Weaver = Prenerf Warrior Healing Signet

[GhandiBot.6257]

Idk how weaver is not further nerfed. Decent dmg, high cc, high sustain, many invuln frames, encourages spamming for healing, high barrier uptime. Defeck. 

[Kuma.1503]

Hey, I'm going to burn you now. Mind sitting still and not stunbreaking my one reliable set-up that doesn't require 4 attunement swaps?

"Yeah bro no prob-- AAA WTF FIRE HOT"

-Guy who lost to fire weaver probably

Edited December 28, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Crab Fear.1624]

53 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Hey, I'm going to burn you now. Mind sitting still and not stunbreaking my one reliable set-up that doesn't require 4 attunement swaps?

"Yeah bro no prob-- AAA WTF FIRE HOT"

-Guy who lost to fire weaver probably

I'm not asking for a nerf right now, but I've played a very condi shrugging class that is extremely tanky, and the fight went on for about 2 minutes or more, and the weaver was barely hit and constantly burning or bleeding me.

 

They are very gifted at damage avoidance and denying an area for capture with ambient aoe

[FarmBotXD.1430]

that moment when you 1v1 a weaver, die.
look at your stats. you did 135k damage, weaver is at full hp and has 50% max hp barrier.
you healed for 75k.
should have doubled my sustain I guess.
But in all seriousness I have no idea how weaver works other then me press button me get barrier and heal brzzt

[Grimjack.8130]

Elementalist surely does heal too much, however that is in its nature. Every class has something they do that no other class can touch. For Thief, mobility. For Warrior its their 1v1 prowess(warrior mains ik what ur about to say and dont pls). Each class has something like that, and for Elementalist its their Healing. They eat damage, they eat more damage than other classes when they do(11k hp + light armor) and they heal it back up.
This is a good exercise in balancing the game, if you were to get your wish and remove the increased HPS that they tend to be balanced around, what would be the point to play it, what would be the new thing its good at? Does it already have something its good at that can replace it, or would you have to add one? 
 

I for one as an Ele main, anything that makes Ele more akin to other classes that are good nowadays is more than welcome to me, and I view it as a huge buff!

[Dantheman.3589]

What do yah do ?

 

people at least a few complained about weaver day 1, they nerfed core traits by a lot, then leaving damage multipliers etc there which made weaver necessary for eles. Then reworked fire leaving elite specs in the game. Now a big patch that left damage multipliers and there friends, hello sustain, there.

 

weaver is an overall toxic mess, consistency and power all wrapped in one. I could make a lot of suggestions to shift the balance, but with ele mains in view - nerf weaver and leave some core things in play , maybe even buff tempest.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

24 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

Elementalist surely does heal too much, however that is in its nature. Every class has something they do that no other class can touch. For Thief, mobility. For Warrior its their 1v1 prowess(warrior mains ik what ur about to say and dont pls). Each class has something like that, and for Elementalist its their Healing. They eat damage, they eat more damage than other classes when they do(11k hp + light armor) and they heal it back up.
This is a good exercise in balancing the game, if you were to get your wish and remove the increased HPS that they tend to be balanced around, what would be the point to play it, what would be the new thing its good at? Does it already have something its good at that can replace it, or would you have to add one? 
 

I for one as an Ele main, anything that makes Ele more akin to other classes that are good nowadays is more than welcome to me, and I view it as a huge buff!

weaver kind of destroys this " balance " doesnt it?
11k + light armor? well, weaver has a HP trait that it uses, it uses sage amulet, and according to meta-battle it also uses orr runes ( weird but whatever )
that puts weaver at 22k HP.
and while that would be fine and dandy it also vomits barriers, that put them above their max hp ( duh its barrier )
so weaver with full barrier can be rocking 33k HP.
With high sustain the logical way off countering would be a burst ( cant heal while dead ) exept 22-33k HP makes weaver harder to burst then almost any other class, and its not even mentioning the fact it is very good at avoiding damage to begin with.
So here we are with a class with the best sustain out there, that cant be bursted because of insane HP and barriers that can deal with 1v1 or 1vX due to high evades/invuln/blocks.
And the class is so impotent in many things that it HAS to be this way to be even remotely usable.

EDIT
Weaver is a side-node build that I found to hate the most, as it doesnt have any counterplay.
you cant deny its healing, or barrier, its damage is aoe vomit that is pulsating, cant kill it in 1vX due to insane barrier and the only thing that can kill them is massive incompetence.
And worst of all its just boring to fight, no matter what class or build I play I always hated fighting weaver above all else.
Winning doesnt bring satisfaction and losing just makes me mad.

