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Bring back half of the orignal damage from CC of Warriors


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3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not being Coy. Warrior is much worse off than you think. I'll let CTS chime in with the count of warrior representation in the MATs.

Warrior's sustain is almost good enough, its damage almost good enough, and its mobility almost good enough, but when you pair that up against several specs that are WAY overtuned in comparison that just results in warrior not being good enough in reality.

Does it have a decent chassis? Sure, but its trait lines and weapons are out of date to the point where that chassis no longer matters like it once did.

Now, we can have a conversation about what the other specs need to have nerfed so that they are not overtuned and brought down to warrior level's of tuning, or we can discuss targeted buffs to warrior so that it is at least good enough at something relative to the other specs.

MAT are a dumb metric because no one plays MATs at best there are 4 teams out of the entire population thats a stupid metric to use and you know this. Warriors maybe the tankiest class in the game your definitely being coy. I stand by warriors receiving buffs but thats way to far and all you'll do is make warrior a fotm and just as bad a rev.

Edited by Genesis.5169
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You know what Anet big mistake was? instead of just nerfing the damage of CC by 50% they just over nerfed the damage by 95% What the hell was Anet Thinking? Did they really think making CC to hav

No damage on all CC was and still is an absolute joke.  Damage should be in proportion to the skill used.   For example: Hammer 5. Big slow melee swing called 'backbreaker' I feel

It was a bad suggestion last year and it did not become better just like that. CC are fine without damage, they already have an impact big enough + You do not make an exception “just because I wa

As a Warrior main, let me just agree and say I hope at least one Anet dev will play Warrior for more than 20 minutes to understand just how unbearably bad it is.

They don't understand just how much good balancing can carry this game. Warrior is trash. If they gave it more love and stopped dry humping their guardian/necro toons and reminiscing about every class other than Warrior they'd realize this class has been neglected to an unbearable point. Like it shouldn't even be called a "profession" just roleplay or costume. That's how bad warrior is and has been for such a long time.

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36 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

MAT are a dumb metric because no one plays MATs at best there are 4 teams out of the entire population thats a stupid metric to use and you know this. Warriors maybe the tankiest class in the game your definitely being coy. I stand by warriors receiving buffs but thats way to far and all you'll do is make warrior a fotm and just as bad a rev.

Oh I'm on the record admitting that they have a strong starting chassis so I am not being coy so you can stop right there with that nonsense. That doesn't matter when other classes with their own traits can inflate their own stats to match, and get things like perma prot, 7 evades on their bar, spam barrier, spam weakness, spam blind, and/or walk around with +50% damage reduction versus everything.

You say warriors are tanky because of it's base stats, but in reality they pale in comparison to what other specs can achieve while still have fewer stats.

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52 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not being Coy. Warrior is much worse off than you think. I'll let CTS chime in with the count of warrior representation in the MATs.

Warrior's sustain is almost good enough, its damage almost good enough, and its mobility almost good enough, but when you pair that up against several specs that are WAY overtuned in comparison that just results in warrior not being good enough in reality.

Does it have a decent chassis? Sure, but its trait lines and weapons are out of date to the point where that chassis no longer matters like it once did.

Now, we can have a conversation about what the other specs need to have nerfed so that they are not overtuned and brought down to warrior level's of tuning, or we can discuss targeted buffs to warrior so that it is at least good enough at something relative to the other specs.

As someone who tinkers with Warrior when I'm not coping on Mesmer/Elementalist/Other classes...

 

It hurts my heart just how much of a different play style it takes to have a chance against anything aside from another Warrior.

 

I legitimately DREAD fighting anything else when I'm on Warrior.

 

My biggest gripe is a 75s CD stun break that cleanses 4 conditions. And I think the reason it even has the CD that jacked is because of AoE/supporting allies.

 

Warrior vs Warrior is probably the funnest of all duels as a side-note for good feels. (Out of all the specs I've played; out of the 8 years I've played.)

 

I had to argue this just yesterday on the Mesmer forums (they want second dodge back while having Power Block + Mantra of Distraction existing.)

