame on them.

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, hatebreeder.8316 said:

I don't know why I am getting so much hate here. I was with my friend, we were not a group of friends. The other players were rushing us, and they were asking: "are you guys new?" then the person who left did so because he was annoyed how slow we are. I was telling other players to wait so that my friend could sell his items between two paths. It was just a horrible experience for him.

Make your own LFG clearly stating that it's for a new person. As @Shikaru.7618 just mentioned, it's on the people who join to respect those boundaries.

What you'll find is that most people who join will respect the slowness/watching of cutscenes/explaining/etc. The people who join your LFG without even reading are also probably new players, so those issues take care of themselves to an extent.

Given that you've already posted this thread without making all the pertinent details clear, I have to ask - did you guys post your own LFG? If so, did you have a "new player" description?

Edited December 29, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[Kathkere.3068]

I'm not exactly a new player. I started playing at the beginning of 2013 but in my first journey to max level I didn't run a single dungeon. Then I've had an on-and-off relationship with GW2 and over the years I've ran like 2-3 dungeons. I returned in november last year and I decided to level a new character and experience all the story dungeons that I had previously missed, and my experience has been... mixed.

First of all: joining a group that just says "story" is a recipe for disaster if you want chill gameplay and experience the story. People will rush and there's not much you can do about that. My first two dungeon groups were advertised as such and both were disappointing, so I decided to create my own groups with a more elaborate message, highlighting the fact that I was looking for people either new or chill. First time around was great, I got into a group where 4 of us had never done it before and one player that was at max level. But she played a healer and simply backed us up, letting us discover the place, and she was invested in the lore and had something to comment about everything. Remarkable success, I'd say!

The second time around... not so much. I created an elaborate message and two people soon joined. One of them didn't even say hi. The other one did say hi, shortly followed by "go?". I told them that I wanted to wait for a full group but they entered all the same. So after a while I told them I'd hop out as they weren't the players I was looking for, and that I probably wasn't the player they were looking for either. Only... when I quit the group I saw that my group was still listed with my recruitment message. It made me upset, to be honest. Those people were not new to the game and they were not chill in the slightest.

And this was largely my experience on the way to max level. I found two nice groups in total, even when I had elaborate messages. The last dungeon I ran someone else had a message that read like this: "Story Beginners Welcome". I joined that group and found a couple of anti-social people who knew the dungeon in and out and just rushed through it. So even when you are deliberately looking for relaxed people it can still be a struggle and I don't get it. Why do people insist on joining groups that are advertised towards chill people when all they want to do is "go go go" and rush through the content? /rant

Edited January 21, 2022 by Kathkere.3068

[Vilin.8056]

12 minutes ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

I'm not exactly a new player. I started playing at the beginning of 2013 but in my first journey to max level I didn't run a single dungeon. Then I've had an on-and-off relationship with GW2 and over the years I've ran like 2-3 dungeons. I returned in november last year and I decided to level a new character and experience all the story dungeons that I had previously missed, and my experience has been... mixed.

First of all: joining a group that just says "story" is a recipe for disaster if you want chill gameplay and experience the story. People will rush and there's not much you can do about that. My first two dungeon groups were advertised as such and both were disappointing, so I decided to create my own groups with a more elaborate message, highlighting the fact that I was looking for people either new or chill. First time around was great, I got into a group where 4 of us had never done it before and one player that was at max level. But she played a healer and simply backed us up, letting us discover the place, and she was invested in the lore and had something to comment about everything. Remarkable success, I'd say!

The second time around... not so much. I created an elaborate message and two people soon joined. One of them didn't even say hi. The other one did say hi, shortly followed by "go?". I told them that I wanted to wait for a full group but they entered all the same. So after a while I told them I'd hop out as they weren't the players I was looking for, and that I probably wasn't the player they were looking for either. Only... when I quit the group I saw that my group was still listed with my recruitment message. It made me upset, to be honest. Those people were not new to the game and they were not chill in the slightest.

