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43 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Without scourges you would either not run power classes or use mallyx's banish enchantment on renegade for boon rip which is a DPS loss and has no easy condition clearing. Also barrier works around the 70% heal reduction of agony.

Look at instabilities:
* Afflicted = condition  clear on <4s as part of rotation makes scourge a strong pick regardless of healing power
* No Pain No Gain = free DPS
* Vengeance = free DPS
* Social Awkwardness = slightly ranged DPS is better
* Flux Bomb = ranged DPS is better if you need to move off group
* Last Laugh = ranged DPS is better if many adds are dying
* Toxic Sickness = ranged DPS is better if you need to face away
* Toxic Trail  = condition clear on <4s cooldown as part of rotation makes scourge a strong pick regardless of healing power
* We Bleed fire = conditiion clear and barrier mitigates most of this

That's not even including situations where immob is converted into resistance such as on Aetherblade or Cliffside, allowing you to use multiple consoles at once.

 

npng isnt as important as you say it is because everyone wants to run condi atm (except speedrunners). most scgs i see dont press f2 to condi clear or f3 for barrier, they press it to dps and those effects are just a nice bonus. its honestly not any different to coincidentally blasting guard symbols or using ele earth dagger 2 on we bleed fire, and these arent really important to consider anyways unless running without a healer

at the end of the day its just ez to dps with scg. its ez to dps with cfb. the amount of times ive seen pugs use scg/fb utility properly as a dps fails to exceed one hand. and all of this significantly underplays what other builds and classes can bring

hence why scg is a little overrated atm. everything thats meta is slightly overrated and everything that isnt is underrated. i dont see why people need to try to find additional reasons why something like scg is great when people mainly use it for a select number of things (in this case dps and epi)

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Yes, before HoT we didn't use healers either, does that mean, that post HoT druid carried us?   Considering  fractal speedrun guild recommends stability for 99CM, I'd say you have nothing

Eh? Stability is for carry? What? It's one of the main boons for CMs to avoid unnecessary knockbacks on pretty much all 99CM bosses and pulls on Ensolyss.    it really doesn't, when skill

You guys are missing the part where people on the forums who made complaints exactly like this asked to nerf other classes. Which lead us to here. There was a time where mesmers where the only ones wi

1 hour ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

npng isnt as important as you say it is because everyone wants to run condi atm (except speedrunners). most scgs i see dont press f2 to condi clear or f3 for barrier, they press it to dps and those effects are just a nice bonus. its honestly not any different to coincidentally blasting guard symbols or using ele earth dagger 2 on we bleed fire, and these arent really important to consider anyways unless running without a healer

at the end of the day its just ez to dps with scg. its ez to dps with cfb. the amount of times ive seen pugs use scg/fb utility properly as a dps fails to exceed one hand. and all of this significantly underplays what other builds and classes can bring

hence why scg is a little overrated atm. everything thats meta is slightly overrated and everything that isnt is underrated. i dont see why people need to try to find additional reasons why something like scg is great when people mainly use it for a select number of things (in this case dps and epi)

If your counterpoint is "people are bad" , that's not how balance works. The condi cleanse is part of the rotation and so is the boon rip.

This is unlike something that is both boon reliant and also needs to break rotation to CC/boon rip.

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26 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If your counterpoint is "people are bad" , that's not how balance works. The condi cleanse is part of the rotation and so is the boon rip.

This is unlike something that is both boon reliant and also needs to break rotation to CC/boon rip.

and because its part of the rotation, there are many cases where players use scepter3 right before npng procs and so those boons stay for another 9s

scg and cfb certainly win in terms of “whoops i supported without intending to” but i highly doubt thats why they are heavily favored atm, especially when their “utility” is made mostly redundant due to pug meta including a healer and favoring condi which makes boonstrip rather optional

like the exposed changes, this topic is equally rife with misconception and misplaced arguments. do you really think that players are playing scg mainly for its “utility” (outside of epi ofc)?

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8 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

and because its part of the rotation, there are many cases where players use scepter3 right before npng procs and so those boons stay for another 9s

scg and cfb certainly win in terms of “whoops i supported without intending to” but i highly doubt thats why they are heavily favored atm, especially when their “utility” is made mostly redundant due to pug meta including a healer and favoring condi which makes boonstrip rather optional

like the exposed changes, this topic is equally rife with misconception and misplaced arguments. do you really think that players are playing scg mainly for its “utility” (outside of epi ofc)?