Edited December 29, 2021 by FarmBotXD.1430

[Grimjack.8130]

17 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

weaver kind of destroys this " balance " doesnt it?
11k + light armor? well, weaver has a HP trait that it uses, it uses sage amulet, and according to meta-battle it also uses orr runes ( weird but whatever )
that puts weaver at 22k HP.
and while that would be fine and dandy it also vomits barriers, that put them above their max hp ( duh its barrier )
so weaver with full barrier can be rocking 33k HP.
With high sustain the logical way off countering would be a burst ( cant heal while dead ) exept 22-33k HP makes weaver harder to burst then almost any other class, and its not even mentioning the fact it is very good at avoiding damage to begin with.
So here we are with a class with the best sustain out there, that cant be bursted because of insane HP and barriers that can deal with 1v1 or 1vX due to high evades/invuln/blocks.
And the class is so impotent in many things that it HAS to be this way to be even remotely usable.

A class that has 11k HP has to invest traits and stats to not have 11k hp. This investment is not free, a Weaver can have 22k hp, but at a cost of Ferocity, Power, or in the case of Amulets in PvP, at the cost of more effiecent stat combos, for example you must have Power on your build, regardless of being a Power build if you want Vitality as you're running Wizards or Sages that have that Power stat that you might not want. Or once again Weaver has 2 traits in the traitline that add extra Vitality, those are 2 traits that you must choose to get Vitality and HP, or they're traits that you're forced to take and could easily be considered worse than it doing something else in the case of a Minor trait buffing HP. I think we can all agree that a trait like Elemental Attunement is considerably better than Elemental Polyphony. 
 

Weaver doesn't really have that much Barrier I'd like to think, Lava Skin really isn't that much and Stone Resonance is seeing less and less play as the days go by, I'd wager that people don't even know Elemental Refreshment is such a low amount.
Its probably Bolstered Elements being procced at the same time as Lava Skin being cast, which really comes more as a downside than a good thing, letting both big barriers get procced at the same time rather than them being spaced out and being more resistant to burst because of it. 
I personally would enjoy it if Stone Resonance and Bolstered Elements got removed from the game, as I do think they promote unhealthy gameplay, although gameplay that has more than enough counterplay against a player who knows what theyre doing.

And yeah, you're right about Ele "having to be this way" probably being a bad thing. Theres a reason why it hasn't been really even remotely viable compared to how dominant it was back in Core, the games different, different things are valued highly or lowly now, Elementalist being this way and paying the price it does makes it unplayable at the high level almost always, and that sucks. Trust me I know that.

 

Edit: Elementalists are WORSE off with this, this is not a thing that makes them top tier picks, this is a thing that makes them unplayable at high end play, and unskillful to main. I want this removed just as much as anyone else, it would only be a good thing. But in order to get there, people have to talk in good faith and be reasonable about what can or can't happen, whats healthy, and whats fair. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Grimjack.8130

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I won't comment much but just say that Fire Weaver isn't strong, just tanky. I fight them all the time on my Tempest, and its often at a standstill unless they make a mistake.

 

You have to approach the barrier generation just like you do for other mechanics: It has a decay time, so stop wasting all your DPS when they have 50% barrier. Barrier is health but its not permanent health, and you need to understand that. Wait it out or kite it like you would Shroud.

 

In fact I'd say in many ways fighting Fire Weaver is similar to fighting Necro. Low Stability, low cleanses, etc.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Hello all.  I main weaver for WvW.  It's similar to the one in sPVP, but stronger.  There's a big weakness that a lot of people don't know about, and that is the cooldowns.  Barrier is self-ablative, and twist of fate is on a massive 70 seconds per charge.  With the exception of condi cleanse, everything that the weaver has is on a longer cooldown that any other profession.  Even with all of the dual skills, the weaver is effectively on a 40 second time limit of intense combat before they start to fall apart.

This is why the modern sPVP weaver equips scepter/focus with fire/arcane or fire/air: everything else has been nerfed below viability.  Look at the healing traits (Elemental Refreshment, Stone Resonance, Invigorating Strikes, Arcane Restoration) and you can see they've been cut by anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/2 of their original power.  The only recourse they have now is to self-buff with vigor and dodge a whole lot.  

[Morwath.9817]

5 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I'm not asking for a nerf right now, but I've played a very condi shrugging class that is extremely tanky, and the fight went on for about 2 minutes or more, and the weaver was barely hit and constantly burning or bleeding me.

 

They are very gifted at damage avoidance and denying an area for capture with ambient aoe

 

Kite when Primordial Stance is up, it has relatively small radius. Then dodge Pyro Vortex and his condi damage becomes really low.

