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Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?


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Perma stealth thief is just a player you literally don't interact with and hold W away from, which is a running theme in this game. Builds like this should be HOTFIXED by developers, not allowed to fester for 4+ years.

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Yeah switch maps, because anet doesn't care about stealth abuse until it affects their pve stuff, and it's not worth to stress over it's stupidity.

What counters? Deadeye's elite removes revealed and revealed isn't exactly a common debuff most classes have(engineer + DH + ranger + rev only iirc?). Do you want me to afk by the reveal scanner thing

Well they have rev soloing bosses with torment and then they went and buffed torment for pve.. so they probably just don't care in general anymore.   I mean they put in reveal on all enemies

19 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

 anet should just limit portal range heavily, so it gets harder to ab-use it.

yeah   ive seen thiefs hide in Ospreys palace outer cirlce ,but as soon as they are alone   they place the portal, go to the camp above or below, take it and take supplies to build a catapult.   And they go back into the outer cirlce thanks to the portal

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24 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

yeah   ive seen thiefs hide in Ospreys palace outer cirlce ,but as soon as they are alone   they place the portal, go to the camp above or below, take it and take supplies to build a catapult.   And they go back into the outer cirlce thanks to the portal


That's a lot to do in the timer for portal. 
 

I saw a thief hiding in Osprey's recently and they sat around for 20 minutes or so. I scouted and made sure there weren't enemies coming to take a portal. Eventually they got bored and left the keep (visually jumped out and stayed too long outside keep to have a portal back inside). 
 

Portal into keeps are not really the biggest issue with permastealth gameplay. Imo the biggest issue is that it is entirely safe and boring to fight against. 

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On 1/4/2022 at 9:49 PM, Virdo.1540 said:

We recently have trouble on our server with fighting against groups including multiple thiefs. If one wall is open, they will wait for hours until they can get their friends back in to destroy inner wall (t3 keeps) and we havent found a way to deal with them.

 

Traps to Reveal arent triggering or are simply running out with mega ports of thiefs.

Skill-Reveals are never hitting, if yes,  port through the whole keep -> invisible again

 

And permanently having people camp in the lord room doesnt work either, because after a little bit waiting, the enemy group gets simply bigger. 

 

Are people having any advice what to do against them?


If you think that's obnoxious, You haven't reached the best part about Thief. When End of Dragons hits, Thief will be it's most powerful, and most over performing yet in pvp and Wvw. Why? Because Anet thought it was a good idea to give the new elite spec, Specter, Shroud. If you have played necromancer at any capacity, You'll know what this means. If not? Allow me to explain. Necromancer Only. And I mean ONLY form of defense is shroud. Not only does shroud give you an innate ability to mitigate 50% of enemy damage. It also act as a second health bar. So If you have 20k life force, that also means you have 20k health that is protecting your real health. Ok? So Imagine how busted this will be with at thief, who already have Skills like shadow step and perma stealth? Oh man, If you can't handle them before, then god help you now, because you will never beat them. You just won't. They'll be the ultimate duelist mesmers and spellbreakers wish they were. Shroud will protect them from harm, since their variant of the life force system protects them. Oh, and get this. While shroud is protecting them, Their cooldown for their skills will still tick down. So once their first layer of defense goes down, They'll start to use other defenses as well. Lets be honest, All of this requires a high skilling ceiling. But once a player masters that, and trust me. They will master it. Specter will be near unstoppable.

Any thief who tells you the Perma stealth nonesense is a "Git good" Problem are morons. Plain and simple. Look at it this way, if your class you love the most is over performing, would YOU want it to be nerfed?

Edited by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267
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43 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Say what now ?
As far as I remember the only stability thief has access to is blinding powder.

Probably he/she/they meant perma-evade. 

I agree Shadow Meld and Dagger Storm are the only thing it needs fixing at this point in the case of the thief.  Deadeye is not as static as it needs that elite and thief is not that weak that needs the "oh shieee!" button.

Other than that Stealth in general needs other PvP games treatment, it needs a counter/tradeoff in the mechanic itself. Not counting thief, any class which get access to consistent stealth like Trap DH, Druid, etc... Automatically becomes a supper annoying build to deal with. 

