Bring back half of the orignal damage from CC of Warriors

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 1/6/2022 at 5:53 PM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Warriors could use some buffs, but not nearly as much as some commentators here would like to think. Common bias that refuses to account for cumulative effects.

I'm interested in what you think about this. Elaborate. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Stunchain war is oppressive and frustrating.

Having the damage back after have been on both sides of the stick is a no from me.

I imagine some of the guys realized they can keep people chain stunned, launched, and knockdown and found it to be funny, but were not getting the microscopic ttk that they were hoping for.

I've been on the receiving end from multicoloredhipsters stunlock war as a reminder, and confirmation that some are good and some are bad.

Some of the better NA pvp warrior haunt the FFA more than anything.

It's not that war is bad, a few interactions have changed and some won't adapt.

I want to note the bold here and that:

* Crab has a point. Swift Blade is also working that hammer properly. There -are- some core wars using it well. 

* Multicoloredhipster is probably just as frustrated playing the hammer as anyone on the receiving end, which is the whole point they're trying to make. 

* I don't particularly think that damage back on all CC is the solution. I agree that, as noted, "some interactions have changed." Making every hit of hammer and utilities that set it up might not be the right way to go when it comes to this. 

*I disagree and still think warrior is bad, because it's too easily shut down. 

 

Again, I think it would be better to add a bit of active mitigation to their glassier options. Very minor cooldown reductions to

•  berserker stance
• endure pain
• shield stance
• shake it off

that would be -just- enough to enable warriors running axe/shield or skullgrinder condi would be more prudent than just buffing hammer (which is in effect just frustrating the people on the receiving end as well rather than making it more flexible for the warrior.) I don't think people are lamenting that hammer isn't good enough, it's more the case that they're lamenting only being able to play hammer and stall the game if they want to live at all.  

Warrior -is- in a bad spot, but they don't need much to do well. They have the damage (if they spec glass) but lack avenues to deliver it (because speccing glass is shut down for too long by too much). 5 second cd reductions on the above (10 in the case of shake it off) would be plenty, and would encourage people to default less to hammer. 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I want to note the bold here and that:

* Multicoloredhipster is probably just as frustrated playing the hammer as anyone on the receiving end, which is the whole point they're trying to make. 

Hated feeds my purpose, it shall fuel you, also.

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

Again, I think it would be better to add a bit of active mitigation to their glassier options. Very minor cooldown reductions to

•  berserker stance
• endure pain
• shield stance
• shake it off

 

Yet I find myself in full agreement with this.

So much so that i'm willing to admit that the lustration I enact is only possible thanks to CMC's righteous changes, such as increasing all those CD's listed, and more.

 

Some stunbreaks like "SiO" now take about 15% of the entirety of an Unranked match to recharge once. Any other Stunbreak still takes longer to recharge compared to before.

Another important facet to consider is global damage. Across all professions. That also got reduced pretty substantially through CMC's holy work. After nearly 2 year's deliberation, i've deduced that the typical modern meta Strength Warrior does about the same damage with Berserker stats now as it did with Demolishers pre 2/25/2020. 

 

So if everything does less damage to me and stunbreaks are few and far between, what's to stop anyone from loading up on sustain and CC to then join the great war against time itself? besides dopamine of course but that's too obvious

 

Anyway; this would be a nerf to the builds I play, but as one of CMC's faithful, I welcome these blessings. 🙏

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

19 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Hated feeds my purpose, it shall fuel you, also.

Already playing glass zerker out of spite~

If I don't get to play, anybody who doesn't know how to counter war gets to have 0 HP. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261
brb, RPing as a nubstomper

[Vinny.7260]

27 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Already playing glass zerker out of spite~

If I don't get to play, anybody who doesn't know how to counter war gets to have 0 HP. 

Or sneezes weakness on you and ruins your entire build.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Vinny.7260

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

54 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Or sneezes weakness on you and ruins your entire build.

The only counter for two brain cells is one brain cell. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The only counter for two brain cells is one brain cell. 

Or blind for half a brain cell right?

[Crinn.7864]

On 1/10/2022 at 3:07 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

* I don't particularly think that damage back on all CC is the solution. I agree that, as noted, "some interactions have changed." Making every hit of hammer and utilities that set it up might not be the right way to go when it comes to this. 

 

 

No, they should absolutely return the damage to all CC weapons skills. That change was stupid then, and is still stupid now. We can debate the merits of returning damage to utility CCs.

[Axl.8924]

On 1/10/2022 at 9:07 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I want to note the bold here and that:

* Crab has a point. Swift Blade is also working that hammer properly. There -are- some core wars using it well. 