 

Blah blah, Mesmer isn't as bad as people say, blah blah. (It's just overshadowed by the over-performing specs.)

 

Warrior is very much so in the same boat. If they gave it the same kinda love they've been giving other specs, who knows where it'd be now.

 

(There's obviously some exceptions such as out-of-date utilities like Featherfoot Grace/Zerker Stance/Heal Signet- but I refuse to rant about all the resistance nuances... Like how it doesn't affect poison reducing healing.)

 

Oh yeah, also don't give back CC damage. Just knock the other specs down to size- give them that https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staggering_Blow they deserve.

 

#CopiumForBladeSworn #Headshot

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3 minutes ago, kybraga.7103 said:

As someone who tinkers with Warrior when I'm not coping on Mesmer/Elementalist/Other classes...

 

It hurts my heart just how much of a different play style it takes to have a chance against anything aside from another Warrior.

 

I legitimately DREAD fighting anything else when I'm on Warrior.

 

My biggest gripe is a 75s CD stun break that cleanses 4 conditions. And I think the reason it even has the CD that jacked is because of AoE/supporting allies.

 

Warrior vs Warrior is probably the funnest of all duels as a side-note for good feels. (Out of all the specs I've played; out of the 8 years I've played.)

 

I had to argue this just yesterday on the Mesmer forums (they want second dodge back while having Power Block + Mantra of Distraction existing.)

 

Blah blah, Mesmer isn't as bad as people say, blah blah. (It's just overshadowed by the over-performing specs.)

 

Warrior is very much so in the same boat. If they gave it the same kinda love they've been giving other specs, who knows where it'd be now.

 

(There's obviously some exceptions such as out-of-date utilities like Featherfoot Grace/Zerker Stance/Heal Signet- but I refuse to rant about all the resistance nuances... Like how it doesn't affect poison reducing healing.)

 

Oh yeah, also don't give back CC damage. Just knock the other specs down to size- give them that https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staggering_Blow they deserve.

 

#CopiumForBladeSworn #Headshot

Again, do we have so many other specs nerfed down and kitten off that many other players or do we do targeted buffs on the few classes that are struggling?

I'd rather the other classes not get kneecapped by the amount they need to be for warrior in it's current state to be equally tuned.

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1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Again, do we have so many other specs nerfed down and kitten off that many other players or do we do targeted buffs on the few classes that are struggling?

I'd rather the other classes not get kneecapped by the amount they need to be for warrior in it's current state to be equally tuned.

It feels like a choice between fried eggs or scrambled eggs for breakfast. You want eggs, but don't know how you want them.

 

In an ideal world it would be healthy to do a mixture of both knocking certain over-tuned things on certain specs and then bring up some under-tuned things on other specs. But if you had to pick one or the other, it gets complicated and that's where biases come in fast.

 

(Also sunny side up fried eggs on toast ftw.)

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6 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Warrior is plagued by easily avoidable attacks that pretty much rely on CC to set up combos, but with the total nerf of damage on half their combo pieces other classes can even further invalidate a lot of warriors attacks by just facetanking the CC with stability and stunbreaks while saving their defensives for the only damage dealing attacks.

^. 

I don't know why people are making this so complicated.

Originally, Warrior and its elites were designed around landing cc to keep players stationary, so that they could land their big telegraph moves. That's why things like Arcing Slice, Hundred blades and Eviscerate have such short ranges and animation locks. 

That's -all- they can do. they have no surprise bursts, no way of obfuscating when the burst will happen, no way to cancel or hide its animations.

Before the megapatch, warriors would get damage numbers off their opponents for connecting the (already very visible, very dodgeable, very interrupible/blindable) cc, which would help add pressure on an opponent who chose not to dodge those. even if they stunbreak or had stab, letting the skill connect would do something.

Now, since cc does 7-13 damage, on top of the originally gigantic telegraph of a warrior lunging at you or beginning an animation that you could dodge or blind or kite reasonably easily, there is an additional window of telegraph for players that holds their hand and says, very sweetly into their ears: "Listen. Babe. Sugar. If you don't press a button right now you might take some damage."  This allows them to  facetank the telegraphed skill before stunbreaking and facing no repercussions for doing so. 

