Regarding conditions and healing skills

[Swagg.9236]

• All healing skills get ammo counts of 3 with skill recharges somewhere around 5-10s and count recharges set around 45-60s (healing totals get readjusted).
• All healing skills cure 3-5 conditions (maybe get bonus healing when user is unaffected by conditions or lower recharge if used above certain HP thresholds).
• No traits or gear items (like runes or sigils) are allowed to passively cleanse conditions.
• No skills that directly deal damage (or are tied to something that deals damage) are allowed to cleanse conditions.
• Certain "support-style" weapon kits and utility skills receive more condition cleansing properties or current ones are buffed.

So why isn't this the way things work? 

Why is most of the condition removal not only passive but also so incongruently distributed amongst every class?  It wouldn't be hard to redistribute and concentrate condition removal into healing skills and certain "support" weapons.  Then at least it would not only be clear when people are attempting to clear conditions, but also the people who want to clear conditions know exactly which skills to make available if somebody gets condition bombed (as opposed to relying on hidden cooldowns on a bunch of random gear items and passives).  I'm not saying that your system doesn't """work""" now as it is, but it's not only incredibly esoteric and obfuscated when viewing from an outside perspective, but it's also incredibly clunky to use if players aren't willing to shoehorn themselves into a select few builds (metagame) which just so happen to mostly run themselves or coincidentally synergize with the best passives.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[FarmBotXD.1430]

laughs in power block

[Bazsi.2734]

4 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

So why isn't this the way things work? 

Because there needs to be some design space to allow classes and e-specs to feel different. If every spec on every class got ammo system heal that cleanses conditions by default, you'd eliminate much of the flavour of the classes.

Withdraw on thief wouldn't work with a 45-60 second count recharge. Mantra of Solace and Mantra of Recovery would perform even worse... unless you normalised everything. Count recharge, healing amount, conditions cleansed... and at that point they are all the same skill: Mending... sound super fun right? Hard pass.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Swagg.9236]

3 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Because there needs to be some design space to allow classes and e-specs to feel different. If every spec on every class got ammo system heal that cleanses conditions by default, you'd eliminate much of the flavour of the classes.

Withdraw on thief wouldn't work with a 45-60 second count recharge. Mantra of Solace and Mantra of Recovery would perform even worse... unless you normalised everything. Count recharge, healing amount, conditions cleansed... and at that point they are all the same skill: Mending... sound super fun right? Hard pass.

How is the PvP metagame defined by "different" classes and e-specs?  Everyone effectively uses the same mechanics across every class.  Things have gotten so bad that you don't even see legitimately class-restricted, unique mechanics like Portal anymore.  Moreover, generic self-healing sources doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is automatically pigeonholed into the same playstyles.  The entire Dark Souls franchise works to defy that idea, particularly the third installment.  Why not normalize everything?  It's not like every class already doesn't trend toward the same, homogenous mechanic stacking of invuln/evade/block/blind/teleport/passive healing.  Tell me the actual problem of giving everybody Estus (or Mending) outside of it just boiling down to a flavor argument.

I'll concede that this game is hysterically saturated with passive and instant stun mechanics, but does that mean that a normalized, consistent and fair healing system HAS to be oppressed by poorly implemented and arbitrary distribution of control mechanics?  It's not like you couldn't cull the insane amount of control this game throws around (by the way, all that control is what pigeonholes so many classes into taking that homogenized blend of reactive and passive defense mechanics).

[Genesis.5169]

Your complaining about class diversity.
Of all the things to complain about you complain about the one thing that makes an RPG an RPG, perhaps you should play another genre where one size fits all things exist like shooters.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Genesis.5169

[Bazsi.2734]

5 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

How is the PvP metagame defined by "different" classes and e-specs?  Everyone effectively uses the same mechanics across every class.  Things have gotten so bad that you don't even see legitimately class-restricted, unique mechanics like Portal anymore.  Moreover, generic self-healing sources doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is automatically pigeonholed into the same playstyles.  The entire Dark Souls franchise works to defy that idea, particularly the third installment.  Why not normalize everything?  It's not like every class already doesn't trend toward the same, homogenous mechanic stacking of invuln/evade/block/blind/teleport/passive healing.  Tell me the actual problem of giving everybody Estus (or Mending) outside of it just boiling down to a flavor argument.

I'll concede that this game is hysterically saturated with passive and instant stun mechanics, but does that mean that a normalized, consistent and fair healing system HAS to be oppressed by poorly implemented and arbitrary distribution of control mechanics?  It's not like you couldn't cull the insane amount of control this game throws around (by the way, all that control is what pigeonholes so many classes into taking that homogenized blend of reactive and passive defense mechanics).

I don't need to think that deeply about it. Classes are meant to feel different, therefore any change that makes them more alike is bad. Different specs have different strenghts and weaknesses, which define how they are played.
A shiro/glint revenant dueling a DH can actually top him/herself off by deliberately walking into the traps and popping glint heal. A necromancer can decide to tank extra conditions just before consuming them for extra heal. A guardian can  bait an enemy burst only to pop Shelter in their face, healing while blocking the entire thing... all of this is lost if you have a normalised standard healing system.