And this was largely my experience on the way to max level. I found two nice groups in total, even when I had elaborate messages. The last dungeon I ran someone else had a message that read like this: "Story Beginners Welcome". I joined that group and found a couple of anti-social people who knew the dungeon in and out and just rushed through it. So even when you are deliberately looking for relaxed people it can still be a struggle and I don't get it. Why do people insist on joining groups that are advertised towards chill people when all they want to do is "go go go" and rush through the content? /rant

Here's the answer:

Because you're not chilling either.

You wanted to dominate the group to experienced players to slow down onto your pace, which is equally as difficult as to asking new players to speed up theirs.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Kathkere.3068]

8 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Here's the answer:

Because you're not chilling either.

You wanted to dominate the group to experienced players to slow down onto your pace, which is equally as difficult as to asking new players to speed up theirs.

What are you even on about. I can't comprehend how you came to that conclusion.

When I create groups I do so by explicitly stating the goal of the run. I advertise to new people, ideally level appropriate, but I do welcome anyone so long as they're chill. In that one run where we got a max level to join us, she certainly didn't have a problem to follow our pace in spite of being max level.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Kathkere.3068

[Vilin.8056]

1 hour ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

What are you even on about. I can't comprehend how you came to that conclusion.

When I create groups I do so by explicitly stating the goal of the run. I advertise to new people, ideally level appropriate, but I do welcome anyone so long as they're chill. In that one run where we got a max level to join us, she certainly didn't have a problem to follow our pace in spite of being max level.

That still don't change what you're doing.

You set up a rule of the game, and enforce it so others must follow, and rage if the rule's broken, that is domination.

[Kathkere.3068]

1 hour ago, Vilin.8056 said:

That still don't change what you're doing.

You set up a rule of the game, and enforce it so others must follow, and rage if the rule's broken, that is domination.

Let's pretend there are two groups listed for a dungeon. Group A is advertised as: "Story". Group B is advertised as: "First time running story mode so looking for chill people to experience it with!"

If you are a max level player who wants to run the dungeon as fast as possible then which group do you join? The answer is Group A. Now let's pretend that Group A doesn't exist. What do you do? Do you join group B? The answer should be a clear no. You make your own damned group and advertise it as "Story". You don't have to join the group that is explicitly looking for people to experience the story with unless you're also willing to take things slower in order to help them get a decent experience. It is not "domination" on the part of the recruiter, it is bloody common decency on the part of the potential recruit.

If you disagree then work me through your logic. What would you suggest a newcomer should do if they want to experience the dungeon? Invent a time machine and go back to 2012?

Edited January 21, 2022 by Kathkere.3068

[Vilin.8056]

I'm not saying you're wrong, everyone has their reasons for dominating instanced contents with rules. But again, you're not chilling, but instead, you're fighting to enforce your own rules while other players may be indeed chilling with their own methods (skipping do make dungeons much easier to breeze through)

 

You can browse through hundreds if not thousands of speed runners, high-end fractal players, and raid complaining people not reading LFG requirements, with even more casual players complaining that they were kicked for not following requirement rules. You're playing their method to enforce the lower end, with equal frustration of their own.

 

If you wish a chill experience, simply follow the flow, respect what people do, most dungeon groups do make afew tricks to make things faster, but none are anywhere close to a speed run experience.

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

The second time around... not so much. I created an elaborate message and two people soon joined. One of them didn't even say hi. The other one did say hi, shortly followed by "go?". I told them that I wanted to wait for a full group but they entered all the same. So after a while I told them I'd hop out as they weren't the players I was looking for, and that I probably wasn't the player they were looking for either. Only... when I quit the group I saw that my group was still listed with my recruitment message. It made me upset, to be honest. Those people were not new to the game and they were not chill in the slightest.

So one person "didn't say hi" and the other simply asked if you want to start the dungeon as 3 player party and that was the whole reason for you to leave? Looks like a rushed decision to me.

[Kathkere.3068]

27 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So one person "didn't say hi" and the other simply asked if you want to start the dungeon as 3 player party and that was the whole reason for you to leave? Looks like a rushed decision to me.