People are playing scourge because it's easy , sustain heavy, and there is high DPS uptime and ability to skip sorrows / anomaly.

Let's not pretend that if scourge is nerfed into the ground that people won't just drop sanctuary/darkrazor on sorrows or have alac ren kill anomaly for CMs.

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6 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

Don't get me wrong though i'm not really arguing, but I know how Fractal CMs works so i'm just clarifying.

 

You actually only need 2 epis to ignore the sorrows mechanic., or even only 1 good scourge if group DPS is high enough for a single epi and can put shades on each sorrow.

 

Also cfb dps is high on 99 and 98 because two things: exposed on breakbars (every cm boss has same amount of breakbars than both Ai fights btw), and because cfb is one of the few condi classes that can pull burst condi dmg instead of ramp up condi damage like every other condi class.

I dont thing you do. Scourges pre patch did a lot of dps because of Dhuumfire bug, that would trigger off any scourge without CD - more scourges, more dps. It was fixed. Breakbars on AI are WAY bigger than anything on 99 and 98. I doubt you know how game or fractals work.

 

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Without scourges you would either not run power classes or use mallyx's banish enchantment on renegade for boon rip which is a DPS loss and has no easy condition clearing. Also barrier works around the 70% heal reduction of agony.

Look at instabilities:
* Afflicted = condition  clear on <4s as part of rotation makes scourge a strong pick regardless of healing power
* No Pain No Gain = free DPS
* Vengeance = free DPS
* Social Awkwardness = slightly ranged DPS is better
* Flux Bomb = ranged DPS is better if you need to move off group
* Last Laugh = ranged DPS is better if many adds are dying
* Toxic Sickness = ranged DPS is better if you need to face away
* Toxic Trail  = condition clear on <4s cooldown as part of rotation makes scourge a strong pick regardless of healing power
* We Bleed fire = conditiion clear and barrier mitigates most of this

That's not even including situations where immob is converted into resistance such as on Aetherblade or Cliffside, allowing you to use multiple consoles at once.

Your point is invalid, power DPS is still faster in everything but 100 and 99CM last boss. Condi cleanse can be provided by qfb, or hfb (depending if you run organised party or pug meta)

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46 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

I dont thing you do. Scourges pre patch did a lot of dps because of Dhuumfire bug, that would trigger off any scourge without CD - more scourges, more dps. It was fixed. Breakbars on AI are WAY bigger than anything on 99 and 98. I doubt you know how game or fractals work.

 

Your point is invalid, power DPS is still faster in everything but 100 and 99CM last boss. Condi cleanse can be provided by qfb, or hfb (depending if you run organised party or pug meta)

Power DPS is faster with organized groups that rip boons and provide alac/quickness/fury that's the point. It's mathematically unlikely for a bunch of random power players to outperform a condi comp in the current meta if you have NPNG since protection negates the breakbar bonus, whether it is scourge , condi soulbeast , deadeye, or ren or firebrand is irrelevant. If you manage 20-30K cDPS at 5s into a breakbar that is 40-50K cDPS in an exposed breakbar.

The latest records with power comps are on boon overload or other instabilities. Even in those logs the peak DPS for power is 90-100K which is inline with a raid log that has ~60-70K peaks before fractal potions.

 

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IMO I think the community is largely at fault for LFG being filled with 3 classes. I've come across parties that will just straight up kick a druid or ele healer before even saying anything because they refuse to not have a healbrand. I've run across parties that require a condi rr or alacren. These things can be nice in some instances, sure, but they're not at all necessary if you have any clue what you're doing. Mechs aren't designed to be tackled with aegis and can be dodged, or ele/druid can heal you outright better than a healbrand can as their raw heals just beat hb. For fracs like Siren's Reef as well, you'll find people insisting that a hb join the party, but in a lot of groups they struggle to heal through the add damage while you're on the ship and a druid or heal ele is great to pump up a party. Scrapper has the ability to heal well and provide quickness while it does (similar to hb) and it can stealth and superspeed, which are really nice for certain circumstances, but I've also seen so many people refuse a heal scrapper or quick scrap in their party because they've been trained to follow the meta. The only reason there isn't diversity is because half of the people enforcing the meta don't actually understand it and some of these classes, when played at a high enough level, pump out a few percentage points of extra damage or make up for lazy players or not knowing mechanics (aegis/stab)- but let's be honest with ourselves, your average PUG isn't playing at high enough level for it to actually matter. There are benefits and downsides to most specs, but NA LFG needs to realize this for the problem to be fixed. It's not a simple issue of balance.