 

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5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I agree Shadow Meld and Dagger Storm are the only thing it needs fixing at this point in the case of the thief.  Deadeye is not as static as it needs that elite and thief is not that weak that needs the "oh shieee!" button.

I find daggerstorm fine, it has a huge tell, and the only real danger is reflected projectiles

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5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Probably he/she/they meant perma-evade. 

I agree Shadow Meld and Dagger Storm are the only thing it needs fixing at this point in the case of the thief.  Deadeye is not as static as it needs that elite and thief is not that weak that needs the "oh shieee!" button.

Other than that Stealth in general needs other PvP games treatment, it needs a counter/tradeoff in the mechanic itself. Not counting thief, any class which get access to consistent stealth like Trap DH, Druid, etc... Automatically becomes a supper annoying build to deal with. 

 

I still think they need to change Shadow Meld into something that lets DE be static for half a minute, like something to let them post up on a point with Kneel or to roll over Snipers Cover a few times. There's Silent Scope stealth which is already kind of dumb but then there's also Stolen Skill stealth which can even be sat on and then Snipers Scover+Leap. I'd rather be able to mitigate for a few seconds and hit back then try to scramble in stealth and get tagged anyway and have to try to break out. 

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I read a ton of interesting comments here.

I must agree with what you guys are saying.

Back in the day of GW1 was the mesmer who was the nightmare to deal with, now it's thieves.

I agree with you lot. This game handles stealth very poorly; which in fact isn't stealth at all, it is invisibility.

Let's not confuse things.

 

Camouflage is a good way to describe stealth... and that's what thieves should have got in this game, NOT invisibility.

They should get camo through skills, Runes and Sigils, and maybe even through gear.

 

They should have a percentage of blending to the environment from 10% to 90%.

Hard to spot, and able to blend with environment.

 

What they got instead was 100% invisibility.

I personally would remove this completely from the game, unless it was as I mentioned, Camouflage.

 

In real life no one goes invisible.

Ninjas use camo and the shadows, same as snipers and rangers that also use the background to blend in.

We know this is a fantasy game, where almost everything is possible.

But giving any class complete invisibility it's just a complete and utter pain in the backside.

 

I have seen a lot of fights against thieves, having being an involuntary victim of it myself, as they go invisible and wait hours if necessary to get that one kill to an unaware passers-by.

Now, regardless of my personal sentiments towards that sort of player, I'll keep it simple, it just simply should not exist in this game.

 

I have about 5 thieves, because of Role Playing purposes, but I personally effing hate them with all my being.

 

I urge all of you to make a petition to ANet and ask them to replace invisibility with Camouflage, and have a percentage according to gear and upgrades.

That way is fair for everybody.

 

We can all agree that invisibility has no place in this game, and it's just a nightmare to deal with, especially with contested WP in WvW, when these creatures decide to harrass Keep guards for hours and hours on end just for the sake of it.

 

At least with Camo, even at 90% Max, we'd have a chance to see them if we have good eye.

 

Blending into the environment at least it's not being totally invisible.

They already have a ton of shadowsteps, DPS, speed, and blindness causing conditions.

That's Enough!!!

 

In return of losing invisibility, their deadeye rifles could get a much longer range... much much longer range, in order to be proper snipers as intended... yet have a chance of being spotted.

 

So please ANet, replace invisibility with camo.

 

Edited by SoulGuardian.6203
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49 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

They already have a ton of shadowsteps, DPS, speed, and blindness causing conditions.

That's [more than] Enough!!

 

Indeed. Bring back Jon Peters - all .. most .. some is forgiven!

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On 1/7/2022 at 5:14 AM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Perma stealth thief is just a player you literally don't interact with and hold W away from, which is a running theme in this game. Builds like this should be HOTFIXED by developers, not allowed to fester for 4+ years.


Lets not make use of any of the many counters to it though ! Lets ask for nerfs instead !

Edited by Caedmon.6798
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1 hour ago, Caedmon.6798 said:


Lets not make use of any of the many counters to it though ! Lets ask for nerfs instead !