Meanwhile, the warriors have limited options for dealing with any incoming damage. They cannot output weakness at will, their cleanse buttons have 1 - 1.25 minute cooldowns, their stunbreaks animation lock them (or are shared with their cleanses). They are being asked to do more active, preventative defense (dodging, preparing for burst setup before they happen instead of reacting to the setup) than the classes they fight (who, on top of being able to take preventative defensive measures, can now also react upon failing that and eating a setup without taking damage). 

Now, if you want warriors to do that, fine. I don't mind using braincells instead of committing to the unga. But if you're going to ask that, they need to have:

-> More reward for performing that successfully (i.e. getting hit by an eviscerate at T3 on a glass warrior/getting hit by a glass berserker burst that announces you're going to get hit by it should oneshot you) [<- I am sure nobody likes this one but hopefully you can see why that is potentially a solution.]

-> More mitigation to attempt performing it more times (i.e. Mitigation cooldowns should be reduced so that when that ranger inevitably Lightning Reflexes for not dodging the bulls charge, the warrior has more readily available, active options for evading or blocking the incoming damage while waiting for another window. [ <-- I personally like this one ]
 

You can't expect warrior players to be happy playing with the drawbacks of no stealth, low defenses, telegraphs, range requirements for its harder hitting moves when players have extra time to think about what to do when any of the setups connected under those constraints hit them. 
 

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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I agree with bringing damage back on CC, specially for warrior. I mean necro has damage on CC through fear. Granted you have to trait for it and it can be cleansed but still. On warrior for instance "Head butt" still does 50% more damage if removing stability...so like up to 7 damage from 5 lol There are still skills in their kit designed around doing damage with CC kitten.

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48 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

LEAVE GEN ALONE. He is a mirage main. 

Zamn Mirage mega trash that's why I fall on them all the time.

 

WvW and less so PvP are playgrounds for the current staff iteration of condi miragge. Condi mirage in general by far the most annoying spec to fight against with any class. 

 

Let's see how difficult it is for people to fight my Berserker WITH DMG ON CC 😈

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Warrior isn't in the best state but you can still reach plat easily if you're good at the class. Or just play spellbreaker support, it's super weak but at least people won't expect you as a support xd. 

Playing spellbreaker as a duelist is 90% running away and spamming the same 4 spells until u find an opening. It really is super boring... 

Edited by Guirssane.7082
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8 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not being Coy. Warrior is much worse off than you think. I'll let CTS chime in with the count of warrior representation in the MATs.

Warrior's sustain is almost good enough, its damage almost good enough, and its mobility almost good enough, but when you pair that up against several specs that are WAY overtuned in comparison that just results in warrior not being good enough in reality.

Does it have a decent chassis? Sure, but its trait lines and weapons are out of date to the point where that chassis no longer matters like it once did.

Now, we can have a conversation about what the other specs need to have nerfed so that they are not overtuned and brought down to warrior level's of tuning, or we can discuss targeted buffs to warrior so that it is at least good enough at something relative to the other specs.

My take would be that Core Warrior should also be able to tank close to as much as Core Revenant can with it's utility on glass stats.

 

Most of what stops Warrior from being competent at it is cooldowns such as Balanced Stance and neglected changes like Beserker Stance. You can't find any good reason to not use Shake It Off because it's the only thing worth while that has any significant sustain on top of Full Counter.

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19 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

My take would be that Core Warrior should also be able to tank close to as much as Core Revenant can with it's utility on glass stats.

 

Most of what stops Warrior from being competent at it is cooldowns such as Balanced Stance and neglected changes like Beserker Stance. You can't find any good reason to not use Shake It Off because it's the only thing worth while that has any significant sustain on top of Full Counter.

Would all be welcome changes.

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On 1/4/2022 at 11:59 AM, JinONplay.8905 said:

You know what Anet big mistake was? instead of just nerfing the damage of CC by 50% they just over nerfed the damage by 95%

What the hell was Anet Thinking? Did they really think making CC to have have NO DAMAGE was a good idea?