* Multicoloredhipster is probably just as frustrated playing the hammer as anyone on the receiving end, which is the whole point they're trying to make. 

* I don't particularly think that damage back on all CC is the solution. I agree that, as noted, "some interactions have changed." Making every hit of hammer and utilities that set it up might not be the right way to go when it comes to this. 

*I disagree and still think warrior is bad, because it's too easily shut down. 

 

Again, I think it would be better to add a bit of active mitigation to their glassier options. Very minor cooldown reductions to

•  berserker stance
• endure pain
• shield stance
• shake it off

that would be -just- enough to enable warriors running axe/shield or skullgrinder condi would be more prudent than just buffing hammer (which is in effect just frustrating the people on the receiving end as well rather than making it more flexible for the warrior.) I don't think people are lamenting that hammer isn't good enough, it's more the case that they're lamenting only being able to play hammer and stall the game if they want to live at all.  

Warrior -is- in a bad spot, but they don't need much to do well. They have the damage (if they spec glass) but lack avenues to deliver it (because speccing glass is shut down for too long by too much). 5 second cd reductions on the above (10 in the case of shake it off) would be plenty, and would encourage people to default less to hammer. 

 

 

When i was watching ajaxx it seemed like even with the stalling in hte end most of the time resulted in death at hammer. He was eating lots of hits on his norn warr and even when he did push peeps off point in the end it  was either: He ran away and hope he survives or die trying to run away because its very glassy for dmg it does on hammer, so i agree something def needs to be improved for war not sure since i don't main one.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Dusty.6084]

Lol people think War was played for warhammer + GS? That was just stalling until rampage was off cooldown. 

[Vancho.8750]

20 hours ago, Dusty.6084 said:

Lol people think War was played for warhammer + GS? That was just stalling until rampage was off cooldown. 

The fun bit is that only Rampage could kill anything at all even in the most powercrept meta since it wasn't only the damage that was sky high but also defense options to the point that you can take a dumb kitten build and just do pve rotation but on defensive buttons and win.
If you think about it the sidenodes never have duel to the death if there there isn't warrior in the meta, it was either bunkers or some kind of FOTM cheese that couldn't be countered. Even the mighty Spelbreaker was susceptible to ganks, everything after the heavy handed nerfs has been swinging to bunkers or cheese.

[Zexanima.7851]

Quote

 

TL;DR

As things are right now you can play warrior, you can even play warrior well. In most every scenario though warrior will be at a disadvantage and there will be something that can do the job warrior is doing, but better. Something will need to change to make warrior relevant again. One option is bringing back damage on CC for warrior. I don't think this is a bad solution but it's not the only solution. We'll have to wait until the dust settles after EoD release to start really making any informed suggestions. For all we know that could fix all the issues (I doubt it).

 

 

I think people are confusing "warriors are not in a bad place" with "there are people who are really good with warrior". Pretty much any profession/build regardless of how well it's doing will have players that will clean your clock with it just because they put so much practice into it. That doesn't mean its doing good, just that the player is good with it. 

 

You get these players in a conquest match and they may whip you a time or two in a fight but overall their impact on the game will be rather low compared to a meta profession/build. Even dueling over a side node warriors are not really passible.  If you have two teams of similar skill level all running meta professions/builds then throw a warrior in the mix, that warrior will seem next to useless.

 

What made warriors dangerous was their sustain, control, and high moments of burst damage. Which in a box sounds OP but now days these strengths are non-existent or overshadowed by their weaknesses. Their lack of mobility and telegraphed animations are pretty huge weaknesses but that's fine as every profession should have at least 1-2 clear weaknesses. This kind of pigeon holes them into what roles they can play so they need to have respectable builds in those roles. Their sustain is still decent but middle of the pack at best. They still have their control but capitalizing on that has become much more difficult. 

 

This isn't in a vacuum either. You have to consider how other professions have changed and where that puts warrior. Many meta builds will out sustain you either through raw sustain or damage prevention. Many builds will out burst you with half the risk/effort. Most builds will out rotate you. Many builds will out do warrior in many of it's own key categories at once while directly countering it. If other professions can do what warrior does better and/or can contribute better to the win condition then that means warrior just isn't good. 