What counters? Deadeye's elite removes revealed and revealed isn't exactly a common debuff most classes have(engineer + DH + ranger + rev only iirc?). Do you want me to afk by the reveal scanner things in WvW? Sure, then the thief just walks away from me. Assuming the thief isn't deadeye, they have a million evades and gap closers to instantly teleport across the map away from me.

Exciting gameplay. 

Edited by Shiyo.3578
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1 hour ago, Caedmon.6798 said:


Lets not make use of any of the many counters to it though ! Lets ask for nerfs instead !

Oh you mean Revealed right? A debuff that's not even baked into half of the core profession's kit, and not that many to begin with? Or maybe you're talking about aoeing them down because you somehow think that thief is going to stay in one place thoughout their stealth duration.

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20 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

What counters? Deadeye's elite removes revealed and revealed isn't exactly a common debuff most classes have(engineer + DH + ranger + rev only iirc?). Do you want me to afk by the reveal scanner things in WvW? Sure, then the thief just walks away from me. Assuming the thief isn't deadeye, they have a million evades and gap closers to instantly teleport across the map away from me.

Exciting gameplay. 

 
Because you are unable to time the reveal doesnt mean its broke,its on you really. Same for every counter vs every other class. And a "Million" evades,that just shows you dont know how De plays,they have 2 dodges,3 if they pop agi util for 50% energy gain on a 30 sec cd.

Theres also more counters as reveal only. You should know that..if you know how to play.
 

Edited by Caedmon.6798
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14 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

 
Because you are unable to time the reveal doesnt mean its broke,its on you really. Same for every counter vs every other class. And a "Million" evades,that just shows you dont know how De plays,they have 2 dodges,3 if they pop agi util for 50% energy gain on a 30 sec cd.

Theres also more counters as reveal only. You should now that..if you know how to play.
 

Ok genius, educate us. Since you seems like you know all about allll about thief. How DO we counter stealth? How do you prevent them from getting away from you the very moment you get close to them? If you know, tell us. Instead of wasting our time telling us we don't know jack kitten. I REALLY look foward to your answer.

Edited by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267
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26 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Because you are unable to time the reveal doesnt mean its broke,its on you really. Same for every counter vs every other class. And a "Million" evades,that just shows you dont know how De plays,they have 2 dodges,3 if they pop agi util for 50% energy gain on a 30 sec cd.

"Assuming they aren't DE, they have tons of evades/gap closers". You missed the "Assuming they aren't DE" part. I actually mained thief until recently, so I know thief pretty well. The class is busted beyond belief.

I know what the counter is, it's not logging into the game. Best counter ever.

Edited by Shiyo.3578
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3 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

"Assuming they aren't DE, they have tons of evades/gap closers". You missed the "Assuming they aren't DE" part. I actually mained thief until recently, so I know thief pretty well. The class is busted beyond belief.

I know what the counter is, it's not logging into the game. Best counter ever.

If it's busted, why isn't everyone playing it and why is no one asking for it? 

 

3 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

 Ok genius....How do you prevent them from getting away from you the very moment you get close to them?

They have stealth to get away from you, that's the purpose of it, who knew? I usually just keep hitting the other thief, or whoever went stealth, you'll probably know where they're at even if they think they're slick. Or I'll pull and try to lock down before they think of bouncing out. It actually doesn't take a genius to do the obvious but whatever. 

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2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

If it's busted, why isn't everyone playing it and why is no one asking for it? 

 

They have stealth to get away from you, that's the purpose of it, who knew? I usually just keep hitting the other thief, or whoever went stealth, you'll probably know where they're at even if they think they're slick. Or I'll pull and try to lock down before they think of bouncing out. It actually doesn't take a genius to do the obvious but whatever. 

Here I come barging in again. Before I begin to nitpick at what you're saying and I qouted, I need to commend your earlier point about Meld and Scope. I think that is a suggestion that makes alot of sense, because as you point out, Scope is taking on part of the role one would assume Meld to have. Most issues with DE mechanics come from what Meld and Scope do ontop of other things like SA traits. However, that is also relevant for what you say here.