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1 hour ago, Justacravat.8320 said:

IMO I think the community is largely at fault for LFG being filled with 3 classes. I've come across parties that will just straight up kick a druid or ele healer before even saying anything because they refuse to not have a healbrand. I've run across parties that require a condi rr or alacren. These things can be nice in some instances, sure, but they're not at all necessary if you have any clue what you're doing. Mechs aren't designed to be tackled with aegis and can be dodged, or ele/druid can heal you outright better than a healbrand can as their raw heals just beat hb. For fracs like Siren's Reef as well, you'll find people insisting that a hb join the party, but in a lot of groups they struggle to heal through the add damage while you're on the ship and a druid or heal ele is great to pump up a party. Scrapper has the ability to heal well and provide quickness while it does (similar to hb) and it can stealth and superspeed, which are really nice for certain circumstances, but I've also seen so many people refuse a heal scrapper or quick scrap in their party because they've been trained to follow the meta. The only reason there isn't diversity is because half of the people enforcing the meta don't actually understand it and some of these classes, when played at a high enough level, pump out a few percentage points of extra damage or make up for lazy players or not knowing mechanics (aegis/stab)- but let's be honest with ourselves, your average PUG isn't playing at high enough level for it to actually matter. There are benefits and downsides to most specs, but NA LFG needs to realize this for the problem to be fixed. It's not a simple issue of balance.

If 2 or 3 classes dominate the meta for years it's because they're badly overtuned.  Plain and simple.  The community wants its ez mode and it will find it every time.  Not all of it is necessarily the classes themselves (i.e. exposed debuff, torment buff, etc.), but enough of it is. 

Nobody is fooling anyone trying to argue that classes like firebrand don't do too much too well compared to everything else.  It's out of control and we all know it.

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3 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If 2 or 3 classes dominate the meta for years it's because they're badly overtuned.  Plain and simple.  The community wants its ez mode and it will find it every time.  Not all of it is necessarily the classes themselves (i.e. exposed debuff, torment buff, etc.), but enough of it is. 

Nobody is fooling anyone trying to argue that classes like firebrand don't do too much too well compared to everything else.  It's out of control and we all know it.

 

This.

 

It is a bit more complex though. We evidenced this in this very game in the past in exactly this content (fractals). It was the switch from druid+chrono meta to Firebrand+Renegade.

 

If a composition of classes is to strong (not necessarily only damage related, utility and easy of play and many other factors also play into this) it will start dominating the content. No one can deny that firebrand has probably THE most out of the box utility of any class without having to commit a single trait or skills slot to it (tomes are just that good and aegis and stability is just nuts for carrying potential). Necromancer mirrors this in other areas with an innate high hitpoint pool (and don't give me this hitpoints don't matter bs, elementalist says high. It makes things safer out the box) with a very own set of very useful utilities and mechanics (heavy boon denial, epidemic, projectile destruction, pulls, etc.) pushing it just that much further than many other classes (without getting into actual mechanical skips or simplifications thanks to epidemic).

 

If one would now introduce an exactly similar powerful class/composition in every aspect, it still would see far less play than the original composition. Reasoning: why change to something new if the old and true works just as well and players are used to this?

 

This was very evident with Firebrigade taking its time to replace druid+chrono and actually requiring multiple buffs to former and nerfs to the later until it was just that much superior and forced players to switch. (similar to how heal scrapper, which can do almost all the things a hfb does for fractals, is not run. Though in all fairness, aegis and stability are just that strong in carrying teams, that hscrapper is still inferior.)