This game was wild since PoF dropped, and we mostly spent these years yearning for a semblance of balance. But the thing is, too much "balance" would be just as bad if not worse. And you're definitely on that side with this "everyone gets the same sustain" idea.

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

A shiro/glint revenant dueling a DH can actually top him/herself off by deliberately walking into the traps and popping glint heal.

never phrase a sentence like this ever again. ty.

[Ovark.2514]

I vote that all condition removal be removed from the game. That way, conditions have a chance to get balanced without having certain classes be outliers.

[ollbirtan.2915]

I am not sure if this post is serious or troll? Just remove all skills from pvp already, y'all! 

[Swagg.9236]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:48 PM, Bazsi.2734 said:

I don't need to think that deeply about it. Classes are meant to feel different, therefore any change that makes them more alike is bad. Different specs have different strenghts and weaknesses, which define how they are played.
A shiro/glint revenant dueling a DH can actually top him/herself off by deliberately walking into the traps and popping glint heal. A necromancer can decide to tank extra conditions just before consuming them for extra heal. A guardian can  bait an enemy burst only to pop Shelter in their face, healing while blocking the entire thing... all of this is lost if you have a normalised standard healing system.

This game was wild since PoF dropped, and we mostly spent these years yearning for a semblance of balance. But the thing is, too much "balance" would be just as bad if not worse. And you're definitely on that side with this "everyone gets the same sustain" idea.

If people are afforded the same opportunities to interact in a certain way with a mechanic that saturates the game, then there is inherently the ability to use that opportunity well or poorly.  If everybody can cleanse conditions and heal, then they can also waste them, use them poorly or use them well.  Just like knowing when to estus in Dark Souls or when to bee-line for a health pack in a quake-like game, it adds another dimension to player interactivity and therefore raises the skill ceiling.

Frankly, the problem I'm seeing here in this thread is the immediate conclusions that people make about what this sort of healing skill paradigm would look like:  harping about how 3 Shelters in a row would be terrible, or how Withdraw isn't """supposed to work that way."""  Healing shouldn't be some freebee.  The worst thing that anybody could do for GW2 at this point is remove EVEN MORE risk from combat.  The established metagame holds the player's hand so fiercely right now as it is.  As was mentioned before (as a joke, but the irony is that he's more on track than he would want to admit), the goal is more like giving everybody a set of Mendings so that people could heal based on their own decision-making processes and not force the game to rely so heavily on passive elements to insulate players from risk while they do anything involving attacking.

[Bazsi.2734]

12 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

If people are afforded the same opportunities to interact in a certain way with a mechanic that saturates the game, then there is inherently the ability to use that opportunity well or poorly.  If everybody can cleanse conditions and heal, then they can also waste them, use them poorly or use them well.  Just like knowing when to estus in Dark Souls or when to bee-line for a health pack in a quake-like game, it adds another dimension to player interactivity and therefore raises the skill ceiling.

Frankly, the problem I'm seeing here in this thread is the immediate conclusions that people make about what this sort of healing skill paradigm would look like:  harping about how 3 Shelters in a row would be terrible, or how Withdraw isn't """supposed to work that way."""  Healing shouldn't be some freebee.  The worst thing that anybody could do for GW2 at this point is remove EVEN MORE risk from combat.  The established metagame holds the player's hand so fiercely right now as it is.  As was mentioned before (as a joke, but the irony is that he's more on track than he would want to admit), the goal is more like giving everybody a set of Mendings so that people could heal based on their own decision-making processes and not force the game to rely so heavily on passive elements to insulate players from risk while they do anything involving attacking.

Is this really your point? Players with healskills of your design(3 charge mending) heal using their own decisions and skill, opposed to players with the current healskills(1 charge mending) who suffer from "metagame handholding" and do not decide on their own when to heal... what?

(MMO)RPG-s are about every class being as unique as possible. They have to be, it's a requirement for the genre. This is why people play them. Therefore whatever problem you see, you cannot solve them by making classes the same in any regard.
And if the goal is to make everyone the same, you can go play those shooters you mentioned.

PS.:Oh and by the way I did not mention Mending as a sarcastic joke. What you described as a desired general healskill was Mending with 3 charges. I played this game way too much and know most skills and traits off the top of head.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Swagg.9236]

20 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Is this really your point? Players with healskills of your design(3 charge mending) heal using their own decisions and skill, opposed to players with the current healskills(1 charge mending) who suffer from "metagame handholding" and do not decide on their own when to heal... what?

(MMO)RPG-s are about every class being as unique as possible. They have to be, it's a requirement for the genre. This is why people play them. Therefore whatever problem you see, you cannot solve them by making classes the same in any regard.
And if the goal is to make everyone the same, you can go play those shooters you mentioned.

PS.:Oh and by the way I did not mention Mending as a sarcastic joke. What you described as a desired general healskill was Mending with 3 charges. I played this game way too much and know most skills and traits off the top of head.