It seems like your experience of meeting Thieves differ quite alot from other people. I don't know why that is, but my best guess is that this differs quite wildly between EU and NA servers as well as between tiers and servers themselves. Not knowing where you play, what I've seen EU is more governed by potential and NA more by behaviour. NA's solo-ish roaming scene at least used to be more healthy as a result but it was also a case of what was being done trumphed what could be done and that's not how theory works. Possibly recent EU transfers to NA has changed that a bit (and vice versa) making EU behaviours more and more common. That may not be good for health, but is for theory. Either way, me and alot of people here see the Thief as the most populated small-scale class. It surprises me when I see people complain about Rangers for example since I tend to see them less and I tend to see them die more to larger groups ungentlemanly chasing them down. They may be quick as roamers, but not quick enough as Thieves to escape so much more.

Another thing I've brought up before is that popular Thief builds gain so much from stealth that there is little variation in how they are setup. That is a likely reason why there is little discussion about Thief builds. There seems to be a shared understanding within the class that power is powerful enough, condi is cheesy and hybrid isn't worth it (mainly because few people play it in role-coordinated groups; Thief is actually a class that can gain alot from eg., Celestial stats but few people use the class for the purposes where that can be useful and as such never use it where that can be useful - it's a bit of an absurd tangent, but bare with me).

That leads into that last part of the qoute. The issue has never been that Thieves have stealth to get away. It isn't even an issue about whether Thieves should ambush. Further more, it's not about how well an idea of Meld for long stealths fits WvW or the repeated concerns about "perma stealth". That can be questioned, but itsn't really a big problem. It is rather the totals of engagement and disengagement opportunities afforded to the class through how much they gain from their stealth, its interactions and the other unique class mechanics.

Meld and Scope serves one example of that where the current mechanics can be applied to your example. You can Meld to beat the reveals, you can Rifle-port for initative, stealth with dodge and attack from stealth to avoid no-scope damage, reveals and the need to use initiative or utilities on things that come your way. There are similar interactions between stealths and steals, stealths and utility ports or stealths, initative and traits or other utilities.

Add some techniques to that like port-stow interactions and patient or relatively good Thieves gain so much control over fights and variables in numbers (5v1 relative 1v5, if we keep it small, etc.) that for the purposes of solo-ish roaming (distinct from solo-ish duelling or role-coordinated groups of havoc, small-group roaming or small-group duels) that it lead to some very strong options to leverage own fun at the expense of others' fun (ie., balance issues).

Take the Thief out of that environment and it is far less of a problem, but that environment is rather important for the broad sub-content model of WvW and I think when alot of people complain about "perma stealth" it is more that they have in mind, they just don't know how to articulate it, either that, or they just complain about getting killed like many other players do about other classes, but then they don't have me agreeing with them. I am mainly concerned with the 1vX to Xv1 balance of Thieves in the larger roaming environment (distinct from sPvP, duels and any role-based group play). It isn't even for my own benefit, because as I've stated before, I may like "roaming" and I may like "small" but in that I prefer role-based play. Most balance issues below that tend to send players into my pools. This is also why I've kept quiet about Thieves for a while now, since I've felt that most Thieves do not necessarily disagree or talk to me about that, discussions tend to circle around it and then I don't have much to add.

Hurr durr TLDR. I couldn't pass on this opportunity though, because I think it framed the discussion very well.

It frames the discussion because I think no-scope, anticipate, wait and reveal to some degree are fair ways to deal with stealth (and stealth as a whole in GW2 is not broken as some claim). However, that is based on those things being reasonably effective and in many cases with the Thief they are not. Decent enough Thieves all combine their stealth, mobility and what they gain from being able to compound so much of their builds into that inforced loop. Synergy is good, too much synergy is a balance issue and leads to simplistic dedication no one asks or talks about.

Like I've said before, I think the class could stand to gain from losing some things in deep areas and gain them in broad areas, a nudge towards things that work in less common uses but could use a nudge for attention. Thieves are not bad at larger scale, for example, but they are definitely not popular.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

They have stealth to get away from you, that's the purpose of it, who knew?

Ok, first of all. I didn't ask for the purpose of it I asked on how to counter it, so you already embarrassed yourself there.