No. One person asked "go?" and when I told them I'd rather wait for a full group they started regardless. I didn't leave immediately. I actually tried to engage them in conversation but neither of them said a word back. That is why I left. It's not like I let them down -- they didn't need me, they were max level and I was level 45 or something. Why they decided to join my group I can't say.

 

5 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

 

If you wish a chill experience, simply follow the flow, respect what people do

Respect what people do, you say. So when I write an elaborate message for the ideal recruit and people kitten on that, I should respect them? If this is the mentality that permeate the game then I can understand why it's hard to find nice people to play with in dungeons. I think we have very different definitions of what "chill" means.

[Fuchslein.8639]

Just join a guild. I did my first dungeons with friends and i had no problems. Could watch all story parts, became introductions from the more experiened players, ect.

Nowadays i myself do this for newbees. Just ask and make clear what you want.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

I think we have very different definitions of what "chill" means.

"Chill" doesn't necessearily mean walking at a snail's pace taking your time killing any enemy. A run can be chill even if you ignore stuff that are pointless. Chill is not rushing through the whole dungeon, not skipping stuff when possible and so on.

Dungeons aren't Fractals, there aren't a bunch of groups separated by interest. Groups mix often, otherwise they wouldn't really fill.

Going for the story can be done at decent pace, because most of the story itself is in cutscenes.

21 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

If you are a max level player who wants to run the dungeon as fast as possible then which group do you join? The answer is Group A. Now let's pretend that Group A doesn't exist. What do you do? Do you join group B? The answer should be a clear no. You make your own damned group and advertise it as "Story".

If there is a group on LFG noone will make an extra group just to wait for that to fill, they join the one with people in it, because otherwise they'd be possibly wasting their own time.
For all the veterans joining groups of new players there are new players joining runs clearly advertised towards people who just want to get the Dungeon paths done for the day. 
I ran in parties with 1-2 new players regularly despite advertising for experienced players, yet I wasn't opening threads about "new players slowing veterans down".

You get the end rewards if you are in the instance, you don't have to fight anything, that's the only valuable thing in the Dungeons, loot from trash along the way is so little there is no point being sad about not getting it. 

It would also help the situation if new players would listen to veterans explaining stuff to them. It is extremely annoying when someone in the party explains how the Ghost Eater is dealt with to new players who then completely ignore what was said and complain about it taking too long or the boss not dying.

Veterans rush through the dungeon while new players don't listen to the veterans explaining stuff.

[Kathkere.3068]

On 1/22/2022 at 12:34 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

For all the veterans joining groups of new players there are new players joining runs clearly advertised towards people who just want to get the Dungeon paths done for the day. 
I ran in parties with 1-2 new players regularly despite advertising for experienced players, yet I wasn't opening threads about "new players slowing veterans down".

I'm not defending those players, although I do believe that there's more room for ambiguity in your case than there is in mine. When it comes to dungeons I have not seen anyone advertise towards experienced players (not saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it). The usual advertisements consists of simple esoteric phrases, such as "Story" for simple story mode or "P1/P2/P3" for the various paths. I've never seen someone advertise "P1 experienced players only". Also, when is a new player no longer new? Everyone will be new to this type of content, no one steps into it with pre-existing experience. And this is a universal problem for modern MMOs -- World of Warcraft, for instance, is notorious for its toxic playerbase when it comes to the treatment of new players and the non-existent tolerance for mistakes.

At least in GW2 this problem could be alleviated quite easily if people simply read the advertisements and respected what was requested. If you just want to get the dungeon done for the day then don't join a group that is asking for a relaxed/chill group. You may think that chill refers to simply running the dungeon without problems, and that could be considered chill from a certain point of view but for a new or inexperienced player these quick runs are naught but stressful, and it is not fun.

On 1/22/2022 at 12:34 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If there is a group on LFG noone will make an extra group just to wait for that to fill, they join the one with people in it, because otherwise they'd be possibly wasting their own time.