[Kuma.1503]

11k base HP

Melee

Lowest armor value in the game

Traits you'd expect to see in a glass canon. But people whined back when ele did damage, so their damage has been toned down. Necro fills the dps role much better with twice the hp. 

How do you make a squishy, melee, low mobility class work if it can't play like a traditional glass canon?

You give it sustain. Barrier to help it avoid one shots, and let it play as a sturdy melee bruiser instead. That's what weaver is. 

If you don't like it, advocate for Anet to take Ele down the glass canon route instead.

This would require a rework of weaver because trying to force what is obviously a slow melee bruiser into a glass canon role is going to result in complications. 

Pressure on sword will need to go up. 

Sustain and barrier will need to go down. 

Mobility will need to be increased so that the weaver can get in and deal their damage before they explode

Evades can be kept because glass canons typically stay alive by utilizing some form of active defense.

 

Traits will need to change to better facilitate a more aggressive playstyle. 

 

Unfortunately, even if this does happen, It won't make the complainers happy. 

 

People will whine when a squishy weaver blows them up in a few seconds while evading their attacks and zipping away into the sunset. For the people currently incapable of playing around their few pedictable setups, this version of weaver would just farm them harder. 

I can already see the nerf threads. 

 "You can't have high damage, mobility AND high evade uptime at the same time with no downside. Pick one."

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Coffee And Cream.6198]

May as well delete elementalist class from all games modes at this point......

 

In all seriousness there are other classes that slightly out perform weaver on the side nodes.  Nade holo is an example.  There are other classes that bring more to team fights such as Shiro Revenants.

 

Fire weavers on the side nodes takes more time than other side noding classes at killing things.  Ok if ANET decides to nerf weaver sustain and buff damage output, guess what you will be seeing more of.... Fresh air roamers.

[Hotride.2187]

I'm only bothered by ele in wvw, where it can take cele stats. Its not that its OP there either (just don't stand on burn aoe, don't attack into fire shield), but it just doesn't die. Its a lot like core necro on trailblazer, but even worse.

In spvp you have to give ground to it, so it can decap the node, but fully taking the node from you seems far fetched. You should be able to contest the node, during their invuln frames and when switch from fire to something else. You should also be able to likewise decap the node if the weaver is on it. 1v1 on a contested node is not ideal but its fine.

From my experience condi weaver is a lot like condi mesmer, it can force you off the node enough to decap it but thats about it. Its not like seeing someone switch to core guard and you already go "not this kitten again".

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

11k base HP

Melee

Lowest armor value in the game

Traits you'd expect to see in a glass canon. But people whined back when ele did damage, so their damage has been toned down. Necro fills the dps role much better with twice the hp. 

How do you make a squishy, melee, low mobility class work if it can't play like a traditional glass canon?

You give it sustain. Barrier to help it avoid one shots, and let it play as a sturdy melee bruiser instead. That's what weaver is. 

If you don't like it, advocate for Anet to take Ele down the glass canon route instead.

This would require a rework of weaver because trying to force what is obviously a slow melee bruiser into a glass canon role is going to result in complications. 

Pressure on sword will need to go up. 

Sustain and barrier will need to go down. 

Mobility will need to be increased so that the weaver can get in and deal their damage before they explode

Evades can be kept because glass canons typically stay alive by utilizing some form of active defense.

 

Traits will need to change to better facilitate a more aggressive playstyle. 

 

Unfortunately, even if this does happen, It won't make the complainers happy. 

 

People will whine when a squishy weaver blows them up in a few seconds while evading their attacks and zipping away into the sunset. For the people currently incapable of playing around their few pedictable setups, this version of weaver would just farm them harder. 

I can already see the nerf threads. 

 "You can't have high damage, mobility AND high evade uptime at the same time with no downside. Pick one."

 

Thief story arc for ele 2022 lets GO

[FarmBotXD.1430]

10 hours ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

A class that has 11k HP has to invest traits and stats to not have 11k hp. This investment is not free, a Weaver can have 22k hp, but at a cost of Ferocity, Power, or in the case of Amulets in PvP, at the cost of more effiecent stat combos, for example you must have Power on your build, regardless of being a Power build if you want Vitality as you're running Wizards or Sages that have that Power stat that you might not want. Or once again Weaver has 2 traits in the traitline that add extra Vitality, those are 2 traits that you must choose to get Vitality and HP, or they're traits that you're forced to take and could easily be considered worse than it doing something else in the case of a Minor trait buffing HP. I think we can all agree that a trait like Elemental Attunement is considerably better than Elemental Polyphony. 
 