 

TL;DR:

Meta shifts only happen when forced onto the community via making an old composition significantly weaker as to encourage players to invest time into learning the new composition. Most players will always go for a mix of the easiest , safest and most reliable option to acquire rewards as to the best of their knowledge (which often is limited and flawed too).

 

Firebrand and Scourge are dominating the PUG meta because they just combine a lot of elements which compliment getting loot as reliable as possible for many players with as little knowledge as possible. Are they overpowered? Absolutely. Do they require changing? Depends on what the goal post of balance is.

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1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

stability is just nuts for carrying potential

Eh? Stability is for carry? What? It's one of the main boons for CMs to avoid unnecessary knockbacks on pretty much all 99CM bosses and pulls on Ensolyss. 

 

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

and don't give me this hitpoints don't matter bs, elementalist says high. It makes things safer out the box

it really doesn't, when skill hits for 10k, it doesn't matter if you have 11k or 18k, its two hit kill.

 

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Are they overpowered? Absolutely.

Lol, scg OP in PvE, new joke of 2022

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26 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Eh? Stability is for carry? What? It's one of the main boons for CMs to avoid unnecessary knockbacks on pretty much all 99CM bosses and pulls on Ensolyss. 

Yes, it allows a hfb to carry bad dps which eat unneccesary attacks. It's not needed, never was. You assuming that the hfb carrying you with stability is required just shows on what skill level you play.

 

FYI: 98 and 99 cm were done before Firebrigade and before stability or mass aegis was available. Even with Firebrigade, 4 cfb+1rene can clear this just as well, no stab required.

 

As such: a hfb can cary a bad team with proper aegis and stability spam. Just as I said. 

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it really doesn't, when skill hits for 10k, it doesn't matter if you have 11k or 18k, its two hit kill.

 

Except not every hit is for 10k, and eating 1 or 2 more hits means a ton of difference to inexperienced players.

 

High end players run this content on w/e they feel like. This isn't about them. This is about the mediocre players who are getting carried by a class.

 

Quote

 

Lol, scg OP in PvE, new joke of 2022

 

It is and any player who has run fractals for a long time can adhere to that. The current fractal CM pug meta is as easy as it gets. Probably only beaten by past druid+4 necro comp.

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6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

FYI: 99 and 99 cm were done before Firebrigade and before stability or mass aegis was available.

Yes, before HoT we didn't use healers either, does that mean, that post HoT druid carried us?

 

7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, it allows a hfb to carry bad dps which eat unneccesary arttacks. It's not needed, never was. You assuming that the hfb carrying you with stability is required just shows on what skill level you play.

Considering  fractal speedrun guild recommends stability for 99CM, I'd say you have nothing to go on here. Dodges are DPS loss, which adds up eventually.

 

10 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

As such: a hfb can cary a bad team with proper aegis and stability spam. Just as I said.

I have yet to see HFB carry anything.

 

11 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Except not every hit is for 10k, and eating 1 or 2 more hits means a ton of difference to inexperienced players.

Only hit's that anyone will eat that are relevant is Mama and Siax on-hit-down blasts and Arkk explosions., Everything else dies or phases too fast to matter.

 

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

High end players run this content on w/e they feel like. This isn't about them. This is about the mediocre players who are getting carried by a class.

News flash: bad players will die on any class either way.

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

It is and any player who has run fractals for a long time can adhere to that. The current fractal CM pug meta is as easy as it gets. Probably only beaten by past druid+4 necro comp.

CFB CFB CFB CQFB and condialacren is even more brain dead and OP, people play scourge because it's easier to epi on Ai 2nd phase than using CC. To be fair, besides being lazy (and maybe dealing with anomalies during Arkk) scg is very much meh DPS and utility at fractals. CFB and condiren do more dps, have more utility and better CC with rotation that's not any harder than scg. You are mistaking popularity of class with how OP it is. At current point in PvE scg is at the most balanced point - you can either do a bit more support sacrificing DPS, or DPS sucrificing some support, while FB and rene can do both sacrificing almost nothing.

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7 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Yes, before HoT we didn't use healers either, does that mean, that post HoT druid carried us?

No, fractals were very different before HoT. Not sure what your argument is, given HoT had a major fractal rework.

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Considering  fractal speedrun guild recommends stability for 99CM, I'd say you have nothing to go on here. Dodges are DPS loss, which adds up eventually.