The Nerf absolutely trashed warrior from a good dualist that actually felt like a warrior, into nothing more than a punching bag.

They Made warrior a "survivalist". Even as a "survivalist" it barely keeps up with the other specs that has better survivability because of it's utilities.

I'll be honest, GW2 warrior is the WORST warrior that in any MMO i have played, Hell, even Runescape warrior builds felt more like warrior than this sorry excuse.

And honestly i don't think the balance team EVER played warrior right now, if they did they NEVER would let it become this bad.

I Doubt Anet would ever revive warrior from it's grave, i never saw the developers Revive something from the dead.

Good job Anet, You just killed, spitted and pissed a once beloved class.

Also good job for Proving yourselves to be untrustworthy of doing good decisions, you barely talk to your own community or even listen to this point.

 

Well in all fairness to cmc the idea gad merit if u also took into account how much more it would hit certain classes that are heavily reliant on cc's whether it be their utility's or weapon kits, god example is ur class in question warrior where both rely on cc. Unfortunately this was not done and wasn't surprising given the lazy blanket nerf patch that occurred in Feb that took 0 accounts of individual class designs, playstyles and mechanics leaving some mechanics like shroud in a overperforming state.

Anyway I agree some damage should be returned to cc skills on classes heavily designed around having them be part of their dps rotations,

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Warrior was heavily designed to have cc be a significant source of damage within its rotation, pre feb patch Warrior damage was not overperforming vs most other classes, except for few weeks post eviscerate buff in which it was nerfed quickly.

 Over the last many years warriors heal signet values were balanced around the heal synergy Warrior had with the might from might makes right, among lesser forms of might gain. Pre feb patch Warrior sustain wasn't grossly overperforming vs the majority of the other classes.

Feb blanket patch not only reduced warriors damage values on non cc skill equally across the board but also cc skills. This means any class that only relied on cc to hit their burst due to the bulk of their damage coming from non cc skills were left with far better dps rotation than classes like Warrior who relied on the damage from cc's as part of their over all dps, and wete designed as such. 0 compensation were given to Warrior non cc skills cuz 1- the individual skill dps # would look op and 2- it was a blanket patch with 0 regards to the individual designs of each class. This left wars dps hit heavier than most classes.

Warriors sustain was dependent and for a long while balanced around its synergy with mmr, let's be real we all used it and for many years wars sustain was balanced around its healing skill values and its might gain values. Feb blanket patch hit all healing values the same so classes that relied on just the healing skill values and such untouched things as dodge, blocks, shields etc to complement the heal skills for over all sustain got hit far less than a class like Warrior who not only had its heal skills similarly reduced in value but also was hit hard when might was hard nerfed causing Warrior to take a hard nerf to its sustain in two forms of hard nerfs compared to the singular nerf to sustain most classes suffered.

Anyone with even basic knowledge of the games classes and their design could have easily predicted that reducing ALL damage on ALL ccs across all classes along side hard nerfs to healing skill values and might gain/duration would hit Warrior far harder due to its design vs other classes and their individual designs yet no compensation was given to war aside from a couple miniscule such changes that did little.

Edited by Psycoprophet.8107
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1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Warrior was heavily designed to have cc be a significant source of damage within its rotation, pre feb patch Warrior damage was not overperforming vs most other classes, except for few weeks post eviscerate buff in which it was nerfed quickly.

 Over the last many years warriors heal signet values were balanced around the heal synergy Warrior had with the might from might makes right, among lesser forms of might gain. Pre feb patch Warrior sustain wasn't grossly overperforming vs the majority of the other classes.

Feb blanket patch not only reduced warriors damage values on non cc skill equally across the board but also cc skills. This means any class that only relied on cc to hit their burst due to the bulk of their damage coming from non cc skills were left with far better dps rotation than classes like Warrior who relied on the damage from cc's as part of their over all dps, and wete designed as such. 0 compensation were given to Warrior non cc skills cuz 1- the individual skill dps # would look op and 2- it was a blanket patch with 0 regards to the individual designs of each class. This left wars dps hit heavier than most classes.