Weaver doesn't really have that much Barrier I'd like to think, Lava Skin really isn't that much and Stone Resonance is seeing less and less play as the days go by, I'd wager that people don't even know Elemental Refreshment is such a low amount.
Its probably Bolstered Elements being procced at the same time as Lava Skin being cast, which really comes more as a downside than a good thing, letting both big barriers get procced at the same time rather than them being spaced out and being more resistant to burst because of it. 
I personally would enjoy it if Stone Resonance and Bolstered Elements got removed from the game, as I do think they promote unhealthy gameplay, although gameplay that has more than enough counterplay against a player who knows what theyre doing.

And yeah, you're right about Ele "having to be this way" probably being a bad thing. Theres a reason why it hasn't been really even remotely viable compared to how dominant it was back in Core, the games different, different things are valued highly or lowly now, Elementalist being this way and paying the price it does makes it unplayable at the high level almost always, and that sucks. Trust me I know that.

 

Edit: Elementalists are WORSE off with this, this is not a thing that makes them top tier picks, this is a thing that makes them unplayable at high end play, and unskillful to main. I want this removed just as much as anyone else, it would only be a good thing. But in order to get there, people have to talk in good faith and be reasonable about what can or can't happen, whats healthy, and whats fair. 

What pisses me about weaver is that no matter how much time I spend fighting them I dont get better at it, and reading through how weaver actually works brings nothing as every heal and barrier they have can not be denied in any way shape or form.
And saying we can wait out the barrier is a joke as it stays for 5 seconds, which is straight up unreasonable.
Im not saying weaver is OP or should be nerfed but it should definitely be changed, but I am also not the right person to suggest anything as I dont know how it works, dont play it myself and are biased heavily against it so all I am going to do is be here vent and complain about it 😄

[Khalisto.5780]

be a reaper or a good spellbreaker, that's the 2 only classes i feel not facing as weaver, all the other ones if i lost the guy is prolly a better machanically skilled player and deserved to win.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The only thing fireweaver is really good at is sitting on a node and surviving. Their damage is easy to avoid, they have no mobility, and barely offer anything in teamfights. Take away their sustain and there is nothing left of that class.

[Pimsley.3681]

Chill

Edited December 29, 2021 by Pimsley.3681
Chillax

[Widmo.3186]

Seeing yet another „nerf ele” thread is what reminds me why no1 takes gw2 pvp serious anymore, neither twitch, nor ESL or even players themself.  Seriously, you dont have any other things to call OP so you came back to poor ele or what? 

[Zekent.3652]

Yeah fire weaver is strong, but you're exaggerating lol.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

20 hours ago, GhandiBot.6257 said:

Idk how weaver is not further nerfed. Decent dmg, high cc, high sustain, many invuln frames, encourages spamming for healing, high barrier uptime. Defeck. 

Ye, but all of that stuff requires you to use skills, if you'll get cced few times or/and chilled it's pretty dead.
Warrior with Healing Signet at it's peak was healing like crazy and with natural high hp and armor it could even outheal someones damage by just standing still, then let's add evades, blocks, invulns and traits on top of that passive signet you couldn't put any dent in without constant poison application.
Beside the fact that Weaver in itself is quite broken for e-spec, comparing an active gameplay to passive semi-afk walking god on earth is quite kekw.

[Kuma.1503]

4 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

What pisses me about weaver is that no matter how much time I spend fighting them I dont get better at it, and reading through how weaver actually works brings nothing as every heal and barrier they have can not be denied in any way shape or form.
And saying we can wait out the barrier is a joke as it stays for 5 seconds, which is straight up unreasonable.
Im not saying weaver is OP or should be nerfed but it should definitely be changed, but I am also not the right person to suggest anything as I dont know how it works, dont play it myself and are biased heavily against it so all I am going to do is be here vent and complain about it 😄

Some general tips for fighting it based on attunement:

 Fire

 Burst damage incoming. They gain might when they attack in fire, and primordial stance will pulse burns. They can double attune fire for massive burst that will kill you 100-0 if you do not cleanse it. Kite them out during this phase. 

Abilities to look out for:

Flame Uprising -  A leap that does decent power and burn damage. 

Pyro Vortex - Rapidly pulses burns in a small area around targets struck. This does a lot of damage if you stand in it, but very little if you move out of it. They will try to set this up with gale. 

Cauterizing Strike - They will double attune fire with promordial stance up, and try to land this on you. It does more damage to burning foes and also inflicts burning. If you notice a weaver going fire/fire they're going in for the kill. 

Lava Skin - Not terribly threatening on it's own, but does a lot of damage in conjunction with primordial stance. 