And this is just toxic behaviour. It's blatantly disrespectful. If you infringe on other peoples' enjoyment for the sake of your own convenience then you're selfish. Again, I don't mind that experienced players join my groups even when I advertise towards players similar to me, so long as the experienced player is respectful and consider the fact that it is the first time I run the dungeon. Such players exist, but it's harder to find them when so many people don't give a kitten about the recruitment message because they just want to get their dailies done (or w/e other reason they have to keep grinding dungeons).

Edited January 23, 2022 by Kathkere.3068

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

10 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

When it comes to dungeons I have not seen anyone advertise towards experienced players (not saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it). The usual advertisements consists of simple esoteric phrases, such as "Story" for simple story mode or "P1/P2/P3" for the various paths. I've never seen someone advertise "P1 experienced players only".

Yeah, seems like you haven't done dungeons a lot. 

10 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

 Also, when is a new player no longer new? Everyone will be new to this type of content, no one steps into it with pre-existing experience.

A new player is no longer new when they understand the basics of the game and their profession.

10 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

If you just want to get the dungeon done for the day then don't join a group that is asking for a relaxed/chill group. You may think that chill refers to simply running the dungeon without problems, and that could be considered chill from a certain point of view but for a new or inexperienced player these quick runs are naught but stressful, and it is not fun.

Find a group for dungeons that explicitly say they are chill. You go on about making new parties for dungeons, despite parties not even filling all the time. If all those veterans "rushing" through dungeons would not join your party you'd be sitting in LFG with 3-4 people waiting to fill. Do you want to do the content or do you want to wait? Decide. 

As I said, you get the same rewards as others even if you do nothing. Join in 10 seconds before the end, if you are in the instance you get the rewards. Stop acting like people knowing where to go rush through the dungeon and take all your loot.
And again, as mentioned before if those new players whose parties get filled by those who "rush" would bother to read what veterans tell them this discussion wouldn't exist.

We did a Guild run on AC, CM and TA with 3 people between level 50-60, completely new to those dungeons and they had no trouble keeping up with us, we explained each encounter to them, highlighted that we need to move as one group so we can avoid having to deal with trash mobs, shockingly noone lagged behind, everyone knew where to go and noone complained about rushing. That's the difference between people listening to others and people not bothering to listen, go in without any knowledge and then go to the forums to complain about the veterans knowing what to do.
If you consider going through the dungeon at a normal, chill pace stressful and unfun the problem is most likely not veterans.

10 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

And this is just toxic behaviour. It's blatantly disrespectful. If you infringe on other peoples' enjoyment for the sake of your own convenience then you're selfish. 

Veterans joining new players is toxic, but as it seems new players joining veterans and pulling them back is not. Wonderful.

10 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

Again, I don't mind that experienced players join my groups even when I advertise towards players similar to me, so long as the experienced player is respectful and consider the fact that it is the first time I run the dungeon.

You "don't mind" veterans joining you, but you do seem to have a problem with veterans joining your run to the point where seemingly all veterans rush through the content.

10 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

Such players exist, but it's harder to find them when so many people don't give a kitten about the recruitment message because they just want to get their dailies done (or w/e other reason they have to keep grinding dungeons).

Take a look at dungeon LFG and tell me how many parties you see and how fast your party fills if you advertise. This argument works in Fractals, but not in dungeons. While writing this response I checked dungeon LFG every ~20 seconds and saw a total of 6 parties across all 8 dungeons in ~10 minutes. 

[Kathkere.3068]

23 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Veterans joining new players is toxic, but as it seems new players joining veterans and pulling them back is not. Wonderful.

I never said that. I said that there's more room for ambiguity. Someone might have played the game for a month and be better at it than someone who has been playing for years. "New" players and "bad" players are often conflated, unfairly so. I also don't think a player should be condemned for being inexperienced, but I definitely agree that it is poor behaviour to not listen when experienced players give advice.