Why keep arguing about how unique classes in mmos have to be when GW2's PvP revolves around a super shallow pool of universal mechanics which everybody tries to cram into their build?  I'll admit to shouting at the wind here (because it's clear the average investee in GW2 PvP doesn't truly comprehend the attributes and differences between simple and complex systems), but the main issue with this gamemode is the very fact that no class is truly unique.  Moreover, even attempting to be unique is just going to get you put into a wall by some dude using the same build(s) as everybody else.  You've got support (which is basically just cooldown solitaire), and you've got attack-while-negating-effects man.  The rotations might not necessarily be identical, but the overall feeling is very similar.  There is very little interaction; it's more like a combination of rock-paper-scissors and whack-a-mole.  Matchups can resolve one way or another merely by the way two people loaded up a build prior to a match rather than in how they expressed themselves during an actual fight.

GW2 lacks spontaneity.  That's why the metagame is so homogenous.  It's also why, if you're going to have everybody use nothing but the same 3-4 mechanics anyway, you might as well continue the homogeneity in a way which actually allows players to use their tools well or poorly.  At least that way, you'd have an actual skill ceiling compared to what you feature now.

[Genesis.5169]

14 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Why keep arguing about how unique classes in mmos have to be when GW2's PvP revolves around a super shallow pool of universal mechanics which everybody tries to cram into their build?  I'll admit to shouting at the wind here (because it's clear the average investee in GW2 PvP doesn't truly comprehend the attributes and differences between simple and complex systems), but the main issue with this gamemode is the very fact that no class is truly unique.  Moreover, even attempting to be unique is just going to get you put into a wall by some dude using the same build(s) as everybody else.  You've got support (which is basically just cooldown solitaire), and you've got attack-while-negating-effects man.  The rotations might not necessarily be identical, but the overall feeling is very similar.  There is very little interaction; it's more like a combination of rock-paper-scissors and whack-a-mole.  Matchups can resolve one way or another merely by the way two people loaded up a build prior to a match rather than in how they expressed themselves during an actual fight.

GW2 lacks spontaneity.  That's why the metagame is so homogenous.  It's also why, if you're going to have everybody use nothing but the same 3-4 mechanics anyway, you might as well continue the homogeneity in a way which actually allows players to use their tools well or poorly.  At least that way, you'd have an actual skill ceiling compared to what you feature now.

I don't know man just between the light armor classes alone (Mesmer/Ele/Necro) They play vastly different, you confuse game mechanics with class mechanics.

So Burning is a Game mechanic, you can be burned by every class you can be burned by npcs in boss fights in the open world and many many different places burning does not belong to a class it belongs to the game. You can apply that same logic to every buff and condition in the game except ones unique to a profession, we even have rare conditions and buffs to strive for like quickness slow and confuse.

The meta game is homogeneous because we ripped out all of the amulets and runes and destroyed entire traitlines. Has nothing to do with how classes are played people can't play them how they want to because they don't have the amulets and runes and sigils in game to do that in Spvp. And no its not the same 3-4 mechanics you deal with 3 or 4 different mechanics by just going from fighting a good theif to fighting a good war winning those then suddenly an FA ele blows you kitten up for 25k out of nowhere.

Your issue maybe coming from the itemization nerfs which legitimately ripped hundreds of unknown and known builds out of the game, it did fix balance but we lost alot of the games uniqueness and ingenuity by doing so. Maybe we start there or maybe i need to move on to wvw...

 

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Why keep arguing about how unique classes in mmos have to be when GW2's PvP revolves around a super shallow pool of universal mechanics which everybody tries to cram into their build?  I'll admit to shouting at the wind here (because it's clear the average investee in GW2 PvP doesn't truly comprehend the attributes and differences between simple and complex systems), but the main issue with this gamemode is the very fact that no class is truly unique.  Moreover, even attempting to be unique is just going to get you put into a wall by some dude using the same build(s) as everybody else.  You've got support (which is basically just cooldown solitaire), and you've got attack-while-negating-effects man.  The rotations might not necessarily be identical, but the overall feeling is very similar.  There is very little interaction; it's more like a combination of rock-paper-scissors and whack-a-mole.  Matchups can resolve one way or another merely by the way two people loaded up a build prior to a match rather than in how they expressed themselves during an actual fight.

GW2 lacks spontaneity.  That's why the metagame is so homogenous.  It's also why, if you're going to have everybody use nothing but the same 3-4 mechanics anyway, you might as well continue the homogeneity in a way which actually allows players to use their tools well or poorly.  At least that way, you'd have an actual skill ceiling compared to what you feature now.

Could you contradict yourself any more within a single post?

Your complaint is that classes feel too similar, so, your solution to this is to make them even more similar? They may not be as different as you'd like, but playing against Glint heal is definitely different to playing against Troll Unguent. Making both of them the same as Mending makes your problem worse, not better.

You say that all builds are essentially the same, but then you go on to claim that the outcome of matchups is mostly down to build and not skill / player-input. Well, which is it?

You cannot simultaneously want to make all builds identical so that the only determining factor is player-input AND want to enable divergent builds/playstyles.

I would normally assume this is trolling, because it's so obviously illogical, but, given this is the GW2 forums.....

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Ragnar.4257