 

Lets just do some comparisons to things you're most likely to see these days;

 

• D/P Daredevil: Any form of warrior are a non-issue for this build. The only thing warrior's have in their kit that's even slightly problematic is spellbreaker's mage bane. Even then they would just need to keep up blinds until they can stealth again. Almost every tool in their kit will shut down warrior; blinds, interrupts, mobility (teleports, long range dodge, perma-swiftness), ranged pressure (shortbow)

 

Power Herald: This has always had the advantage against warrior when played correctly. They compete with you in CC, outclass you in mobility, WAY outclass you in burst, and generally have all the tools needed to make warrior a non-issue. Even power renegade is a tough fight, though much more even than Herald.

 

Core Necro/Power Reaper: This is probably warriors best target in the current meta. With that being said there are better professions out there now days for taking out a necro.  It's a pain as you'll still have to constantly be swapping to cleanse weakness/chill/fear but it's very winnable. About the only time a necro should get you is if they catch you outnumbered and Litch you with your pants down. 

 

Holosmith: Better warrior. Warrior arguably does better against condi, but in every other category Holosmith outshines you. More damage, more utility, more mobility, better sustain (condi aside), better cleave, melee AND ranged pressure, comparable CC, more versatile shield, better immune, stealth, ect ect. Very few scenarios in which I can think of having a warrior over a holosmith on the team would be better. 

 

Fire Weaver: This matchup will seem even at first but they will almost always pull ahead of a warrior. Even if you swap weapons religiously to cleanse and hang on to your "Shake it Off!" for dear life they will still chip you down. The amount of sustained pressure coupled with immunity frames and CC will make it hard for you to line up any meaningful damage. Often this will just be draw but weaver has the higher potential to win if they interrupt your heals properly and keep the pressure on.

 

Valk Ranger: Once again, better warrior. They are way more tanky than you, burst is better than warriors, sustained damage is better than warriors through their pet, impossible to lock down if played correctly, stealth access, many evade frames, comparable CC. They are much more susceptible to ganks than warrior but you'll probably be dead before that can happen. Valk ranger in a lot of ways (not all) plays like what you would expect from a warrior

 

Shout Guard: I only included this because you'll see them fairly often. In a 1v1, sure, warrior will win. You won't see them in that scenario though, it'll be in team fights. Even a side noder/duelist will need to participate in team fights at some point. When you do team fight as warrior and they have a shout guard, you might as well just go sit on an empty node instead. With the stability/stun breaks, aegis, line of warding, and general healing output they will make it kitten near impossible for you to impact a team fight in any way. The best you can hope to do is clear aegis with whirlwind and get off the occasional breaching strike.

 

I think that covers a lot of the meta classes you'll see. The big picture I'm getting at with all this is;

 

As things are right now you can play warrior, you can even play warrior well. In most every scenario though warrior will be at a disadvantage and there will be something that can do the job warrior is doing, but better. Something will need to change to make warrior relevant again. One option is bringing back damage on CC for warrior. I don't think this is a bad solution but it's not the only solution. We'll have to wait until the dust settles after EoD release to start really making any informed suggestions. For all we know that could fix all the issues (I doubt it).

 

Why take a support warrior when you can have a shout guard? Why take a duelist spellbreaker when you can have a fire weaver or valk ranger? Why take a dps berserker when you can have a holosmith, reaper, or rev?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Zexanima.7851

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 hours ago, Zexanima.7851 said:

 

I think people are confusing "warriors are not in a bad place" with "there are people who are really good with warrior". Pretty much any profession/build regardless of how well it's doing will have players that will clean your clock with it just because they put so much practice into it. That doesn't mean its doing good, just that the player is good with it. 

 

You get these players in a conquest match and they may whip you a time or two in a fight but overall their impact on the game will be rather low compared to a meta profession/build. Even dueling over a side node warriors are not really passible.  If you have two teams of similar skill level all running meta professions/builds then throw a warrior in the mix, that warrior will seem next to useless.

 

What made warriors dangerous was their sustain, control, and high moments of burst damage. Which in a box sounds OP but now days these strengths are non-existent or overshadowed by their weaknesses. Their lack of mobility and telegraphed animations are pretty huge weaknesses but that's fine as every profession should have at least 1-2 clear weaknesses. This kind of pigeon holes them into what roles they can play so they need to have respectable builds in those roles. Their sustain is still decent but middle of the pack at best. They still have their control but capitalizing on that has become much more difficult. 

 

This isn't in a vacuum either. You have to consider how other professions have changed and where that puts warrior. Many meta builds will out sustain you either through raw sustain or damage prevention. Many builds will out burst you with half the risk/effort. Most builds will out rotate you. Many builds will out do warrior in many of it's own key categories at once while directly countering it. If other professions can do what warrior does better and/or can contribute better to the win condition then that means warrior just isn't good. 