Recommend and required are 2 very different things. In most cases speedrun groups phase bosses before stability is even required. I really hope you aren't refering to discretize here, because their advice is literally for mediocre players. It is not needed in high end gameplay.

Quote

 

I have yet to see HFB carry anything.

 

Make sure to go through some of your arc logs if you are unable to tell from gameplay where a hfb covered for your mistake. It will help improve your gameplay a lot.

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Only hit's that anyone will eat that are relevant is Mama and Siax on-hit-down blasts and Arkk explosions., Everything else dies or phases too fast to matter.

Haha, notbsure if you are serious. News flash: a lot of players eat a lot of mechanics all the time.

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News flash: bad players will die on any class either way.

Yesy and on some they will have a harder time to die.

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CFB CFB CFB CQFB and condialacren is even more brain dead and OP, people play scourge because it's easier to epi on Ai 2nd phase than using CC. To be fair, besides being lazy (and maybe dealing with anomalies during Arkk) scg is very much meh DPS and utility at fractals. CFB and condiren do more dps, have more utility and better CC with rotation that's not any harder than scg. You are mistaking popularity of class with how OP it is. At current point in PvE scg is at the most balanced point - you can either do a bit more support sacrificing DPS, or DPS sucrificing some support, while FB and rene can do both sacrificing almost nothing.

I never said cfb was balanced.

 

There can be 2 broken comps.

 

Scrg is only balanced from a dps possibility perspective as in that it achieves comparable dps. It is highly unbalanced when adding in every other factor it has going for it.

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26 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Haha, notbsure if you are serious. News flash: a lot of players eat a lot of mechanics all the time

Maybe you play on NA, or join only low KP groups. Haven't happened for a VERY long time

 

26 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

It is highly unbalanced when adding in every other factor it has going for it.

Care to elaborate? Barrier ammount post rework doesn't really make a difference, condi cleanse is done by other class either way + F2 only removes 1 condi per cast, F5 is not off CD often enough for usage as condi cleanse, projective hate is literal DPS loss, as you are switching flex spot (one used for summon) for projective hate skill (corrosive cloud), or CC, where FB and renegade are dominant either way. It's strong class, but not OP. I can see you raid and fractal quite a bit, but your lack of game knowledge is very weird.

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25 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Maybe you play on NA, or join only low KP groups. Haven't happened for a VERY long time

We are talking about ALL CM groups here.

Sure, if we were to start talking only about top 1-5% of players, arguments would be very different. Last I checked though: this was about pug groups and the majority of fractal running players, which as it is, are not part of the top 5%. In fact, if we were talking about top 1%-5%, why are we mentioning hfb or scourge to begin with, those don't see play there.

Also I wouldn't know about NA given I play on EU.

The issue is that scourge and fb are far to strong for a majority of the player base. The fact that the top end players need not make use of this does not invalidate this fact.

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Care to elaborate? Barrier ammount post rework doesn't really make a difference, condi cleanse is done by other class either way + F2 only removes 1 condi per cast, F5 is not off CD often enough for usage as condi cleanse, projective hate is literal DPS loss, as you are switching flex spot (one used for summon) for projective hate skill (corrosive cloud), or CC, where FB and renegade are dominant either way.

Epidemic:

counter sorrows (100cm), adds on artisav (for less pressure on mediocre groups), clears anomaly on arkk for less distraction, adds of any kind to be honest. Just a convenient skill which is mirrored only by Firebrand F1 spam via reset for a majority of T4 fractals. S tier utility.

Innate boon removal/conversion:

Nearly removes the need to take a dedicated boon denial build on any class. Absolute worst case: necro can take additional boon management if need be. All baked in to the regular build. A tier utility given it allows for an entirely different approach to NPNG.

Innate barrier and high hitpoint pool:

Baseline additional survival over nearly any other class. Allows for 2 necro to stay inside the explosion of the Sorrowful Spellcaster if so desired mirroring cfb Renewed Focus utility (requires Sand Flare instead of SoV, huge group survival upgrade at acceptable dps loss if required). Most noticeable to players who actually do multiclass often. This class just doesn't drop.