Warriors sustain was dependent and for a long while balanced around its synergy with mmr, let's be real we all used it and for many years wars sustain was balanced around its healing skill values and its might gain values. Feb blanket patch hit all healing values the same so classes that relied on just the healing skill values and such untouched things as dodge,blocks,shields etc to complement the heal skills for over all sustain got hot far less than a class like Warrior who not only had its heal skills similarly reduced in value but also was hit hard when might was hard nerfed causing Warrior to take a hard nerf to its sustain in to forms of hard nerfs compared to the singular nerf to sustain most classes suffered.

Anyone with even basic knowledge of the games classes and their design could have easily predicted that reducing ALL damage on ALL ccs across all classes along side hard nerfs to healing skill values and might gain/duration would hit Warrior far harder due to its design vs other classes and their individual designs yet no compensation was given to war aside from a couple miniscule surcharges that did little.

They did relent on MMR some though. What they need to do now is raise the might on MBT from 1 to 2 per pulse and raise the might on Eviscerate and Decapitate from 1 to 3, then maybe the sustain will be in a better spot.

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31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They did relent on MMR some though. What they need to do now is raise the might on MBT from 1 to 2 per pulse and raise the might on Eviscerate and Decapitate from 1 to 3, then maybe the sustain will be in a better spot.

Yeah they did, that was one of the miniscule changes 8 was referring to, definitely wasn't enough tho imo.

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On 1/5/2022 at 12:43 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'd rather the other classes not get kneecapped by the amount they need to be for warrior in it's current state to be equally tuned.

This.

A little empathy says that if more people had to jump the same hurdles warrior has to, they'd be just as inclined to opt out of doing that as some of the warrior players have.

Its not worth nuking a playerbase that already feels theyve been nuked/dont need nuking just so the warriors have an equal playing field (And further, I'd bet that people who want everything else tapped down would more often than not be surprised that that tapping would include some of their favorite mechanics/skills.)

 It would be easier for everyone to just look at warrior(core and zerker, spellbreaker is fine), ele (its glass variants, weaver is fine, and support tempest is also fine) and mesmer (chronomancer and possibly core, mirage is fine)  and make a couple of changes to those, then watch what happens for a month. if the game doesn't explode and they return to play, then great. if it does, then whittle it down a bit until it fits. 

Send the mains of those classes some of those email surveys, based on their playtime ratios. See what they think and figure out why they may think it. This shouldn't be this hard.  

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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I dislike that players keep pegging all the changes the devs make on very certain things, like forum whining. You do realise they collect mountains of data metrics in real-time from the game, right? They know whether or not something is overperforming, they don't need your "gut feeling".

 

Pre-nerf Warrior was infamous for things like going into Rampage and killing someone before they could ever respond. This is why CC got nerfed so hard; it was mainly Warrior.

 

I understand the reluctance to accept this, but if you've ever played an MMO you'd understand just how busted GW2 was. Before the February patch there was a hundred-and-one ways to roll your opponent without them ever fighting back (instant kills, CC chaining with big damage, and so on), from various classes, and in a competitive mode taking away your enemy's ability to compete is very bad for the game.

 

That said I do agree damage needs to be added back to their Hammer, and somewhat to Rampage. Someone suggested before that their CC skills should just never crit, and I think that's ideal.

 

Maybe add a trait for it, similar to Necro's Fear.

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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45 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I dislike that players keep pegging all the changes the devs make on very certain things, like forum whining. You do realise they collect mountains of data metrics in real-time from the game, right? They know whether or not something is overperforming, they don't need your "gut feeling".

I don't really care one way or the other whether the changes to warrior were made because of forum whining or an interpretation of metrics. The action they took to respond to that data degraded the ability to play warrior competitively, and that is observable through examining what they are expected to do to fight and the tools they currently have to attempt to do that on two of the warrior variants. The fact that it has dropped off the board entirely when it comes to class picks for high level tournaments attests to that. 


They may know whether things are being overplayed, sure, but when the data is more nuanced they reach conclusions like this.