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

I usually just keep hitting the other thief, or whoever went stealth, you'll probably know where they're at even if they think they're slick. Or I'll pull and try to lock down before they think of bouncing out. It actually doesn't take a genius to do the obvious but whatever. 

I'm sure in your little elitist head that such a scenario is possible. That a thief is even going to sit there and let you hit them, or lock them down. But that's not how it works does it? No, in reality, In a wvw situation, they are going to try and burst you down, and if that doesn't work, they will stealth up, shadow step, and disengage until they reset their cooldowns and then it's rinse, lather, repeat until they get it right. Make no mistake, While Perma stealth is a supplement to how Thief function, It plays a HUGE part as to why they cause many players grief over the years, to the point that they're loathed within the wvw community. That level of hatred didn't happen out of no where. If stealth had to be near you, then I doubt anyone would mind it as much. But that's not what's happening. It's the the fact that they can zip around across the map with absolute ease while being able to be stealth though it all is the problem.

Edited by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267
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3 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

and stealth as a whole in GW2 is not broken as some claim

It's the strongest form of stealth I've ever encountered in ANY MMORPG with PvP. It's completely and utterly broken due to the uptime on it. "Revealed" should last AT LEAST 15 seconds.

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10 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Ok genius, educate us. Since you seems like you know all about allll about thief. How DO we counter stealth? How do you prevent them from getting away from you the very moment you get close to them? If you know, tell us. Instead of wasting our time telling us we don't know jack kitten. I REALLY look foward to your answer.

Don't expect too much from stealth DE, he pewpew from 1.5k 24/7 and then stealths away if someone dares to come within 1.2k range.

7 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

If it's busted, why isn't everyone playing it and why is no one asking for it? 

 

They have stealth to get away from you, that's the purpose of it, who knew? I usually just keep hitting the other thief, or whoever went stealth, you'll probably know where they're at even if they think they're slick. Or I'll pull and try to lock down before they think of bouncing out. It actually doesn't take a genius to do the obvious but whatever. 

Not everyone ejoys playing brainlet builds you know?
It's very bold of you to claim "they have stealth to get away from you" while playing SA DD. I've seen you play already and it kinda contradict that statement with your gameplay. You abuse your stealth so much in combat and enemy can't do kitten against it, yet you only see it as "tool to run away", which also is a problem in itself.

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It's 

14 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Ok, first of all. I didn't ask for the purpose of it I asked on how to counter it, so you already embarrassed yourself there.

I'm sure in your little elitist head that such a scenario is possible. That a thief is even going to sit there and let you hit them, or lock them down. But that's not how it works does it? No, in reality, In a wvw situation, they are going to try and burst you down, and if that doesn't work, they will stealth up, shadow step, and disengage until they reset their cooldowns and then it's rinse, lather, repeat until they get it right. Make no mistake, While Perma stealth is a supplement to how Thief function, It plays a HUGE part as to why they cause many players grief over the years, to the point that they're loathed within the wvw community. That level of hatred didn't happen out of no where. If stealth had to be near you, then I doubt anyone would mind it as much. But that's not what's happening. It's the the fact that they can zip around across the map with absolute ease while being able to be stealth though it all is the problem.

It's not elitist, but that's what you got to work with. Is Stealth serious enough that you think Anet is going to change something soon? Chances are they slotted to get away, so did you slot to lock down? 

They're not "perma stealth" if they damage you. 

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15 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Here I come barging in again. Before I begin to nitpick at what you're saying and I qouted, I need to commend your earlier point about Meld and Scope. I think that is a suggestion that makes alot of sense, because as you point out, Scope is taking on part of the role one would assume Meld to have. Most issues with DE mechanics come from what Meld and Scope do ontop of other things like SA traits. However, that is also relevant for what you say here.