F2, F5:

Condi removal/transferal baseline. Who cares if it's minimal, it's there and it's given for free. Most other classes have to spec for condi removal outside of their damage build. F5 is even part of the damage rotation paired with Blood is Power.

 

Projectile hate:

Good to have and know when to use. The fact that firebrand does it better with reflect matters little given this is about the class and not composition. Very useful in situation where groups are unable to clear fast enough, say Sirens Reef.

 

Golem, additional cc:

Easy access to massive CC if needed. Again, useful to have access to IF one does not run ideal setups.

 

The class has a ton of utility. Not all of it is always needed, but it IS available. Which allows players to easier build around this 1 class. Similar to guardian, which does this even better than necromancer.

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It's strong class, but not OP. I can see you raid and fractal quite a bit, but your lack of game knowledge is very weird.

 

Funny. Given your most recent threads I'm not sure if you are joking or trolling by now.

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1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Maybe you play on NA, or join only low KP groups. Haven't happened for a VERY long time

 

Care to elaborate? Barrier ammount post rework doesn't really make a difference, condi cleanse is done by other class either way + F2 only removes 1 condi per cast, F5 is not off CD often enough for usage as condi cleanse, projective hate is literal DPS loss, as you are switching flex spot (one used for summon) for projective hate skill (corrosive cloud), or CC, where FB and renegade are dominant either way. It's strong class, but not OP. I can see you raid and fractal quite a bit, but your lack of game knowledge is very weird.

Third in line behind firebrand and renegade is still op af.  Let's not forget there are 6 other classes that aren't even on the radar.  The best you can say for 2 or 3 of them is that they can sorta do some of the things the chosen classes do (it's just that the community isn't "good enough" to recognize it...).

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9 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

I dont thing you do. Scourges pre patch did a lot of dps because of Dhuumfire bug, that would trigger off any scourge without CD - more scourges, more dps. It was fixed. Breakbars on AI are WAY bigger than anything on 99 and 98. I doubt you know how game or fractals work.

 

16 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

You should check statistics. A lot of scourges can easily get above 40k target dps on dark Ai (based on data before nov patch) where cfb really struggles to get even above 36k.

 

????

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2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

adds on artisav (for less pressure on mediocre groups)

Ok, you may have a point here, usually i take Spectral Grasp, but you got a point, on certain fractals epi is very strong.

 

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Innate barrier and high hitpoint pool:

Baseline additional survival over nearly any other class. Allows for 2 necro to stay inside the explosion of the Sorrowful Spellcaster if so desired mirroring cfb Renewed Focus utility (requires Sand Flare instead of SoV, huge group survival upgrade at acceptable dps loss if required). Most noticeable to players who actually do multiclass often. This class just doesn't drop.

This one needs to drop Sadistic Searing in favour of Desert Empowerment, havent seen many pugs running it

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

F2, F5:

Condi removal/transferal baseline. Who cares if it's minimal, it's there and it's given for free. Most other classes have to spec for condi removal outside of their damage build. F5 is even part of the damage rotation paired with Blood is Power.

F2 is part of dps rotation as well, F5 trasfers 2 condies on 17 second CD + life force, which is insanely costly to be used as condi cleanse and soul barbs bonus DPS punishes for waiting to use it as condi cleanse.

 

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Projectile hate:

Good to have and know when to use. The fact that firebrand does it better with reflect matters little given this is about the class and not composition. Very useful in situation where groups are unable to clear fast enough, say Sirens Reef.

Renegade and FB does it way better, for longer duration and on shorter CD. In Sirens reef is one of few fractals, where epidemic is above pretty much any other skill for necro.

 

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Golem, additional cc:

Easy access to massive CC if needed. Again, useful to have access to IF one does not run ideal setups.

You need to be insane to take golem over plaguelands.

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12 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Lets just honestly ask is this really and issue outside of cm100. I do not see any group requiring scourges in t4s cm98 or 99. This is not a class issue, but an encounter one.

Exactly, that and lot of even pug CM groups look for Scourges, then swap after 100CM, generally to cFB, for 99&98+T4's. 

 

Scourge brings almost full DPS potential at 600 range at a Boss with frequently moves long distance to different spots, plus the whole Epi'ing Sorrows as convenience bonus. 