Quote

Berserker has been in a great place with strong support, power, and condition builds that are successful in all content.

- Anet 29th April 2021.

The developers are subject to the same errors and tendencies to overlook and misinterpret that we are, so gut feeling or not, they need our input because the game is made for us, with the purpose that we enjoy playing it. Some of that input may be based on emotion rather than a consideration of facts or mechanics, but that input still needs to be present (and parsed/discarded based on whether it aligns with an actual issue.)

45 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

 in a competitive mode taking away your enemy's ability to compete is very bad for the game.

U rite. Hence the creation of this conversation. It wasn't right for rampage, and this other extreme ain't right either. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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Mfw i read people saying that warriors "aren't as bad as warrior mains make them out to be" and yet everyone that has a modicum of pvp experiences flatly agrees that the entire class is dead. 

Use your brain; A class that has the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the entire game, that needs to set up every single attack to have a chance at landing it and the damage isn't even comparable in the slightest to any of any other power class

Power Shiro can land you an upfront frontloaded burst of 20k+ in a few seconds flat.

 Core Rangers can do almost as much damage as a Power Shiro while having a pet that constantly draws out rolls and other defensives. 

 Daredevils are superior roamers with way better utility and pressure.

 Holosmiths have five times as much pressure output while also having better burst.

Reapers have more utility, sustain and survivability.

What DOES warrior excel in? Absolutely nothing. It's only redeeming grace? Battle Standard to finish people off before the enemy support can pick the downed target back up. That's it. 

The saddest thing? It'll never change. Anet will spend the very very few resources allocated to warriors to try and balance Bladetrash, a class that has already been declared dead on arrival. 

Jolly good! 👍

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9 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I dislike that players keep pegging all the changes the devs make on very certain things, like forum whining. You do realise they collect mountains of data metrics in real-time from the game, right? They know whether or not something is overperforming, they don't need your "gut feeling".

 

Pre-nerf Warrior was infamous for things like going into Rampage and killing someone before they could ever respond. This is why CC got nerfed so hard; it was mainly Warrior.

 

I understand the reluctance to accept this, but if you've ever played an MMO you'd understand just how busted GW2 was. Before the February patch there was a hundred-and-one ways to roll your opponent without them ever fighting back (instant kills, CC chaining with big damage, and so on), from various classes, and in a competitive mode taking away your enemy's ability to compete is very bad for the game.

 

That said I do agree damage needs to be added back to their Hammer, and somewhat to Rampage. Someone suggested before that their CC skills should just never crit, and I think that's ideal.

 

Maybe add a trait for it, similar to Necro's Fear.

Wouldn't the response to something like Rampage stun locking people be to deal with Rampage instead of nerfing literally every CC in the game? Stability uptime was higher and stun breaks had lower CDs pre Feb, so this idea that warrior was this unstoppable bulldozer that didn't let you move is just ridiculous without even considering how other classes could do similar things. Classes had tons of defensive tools to get around eating CC but that CC did damage so it wasn't just a slap on the wrist to eat a Shield Bash and stun break.

 

As stated countless times, warrior has to set up its attacks with extremely telegraphed CC so of course they will rely on bullying more than other classes, but the flip side is that you're at fault for eating it. There's no instant cast nonsense like Steal or Mantra of Distraction.

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18 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

That said I do agree damage needs to be added back to their Hammer, and somewhat to Rampage. Someone suggested before that their CC skills should just never crit, and I think that's ideal.

 

Maybe add a trait for it, similar to Necro's Fear.

We have Body Blow, but it is one bleed stack and weakness. One. Bleed. Stack. 

We've been asking for essentially a warrior version of Lightening Rod. Though an idea that has been passed back and forth with @Grand Marshal.4098 and myself would be for the trait to cause CC's to deal damage relative to their breakbar damages that can't crit. For example a 1s daze would be 1k, but a 4s knockdown would be 4k.

So instead of something like Pommel Bash doing the same damage as a backbreaker because of the trait, they do relative damage based on the duration of the CC. This wouldn't be some super OP change and would be a great QOL update for warrior.

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