Can we please talk about Conditions, Resolution and game balance once more in the competitive scene?

[Yasai.3549]

I understand both sides of the argument:
On one hand, we can't have total Condi immunity like old Resistance because it invalidated Condi builds on a larger, team scale. 
But on the other hand, small scale or 5v5 has been utterly ruined by the passive nature of Conditions killing builds who cannot match their cleanses against the Condi output rate. 

Resolution imo needs to be buffed or reworked. 
Resolution being as it is just prolongs the suffering of players who cannot actively puke out cleanses on the same rate as builds who puke out Conditions. (Poor Warrior players) 

What I'm asking for isn't immunity but this: 
Resolution reduces Condition damage by 33% 
Resolution also prevents additional Conditions to continue stacking on the target
Resolution now is a stack based Boon similar to Stability. Blocking an instance of damaging Condition from applying will remove one stack. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Dawdler.8521]

Checks metabattle

4 out of 5 meta Conquest sPvP builds are power ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(oh and yes I love that I keep getting reactions for a thread that was posted in general discussion talking about the competetive scene).

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[ysnake.3619]

4 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Checks metabattle

4 out of 5 meta Conquest sPvP builds are power ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I believe this post is about WvW.

[Yasai.3549]

27 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Checks metabattle

4 out of 5 meta Conquest sPvP builds are power ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

22 minutes ago, ysnake.3619 said:

I believe this post is about WvW.

Yea I mentioned large-scale balancing, it's mainly about WvW. 
In PvP, people are severely limited by Rune-Sigil-Ammy choice, in WvW it's a different kinda deal.
Also most skills are split between PvP and WvW. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Zyreva.1078]

Which competitive scene in WvW are you talking about? If you are referring to organised small grps with 50% or more support builds - those are already more or less immune to conditions, just like larger zergs. Condis shine at killing a bunch of noobs, that's about it. Not really something that can and should get balanced arround.

[Xenesis.6389]

Meanwhile the biggest annoying condition to deal with for me is immobilize spam, which resolution does nothing to.

 

[Telgum.6071]

Noooo condition abuse is totally normal, power is worse, if you remove trailblazer you have to remove marauder, is totally fine to have stacked condition + vitality + toughness, just leave me play my full celestial gear because I never learned how to play a more risky and melee power character that only has like one or two key damage skills while mine can spam conditions until the end of days!

/s

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

16 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Noooo condition abuse is totally normal, power is worse, if you remove trailblazer you have to remove marauder, is totally fine to have stacked condition + vitality + toughness, just leave me play my full celestial gear because I never learned how to play a more risky and melee power character that only has like one or two key damage skills while mine can spam conditions until the end of days!

/s

inb4 condi apologist says condis aren't strong, everyone just has to run cleansing sigil or be instantly countered.

Edited January 4, 2022 by BeepBoopBop.5403

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Checks metabattle

4 out of 5 meta Conquest sPvP builds are power ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LMAO. You should stay within the same game mode, or is that your tactic for when reality doesn't go by your expectations.

6 out of 14 of Metabattle's top roaming builds are conditions, and that is after the insane power creep of 3 clears per cleansing sigil.

Edited January 4, 2022 by BeepBoopBop.5403

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Putting aside that resolution isn't really super available to most classes anyway...

I personally HATE stacking buffs.  If resolution were to stack--I dunno, I play ranger so say 10 stacks or something like unblockable--it'd be undone super quickly by builds that puke conditions. For instance, also speaking from ranger standpoint, I can put 10 stacks of bleed on in a second or so if playing the right build.  

That is, stacking buffs always seem to go to waste or have a super small effective window...not sure that's great for a survival based thing like condition mitigation.  

Anyway, from my perspective, full condi immunity was fine--we have full power immunity all the time, whether that is through block, reflect, blind, etc. or straight up invulnerability.  

Edited January 4, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Telgum.6071]

11 minutes ago, BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

LMAO. You should stay within the same game mode, or is that your tactic for when reality doesn't go by your expectations.

6 out of 14 of Metabattle's top roaming builds are conditions, and that is after the insane power creep of 3 clears per cleansing sigil.

I will never forget, that is the same guy talking about him being super good at GW2 at levels we mortals could never reach, right after saying he doesn't play GW2 anymore. Yet you find him in every single thread you step on this forum.

[Zyreva.1078]

13 minutes ago, BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

LMAO. You should stay within the same game mode, or is that your tactic for when reality doesn't go by your expectations.

6 out of 14 of Metabattle's top roaming builds are conditions, and that is after the insane power creep of 3 clears per cleansing sigil.

That leaves 8 out of 14 for power, right? So where is the problem exactly? (Aside from cele - which does not equal condi btw, it's a hybrid stat).

13 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Anyway, from my perspective, full condi immunity was fine--we have full power immunity all the time, whether that is through block, reflect, blind, etc. or straight up invulnerability.  

Uhm, all those things work vs condis too. For "power only" immunity there is only Signet of Stone and Endure Pain.

[Zikory.6871]

lol conditions are extremely strong. A unorganized group just won't out condition a few scrappers. Unlike power spikes generating downs, your group needs to be able to sustain while keeping Conditions applied. It's frankly to hard for most groups.

[Chaba.5410]

"cannot match their cleanses against the Condi output rate"

What is the time-to-kill though?  Your words about an output rate imply to me that the fight is going on for awhile.  Conditions are supposed to win out over power builds the longer a fight goes on and that's been the case since launch.  That's also why condition builds rely upon survivability.

Resolution only "prolongs the suffering" by giving a power build a little extra time to get it's burst in order, but it was never meant to allow a power build to go toe-to-toe in time-to-kill against a condi build.