But just changing Ai to hold positions longer after each move - making ranged DPS less significant, less influencer pushing, or just another new 100CM being added where Scourge is less significant - shaping what's looked for first encounter wise in LFG shaping community perception, and Scourge would be off the meta radar in no time. 

Not to say that it's not an incredibly strong spec in the last few months (namely due to the Torment and Exposed changes, which again are also not an inherently Scourge thing), but it's really not as much out of line as some others, namely Ren and FB.

Could it take some minor nerfs? Sure. But imo just starting at changing Exposed to something like 40/80, rather than 30/100, and seeing where the meta goes from there would be the way to go first. Then looking into FB Mantra CD's, then Dance of Death, then Renegade Stance and FB Tomes, and then maybe Scourge, if nothing changes until then community perception wise.

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On 1/11/2022 at 7:29 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

npng isnt as important as you say it is because everyone wants to run condi atm (except speedrunners). most scgs i see dont press f2 to condi clear or f3 for barrier, they press it to dps and those effects are just a nice bonus. its honestly not any different to coincidentally blasting guard symbols or using ele earth dagger 2 on we bleed fire, and these arent really important to consider anyways unless running without a healer

at the end of the day its just ez to dps with scg. its ez to dps with cfb. the amount of times ive seen pugs use scg/fb utility properly as a dps fails to exceed one hand. and all of this significantly underplays what other builds and classes can bring

hence why scg is a little overrated atm. everything thats meta is slightly overrated and everything that isnt is underrated. i dont see why people need to try to find additional reasons why something like scg is great when people mainly use it for a select number of things (in this case dps and epi)

Ah so not only do these classes have more utility, but they don't even have to use it.  Just rolling face produces the same or better damage than other classes and as a side-effect you get useful effects!  Nice!  Okay, so can we nerf it now?

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Could you finally stop excusing unbalanced performance because there is one spec that is even more or equally as unbalanced? 

The only reason people change to cfb after 100, and cfb only, is because of breakbars and exposed (and of course to be easy top dps for their ego :)). That combined with bosses having not enough health to deal with the insane amount of damage, makes cfb better in short phases. There is nothing else to it. Scourge is good on artsariv (spectral grasp) and arkk (any adds), siax and ensolyss. It performs notably worse on skorvald and mama because of the mentioned reasons.

In literally every other regular fractal scourge performs extremely well also. Yet again only overshadowed by cfb because stuff dies a bit faster MAYBE. 

On 1/12/2022 at 12:53 PM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

.

 

Lol, scg OP in PvE, new joke of 2022

The only joke is you denying the obvious tbh. As if there are not plenty running around in other content besides fractals, too. 

Edited by anbujackson.9564
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7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Ah so not only do these classes have more utility, but they don't even have to use it.  Just rolling face produces the same or better damage than other classes and as a side-effect you get useful effects!  Nice!  Okay, so can we nerf it now?

its really not wise to overplay this “utility” aspect of scg. back when scg sat at 29k, it was considered a garbage pve spec despite having said utility and was only mainly used for epi. it was even said that if you chose to play scg, youd immediately get kicked from groups. now it does competitive dmg, but its honestly not that special considering how its not 40k busted high and still takes time to ramp. on a fair fight that doesnt favor scg (and epi) so much, it really shouldnt be that hard to match or beat a scg

thanks to 100cm epi strat and big names selling its underrated “utility”, scg blew up in popularity despite being largely mediocre in the hands of a random pug. it took advantage of exposed changes and double frac pot condi bonuses (which arcdps still calculated for some time after it was removed), where people were still figuring out that condi >>> power in pug meta. if it werent for epi and people reading cleave dps all the time, people mightve realised that any reasonable condi build could pull similar numbers while bringing their own unique set of “utility”

a lot of things related to condi are currently broken op and scg could use some minor nerfs (but epi needs to be nuked somehow). but the problem is that scg is so overrated atm, im not sure if people can see the bigger picture or are getting tricked by how overrated popular things are

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5 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Could you finally stop excusing unbalanced performance because there is one spec that is even more or equally as unbalanced? 

It's not just one spec though. Idk when you last tried alternative comps for the fun of it (like not including FB, Ren or Scourge), but if you do, you'll likely realise that even just a somewhat competent player/group can breeze through even the hardest content in the game like Fractal CM's and Raids in their near sleep regardless. 