It seems like your experience of meeting Thieves differ quite alot from other people. I don't know why that is, but my best guess is that this differs quite wildly between EU and NA servers as well as between tiers and servers themselves. Not knowing where you play, what I've seen EU is more governed by potential and NA more by behaviour. NA's solo-ish roaming scene at least used to be more healthy as a result but it was also a case of what was being done trumphed what could be done and that's not how theory works. Possibly recent EU transfers to NA has changed that a bit (and vice versa) making EU behaviours more and more common. That may not be good for health, but is for theory. Either way, me and alot of people here see the Thief as the most populated small-scale class. It surprises me when I see people complain about Rangers for example since I tend to see them less and I tend to see them die more to larger groups ungentlemanly chasing them down. They may be quick as roamers, but not quick enough as Thieves to escape so much more.

Another thing I've brought up before is that popular Thief builds gain so much from stealth that there is little variation in how they are setup. That is a likely reason why there is little discussion about Thief builds. There seems to be a shared understanding within the class that power is powerful enough, condi is cheesy and hybrid isn't worth it (mainly because few people play it in role-coordinated groups; Thief is actually a class that can gain alot from eg., Celestial stats but few people use the class for the purposes where that can be useful and as such never use it where that can be useful - it's a bit of an absurd tangent, but bare with me).

That leads into that last part of the qoute. The issue has never been that Thieves have stealth to get away. It isn't even an issue about whether Thieves should ambush. Further more, it's not about how well an idea of Meld for long stealths fits WvW or the repeated concerns about "perma stealth". That can be questioned, but itsn't really a big problem. It is rather the totals of engagement and disengagement opportunities afforded to the class through how much they gain from their stealth, its interactions and the other unique class mechanics.

Meld and Scope serves one example of that where the current mechanics can be applied to your example. You can Meld to beat the reveals, you can Rifle-port for initative, stealth with dodge and attack from stealth to avoid no-scope damage, reveals and the need to use initiative or utilities on things that come your way. There are similar interactions between stealths and steals, stealths and utility ports or stealths, initative and traits or other utilities.

Add some techniques to that like port-stow interactions and patient or relatively good Thieves gain so much control over fights and variables in numbers (5v1 relative 1v5, if we keep it small, etc.) that for the purposes of solo-ish roaming (distinct from solo-ish duelling or role-coordinated groups of havoc, small-group roaming or small-group duels) that it lead to some very strong options to leverage own fun at the expense of others' fun (ie., balance issues).

Take the Thief out of that environment and it is far less of a problem, but that environment is rather important for the broad sub-content model of WvW and I think when alot of people complain about "perma stealth" it is more that they have in mind, they just don't know how to articulate it, either that, or they just complain about getting killed like many other players do about other classes, but then they don't have me agreeing with them. I am mainly concerned with the 1vX to Xv1 balance of Thieves in the larger roaming environment (distinct from sPvP, duels and any role-based group play). It isn't even for my own benefit, because as I've stated before, I may like "roaming" and I may like "small" but in that I prefer role-based play. Most balance issues below that tend to send players into my pools. This is also why I've kept quiet about Thieves for a while now, since I've felt that most Thieves do not necessarily disagree or talk to me about that, discussions tend to circle around it and then I don't have much to add.

Hurr durr TLDR. I couldn't pass on this opportunity though, because I think it framed the discussion very well.

It frames the discussion because I think no-scope, anticipate, wait and reveal to some degree are fair ways to deal with stealth (and stealth as a whole in GW2 is not broken as some claim). However, that is based on those things being reasonably effective and in many cases with the Thief they are not. Decent enough Thieves all combine their stealth, mobility and what they gain from being able to compound so much of their builds into that inforced loop. Synergy is good, too much synergy is a balance issue and leads to simplistic dedication no one asks or talks about.

Like I've said before, I think the class could stand to gain from losing some things in deep areas and gain them in broad areas, a nudge towards things that work in less common uses but could use a nudge for attention. Thieves are not bad at larger scale, for example, but they are definitely not popular.

Good write up.

All those things do work well together, but regulate one thing to harshly and the hit to survivability can get exponential, especially since most people who are super serious about regulating one class or profession will definitely use any advantage they have without shame. I think there does need to be a big hit at some point to Stealth duration application, since it wouldn't cripple Stealth Attacks much, then sift the damage and see where we're at. Not that I think Stealth duration is game breaking, but the design of new Elites and encounters are making the application of it dated. 

Edited by kash.9213
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