Now if there's a condi build that has a pretty short TTK, that should be looked at by looking at the build specifically.  Resolution would really have little to do with balancing that.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Uhm, all those things work vs condis too. For "power only" immunity there is only Signet of Stone and Endure Pain.

 

They may work on initial application, but if you can get a condi burst off then block/reflect/blind won't do much as the conditions continue to tick away.  Entangle is a good example of this, it can be blocked...but only the first tick, then it will hit and apply the bleeds.  

But yes, Signet of Stone / Endure Pain are examples of things that actually need removed to balance out what they did with Resistance.    

Edited January 4, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

LMAO. You should stay within the same game mode, or is that your tactic for when reality doesn't go by your expectations.

6 out of 14 of Metabattle's top roaming builds are conditions, and that is after the insane power creep of 3 clears per cleansing sigil.

I'm quite amused how 4/14 builds are Teef ones, yet we constantly can see how they claim that they're weak and need some buffs.

[coro.3176]

4 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I understand both sides of the argument:
On one hand, we can't have total Condi immunity like old Resistance because it invalidated Condi builds on a larger, team scale. 
But on the other hand, small scale or 5v5 has been utterly ruined by the passive nature of Conditions killing builds who cannot match their cleanses against the Condi output rate. 

What "passive nature of condi"? You got hit by a skill, probably many skills. You did! If you don't believe it, go back and check the combat log. Those 10 stacks of bleed and 5 poison didn't materialize from the aether to oppress your character. An opposing player looked at you and pressed their offensive buttons, and you failed to press your defensive buttons in return.

You deserve it - Just as a player that gets hit by a 30k one-wolf-pack unblockable rapid fire deserves it - Just as a player that gets hit by Death's Judgement deserves it - or any power skill for that matter. The difference is that condi skills mercifully allow you to cleanse the damage or heal AFTER you got hit BEFORE it applies.

If you have a complaint about a specific condi skill that is doing too much damage or applying too much control, then name it. Otherwise, I will  have to insist that the condi vs cleanse arms race is currently leaning heavily in cleanse's favour.

Edited January 4, 2022 by coro.3176

[Zyreva.1078]

48 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

They may work on initial application, but if you can get a condi burst off then block/reflect/blind won't do much as the conditions continue to tick away.  Entangle is a good example of this, it can be blocked...but only the first tick, then it will hit and apply the bleeds.  

But yes, Signet of Stone / Endure Pain are examples of things that actually need removed to balance out what they did with Resistance.    

You know what happens if you try to block/dodge/blind after getting hit by power burst? Well, you probably don't, because at that point you are already dead. But if you do get a chance to still press your buttons, they do exactly as much as they do vs condis (except with invuln skills that can actually prevent condis from dealing dmg after getting hit).

And entangle is a bad example, because the skill itself is unblockable, so ofc it will hit a blocking target. That has nothing to do with power or condi. Dodge it or blind it and it does nothing, no bleeds (which are the least scary part about that skill), no roots. And SoS/EP aren't anywhere close to old resistance. Short duration/long cd, self only, no stacking, can't be shared and extended unlike boons such as resistance. Ridiculous comparison. But by all means, nerf those skills and the only class that gets hurt is warrior (definitely deserves some nerfs, yes, so op!), because ranger has much better defensive skills anyway.

Edited January 4, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, ysnake.3619 said:

I believe this post is about WvW.

This thread was posted in general discussion and was mentioning the "competetive scene". In fact its still in the title. So LMAO at everyone reacting. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Junkpile.7439]

You don't nerf condis, you nerf condi specs. Condis already weak when you don't play revenant or something that just puke condis.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm quite amused how 4/14 builds are Teef ones, yet we constantly can see how they claim that they're weak and need some buffs.

It's the roaming section. How many thief builds do you see in the zerg build section? There are also 3 ranger builds; how many ranger builds do you see in the zerg section? It's almost like these classes are specialized towards roaming or something. EDIT: also LMAO one of them is S/D Daredevil, see a bunch of those winning every fight for sure! Two of them are COMPLETELY countered by Mark.

Other classes that are not 'strong' roamers are compensated by having a zerg build in template they can swap to at any time. What's more annoying than a trapper DH? One that turns into a minstrel FB in two button clicks.

Edited January 4, 2022 by BeepBoopBop.5403

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I still believe condition needs a third stats just like berserker does. You cannot only focus on crit chance and crit damage because you will lack power, hence you will deal less critical damage. You cannot only focus on power and crit chance because your crit will deal about the same as a white hit. You cannot only focus on power and crit damage because you will rarely crit.

 

Meanwhile with condition you're really free to customize : you need condition damage, that's for sure but you dont always need expertise. It helps but you can kind of get away with it if you burst pressure. And that's it, the 2 remaining stats are whatever you want it to be. 

 

 

[coro.3176]

6 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

I still believe condition needs a third stats just like berserker does. You cannot only focus on crit chance and crit damage because you will lack power, hence you will deal less critical damage. You cannot only focus on power and crit chance because your crit will deal about the same as a white hit. You cannot only focus on power and crit damage because you will rarely crit.

 

Meanwhile with condition you're really free to customize : you need condition damage, that's for sure but you dont always need expertise. It helps but you can kind of get away with it if you burst pressure. And that's it, the 2 remaining stats are whatever you want it to be. 

 

 

Condition builds by their nature need to be tanky in order to survive the additional time it takes for their damage to tick.

All things being equal, it's better for you if you can kill your target in 3 seconds vs 30. Condi builds can't kill in 3 seconds, so they need to rely on survivability.

[nativity.3057]

Me reading this thread as a Core Guardian connoisseur:

Edited January 5, 2022 by nativity.3057

[Xenesis.6389]

Third stat huh, sure... just give condi ticks the ability to crit, then you'd have to run precision and ferocity for it, cele stats will be even better!

🤭