Almost everything is powercrept to all hell. 

Technically all content such as Raids, Strikes and Fractals can be beaten by a full squad/party just auto attacking on a myriad of builds, not even coming remotely close to enrages - that's the reality of things. 

The GW2 community just has this strange, almost dogmatic, meta obsession, where usually some influencers, speed runners or meta sites push, showcase or publish a comp or highlight a class/build and it becomes gospel (which I don't say to put blame on any of them for that, it's usually well intentioned and useful information and resources that they provide to the community, which then just runs with it way too hard)

Are those generally some of the best or even slightly overperforming builds/comps? Sure, but rarely if ever to the degree that justify the extent to which the community obsesses over them, like as if they needed massive nerfs for anything else to compete - which hasn't been the case since old Chrono being the god of support by having a monopoly over both Quickness and Alacrity (plus a completely unmatched list of other Utility) until PoF, and practically even until a ~year beyond. 

Since then, no Profession or build has been effectively "mandatory" for any and all group content due to so massively overperforming compared to anything else, or just flat out not having alternatives. 

The community barring other professions and builds from high end content because they on average result into 30 second to 3 minute longer full clears, are slightly harder to play, or just require some minor mechanical or strategic adjustments, is ridiculous, and in very small parts due to balancing issues. Anything short of balance being literally perfect, which is impossible without completely homogenising everything, the community will latch on to whatever build or comp that x influencer or y meta site highlights, and run with it like there aren't any other conceivable options, giving the impression that it's widely OP due to popularity.

 

I'm not trying to excuse Scourge to try to spare it of any nerfs, I welcome them - I just don't buy into the meta train and following hate train, that completely jumps onto one spec or build bc someone with influence said so, and then after some time wants to see it completely ruined just because they tire of it, just to jump onto the next best or even better train after, and rinse and repeat. 

 

There's so much that imo should be nerfed, so much content that should be adjusted up to be made more interesting, so many mechanics that should be refined so they are not just skipped and forgotten, etc. - but let's not pretend that if Anet yet again just nerfs another current flavour of the way to long balance cycle "the game will be whole again". 

Is Scourge overperforming somewhat? Yes, ofc. Is it an outlier with that? Not even in the slightest. Does it deserve to be dumpstered for likely years to come because of warped community perception and resulting feedback? No.

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2 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

its really not wise to overplay this “utility” aspect of scg. back when scg sat at 29k, it was considered a garbage pve spec despite having said utility and was only mainly used for epi. it was even said that if you chose to play scg, youd immediately get kicked from groups. now it does competitive dmg, but its honestly not that special considering how its not 40k busted high and still takes time to ramp. on a fair fight that doesnt favor scg (and epi) so much, it really shouldnt be that hard to match or beat a scg

thanks to 100cm epi strat and big names selling its underrated “utility”, scg blew up in popularity despite being largely mediocre in the hands of a random pug. it took advantage of exposed changes and double frac pot condi bonuses (which arcdps still calculated for some time after it was removed), where people were still figuring out that condi >>> power in pug meta. if it werent for epi and people reading cleave dps all the time, people mightve realised that any reasonable condi build could pull similar numbers while bringing their own unique set of “utility”

a lot of things related to condi are currently broken op and scg could use some minor nerfs (but epi needs to be nuked somehow). but the problem is that scg is so overrated atm, im not sure if people can see the bigger picture or are getting tricked by how overrated popular things are

Maybe my perspective is borked by playing weaver, but I'll be damned if I can figure why it can't provide utility and doesn't perform significantly better on damage than a class like condi firebrand and somehow this isn't broken?  I look at scourge and see the same thing.  Is weaver destroying the damage charts compared to scourge?  Yet scourge has better range, it has epi, it has barrier, it deals about as much damage (realistically), etc., etc.

I know some will argue that we should bring other classes up, but I don't think that's correct.  I think we're at pretty crazy levels of power creep at this point and it's long since trivialized the content.  So the obvious solution is to nerf it.  Does scourge need nerfing like firebrand and renegade?  No.  But it could use some if you're comparing to classes that aren't brokenly OP, which is what I've been saying.

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