Flame Expulsion - When they leave fire they will expel flames around themselves that deal roughly the same amount of damage as flame uprising. Then they will lose 15 stacks of  might. 

All of these skills have stubby range and/or slow wind up, so you can avoid a lot of damage by kiting them during this time. Don't try to trade. Weaver has a lot of pressure during this time. 

 

Earth 

A more defensive attunement. Attuning to earth gives them immediate access to an evade and blast finisher. If they went here from fire attunement, they can pressure you with lava skin and flame expulsion. Just stay away from them. They have no mobility in this attument so you can just wait it out, then they're out of pressure for a while. 

If you see earth attunement, the big thing to watch out is if they go Air attunement afterwards.  

Gale Strike (Earth/Air) is the skill to avoid. It has a short range 3/4 cast time float that they will try to bait out your stunbreaks with. It has stubby range so you can actually avoid this with WASD movement.

If you do get hit, it has a long aftercast so they won't be able to land much off of it. At most you might eat a flame uprising which won't kill you outright. If they try to pyro vortex you off of this skill, just dodge the instant you become un-stunned to avoid eating a ton of burn damage. 

If you only have one stunbreak, stay calm and save it for gale. If forced to burn it because you're low or they have a partner to burst you. Disengage the fight.  They can go Air --> Fire and immediately threaten lethal damage with Gale into Pyro Vortex. 

 

Air

If the ele is currently in air attunement, there isn't a lot to immediately worry about unless they're porting on top of you with a flame expulsion about to go off. If they do this, just dodge then go aggro on them. They most likely just burned their cooldowns in fire attunement, and then they put themselves on top of you with all of their pressure gone. If you pressure them here, you should be able to force them into water, which will give you even more time to bully them. 

See water section below. 

 

Water

Kill them. Death to the ele. Weavers only go into water for defense. Either they need the immediate evade frame, or they're trying to resustain. If it's the latter you can expect them to go water -> Earth meaning you will have as many as 4 attument swaps before the weaver is pressuring you with burning again.

For example, if they go water you might see something like this

Water -> Riptide for evade and heal -> Earth -> double blast water field for sustain -> Air -> Look to bait stunbreak with Gale Strike -> Fire -> They're pressuring you again. 

Personally, and this may just be me. I generally pop Weave self just before I attune to water so that I can speed this process up. This also gives me a tailored Victory immediately as I make it back into fire attunement, so I can threaten 3 different CC's back to back. This is telegraphed though, and I won't be threatening any meaningful damage until I'm in fire attunement again. 

This is your red flag to go aggressive on them and look to trade blows. 

Last little tip is that Chill wrecks ele because it makes the process of getting between attunements take 66% longer. It also makes them move at a snails pace which make sit even harder to land their damage. 

Any ele mains like Grimmjack feel free to correct me on this if I gave any misinformation. This is simply my understanding of the matchup as someone who plays a fair bit of fire weaver. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Swagg.9236]

Weaver sort of exemplifies GW2's crippling issues in system simplicity:  it's not really a deep class with a bunch of unique interactions, but rather just a longer, muscle-memory rotation; and by virtue of simply having more buttons to mash, it can slowly outpace a lot of other builds with sheer cooldown pressure.  With a mild amount of commitment, anybody could probably play Weaver with a steering wheel controller and find moderate success because it kind of does the same thing every time no matter what sort of match-up it finds.  The fact that it finds consistent success mostly lies in how its burst is several layers of passive, PBAoE ticks, leaving the Weaver free to just chain evades together and not actively attack.  It's not really much different how Guardian, Revenant, or signet Mesmer work (aside from the fact that it might passively heal more over time).

There are certainly counters, but they all generally force players to either take certain skills or use very niche (and often passive) techniques rather than allowing anybody to just be creative about handling the dude spinning around on point while exploding.  It often comes to just letting the dude have his free space or face-tanking everything with what is effectively a copy of the Weaver build.  Pretty boring.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[ollbirtan.2915]

4 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

What pisses me about weaver is that no matter how much time I spend fighting them I dont get better at it, and reading through how weaver actually works brings nothing as every heal and barrier they have can not be denied in any way shape or form.
And saying we can wait out the barrier is a joke as it stays for 5 seconds, which is straight up unreasonable.
Im not saying weaver is OP or should be nerfed but it should definitely be changed, but I am also not the right person to suggest anything as I dont know how it works, dont play it myself and are biased heavily against it so all I am going to do is be here vent and complain about it 😄

Yeah, then please don't passively contribute to the 'hurrrr durrrr nerf weaver OP' nonsense then