 

People have mixed interests. The vast majority, I'm sure, are just playing these dungeons to get their rewards. They don't play them for the experience -- the dungeon itself. When I returned to the game I wanted to experience the dungeons as I had never done them in the past. As such I wanted to play with people who weren't driven by rewards. I may not have done many dungeons in this game but I have played dungeons in other games and it's the same story wherever you go. I actively try to avoid these "normal" people by making advetisements that should dissuade experienced players, but it doesn't seem to work all that well in Guild Wars 2. Maybe because people can just join with the click of a button.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

I never said that. I said that there's more room for ambiguity. Someone might have played the game for a month and be better at it than someone who has been playing for years. "New" players and "bad" players are often conflated, unfairly so. I also don't think a player should be condemned for being inexperienced, but I definitely agree that it is poor behaviour to not listen when experienced players give advice.

I will make the question again. Do you want to do dungeons, or do you want to sit in LFG waiting for your group to fill?
You acknowledge how New and Bad players are often confused, but you put Veterans into the same group as those people who rush.

3 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

People have mixed interests. The vast majority, I'm sure, are just playing these dungeons to get their rewards. They don't play them for the experience -- the dungeon itself. When I returned to the game I wanted to experience the dungeons as I had never done them in the past. As such I wanted to play with people who weren't driven by rewards. I may not have done many dungeons in this game but I have played dungeons in other games and it's the same story wherever you go. I actively try to avoid these "normal" people by making advetisements that should dissuade experienced players, but it doesn't seem to work all that well in Guild Wars 2. Maybe because people can just join with the click of a button.

If you want to play with people who don't want to do it for reasons other than rewards join a Guild and do it with them. When the single group in LFG might not even fill for over 10 minutes don't expect to put up an LFG for your sightseeing tour and fill the group immediately, this is not 2012/13.

You actively seem to avoid the part where I mentioned multiple times how dungeons are old and other than Monk/Nightmare Runes and the Gifts for Legendaries - with all these items being sold for Tokens - there isn't much reason to do them.  How do you get Tokens? By finishing the dungeon, random trash doesn't give anything, the faster you do it the faster you can go and do something else.

3 hours ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

Maybe because people can just join with the click of a button.

If you had to be accepted into a dungeon group then you'd probably be complaining about not having the chance to join groups.

[Kathkere.3068]

6 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I will make the question again. Do you want to do dungeons, or do you want to sit in LFG waiting for your group to fill?

I think I've answered this already. I don't mind waiting. Saying that it is impossible to find a group of newcomers / relaxed players is hyperbolic and something that I've already proven false in my first post in this thread. I have had two good dungeon runs with chill teams consisting of primarily new players. The answer to your question whether I want a group fast or if I want to wait to play with the people I'm advertising for and should be obvious.

6 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You acknowledge how New and Bad players are often confused, but you put Veterans into the same group as those people who rush.

No I don't. You're drawing very strange conclusions. I'll refer back to the anecdote I've brought up several times already -- in my first successful group we were 4 new players and one veteran, and she did not rush. She allowed us to take charge and was very communicative without spoiling every little thing on the way. So no, I do not group veterans with people who rush.

6 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If you want to play with people who don't want to do it for reasons other than rewards join a Guild and do it with them.

Why? Why can't people just read the bloody advertisement? You yourself have expressed frustration over the fact that people don't read what experienced players tells them. Well, I have that exact same frustration. If only people could bother to read, eh?

6 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You actively seem to avoid the part where I mentioned multiple times how dungeons are old and other than Monk/Nightmare Runes and the Gifts for Legendaries - with all these items being sold for Tokens - there isn't much reason to do them. 

I have not been avoiding that part. One reason to run the dungeons is for the story content they contain. That's not something a veteran is going to care much about because the story is also ancient, but it's new to new people. You can experience the story by running with "rush groups", but it is way more fun to run with others who are also new. I'm repeating a point I made earlier, but finding those people is made a lot more difficult when people don't respect the advertisement message.

6 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If you had to be accepted into a dungeon group then you'd probably be complaining about not having the chance to join groups.

Nice chest-thumping. You do realize I'm not the original poster, right? I shared my experience, and after having read the responses I generated I am no longer surprised why I had such a difficult time finding decent groups. Not that it really matters -- my goal was to run each dungeon once for the story and I have done so now. I've merely continued the debate for the sake of principle. I would not have thought it so hard to convince others that disrespecting what a group is requesting is a bad thing.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Kathkere.3068