 

Lets just do some comparisons to things you're most likely to see these days;

 

• D/P Daredevil: Any form of warrior are a non-issue for this build. The only thing warrior's have in their kit that's even slightly problematic is spellbreaker's mage bane. Even then they would just need to keep up blinds until they can stealth again. Almost every tool in their kit will shut down warrior; blinds, interrupts, mobility (teleports, long range dodge, perma-swiftness), ranged pressure (shortbow)

 

Power Herald: This has always had the advantage against warrior when played correctly. They compete with you in CC, outclass you in mobility, WAY outclass you in burst, and generally have all the tools needed to make warrior a non-issue. Even power renegade is a tough fight, though much more even than Herald.

 

Core Necro/Power Reaper: This is probably warriors best target in the current meta. With that being said there are better professions out there now days for taking out a necro.  It's a pain as you'll still have to constantly be swapping to cleanse weakness/chill/fear but it's very winnable. About the only time a necro should get you is if they catch you outnumbered and Litch you with your pants down. 

 

Holosmith: Better warrior. Warrior arguably does better against condi, but in every other category Holosmith outshines you. More damage, more utility, more mobility, better sustain (condi aside), better cleave, melee AND ranged pressure, comparable CC, more versatile shield, better immune, stealth, ect ect. Very few scenarios in which I can think of having a warrior over a holosmith on the team would be better. 

 

Fire Weaver: This matchup will seem even at first but they will almost always pull ahead of a warrior. Even if you swap weapons religiously to cleanse and hang on to your "Shake it Off!" for dear life they will still chip you down. The amount of sustained pressure coupled with immunity frames and CC will make it hard for you to line up any meaningful damage. Often this will just be draw but weaver has the higher potential to win if they interrupt your heals properly and keep the pressure on.

 

Valk Ranger: Once again, better warrior. They are way more tanky than you, burst is better than warriors, sustained damage is better than warriors through their pet, impossible to lock down if played correctly, stealth access, many evade frames, comparable CC. They are much more susceptible to ganks than warrior but you'll probably be dead before that can happen. Valk ranger in a lot of ways (not all) plays like what you would expect from a warrior

 

Shout Guard: I only included this because you'll see them fairly often. In a 1v1, sure, warrior will win. You won't see them in that scenario though, it'll be in team fights. Even a side noder/duelist will need to participate in team fights at some point. When you do team fight as warrior and they have a shout guard, you might as well just go sit on an empty node instead. With the stability/stun breaks, aegis, line of warding, and general healing output they will make it kitten near impossible for you to impact a team fight in any way. The best you can hope to do is clear aegis with whirlwind and get off the occasional breaching strike.

 

I think that covers a lot of the meta classes you'll see. The big picture I'm getting at with all this is;

 

As things are right now you can play warrior, you can even play warrior well. In most every scenario though warrior will be at a disadvantage and there will be something that can do the job warrior is doing, but better. Something will need to change to make warrior relevant again. One option is bringing back damage on CC for warrior. I don't think this is a bad solution but it's not the only solution. We'll have to wait until the dust settles after EoD release to start really making any informed suggestions. For all we know that could fix all the issues (I doubt it).

 

Why take a support warrior when you can have a shout guard? Why take a duelist spellbreaker when you can have a fire weaver or valk ranger? Why take a dps berserker when you can have a holosmith, reaper, or rev?

 

 

 

 

 

There isn't an emoji for "standing ovation" so I had to settle for the purple trophy thingy.  Very well said, @Zexanima.7851. Thank you for all the time you put into that post.

 

@Cal Cohen.2358@Cal Cohen.3527 please listen! 

[Arheundel.6451]

On 1/10/2022 at 12:09 PM, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Playing it and understanding it are two completely different things. The skills I brought up were just examples of the point I was making about people and their respective class biases, be they in favor of their liked classes or against their disliked ones. 

 

Arguing warrior is alright and that people need to just 'git gud' because you can stall out with Spellbreaker when the overwhelming majority of the class' skills are just bad is terribly ignorant. 

Really...the gw2 community does that with any class, and warrior mains are part of the community. Not pointing fingers in your direction but it's common to see comments like :" ele need no buffs...because celestial d/d in 2012 blah blah" , literally you can't really have a discussion on the forums, majority of comments are emotionally invested and people simply wish not to deal with that or that profession and if that means asking to gut every single thing on that class....players here will do just that

[Arheundel.6451]

delete copy

Edited January 15, 2022 by Arheundel.6451

[Arheundel.6451]

delete copy

Edited January 15, 2022 by Arheundel.6451