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Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?


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5 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

What you proposed is: bring SEVERAL(1+n) players and WASTE SUPPLIES to entertain one stealth clown in objective. I don't know about you and your delusions, but this claim just shows how teef players are disconnected from reality and how badly stealth need a kitten nerf to the ground.
Marked from traps/paints just gives you "some" chance against teefs, they still can port, they still can stealth, but they can't stay in stealth forever. Revealed on most classes is garbo. But hey, now you can sometimes see teef on screen, not like he can port away on different continent as one of the highest mobility classes in the entire game.


That's not getting into the fact that a thief ISN'T going to target 7 people group together. Not unless they know they can get away with it. And lets be real, if you're solo roaming, and KNOW a thief is nearby, a painter isn't remotely CLOSE to being an answer. It isn't. You won't remotely have enough supplies to build it on your own, and even if you did, you have to waste time building the thing, leaving yourself open to backstab.

This has been a problem for YEARS now. Anet keep dancing around the issue, trying to put traps and other nonsense to "Nerf" A thief's stealth, which didn't work. They merely adapted to it.

It's very telling that the most reaction I have on my posts here are confusion reactions, because those are simply thieves who has embraced their ability to over preform in wvw, getting all salty for the fact that people, rightfully so, want their ability to disenage and stealth to be balanced. Considering the fact that all the arguments I've heard boils down to "Oh just blindly swing your sword and make aoe into the ground, and pry that said thief is stupid enough to be around there." Or "Just use revels guys, even though not every class/elite spec has it, and gets negated by deadeye." Or "Just use traps guys! It requires a lot of set up and supply point, and you need a zerg to do this reliably, but you know lololololol." It's pathetic just how hard People are defending this crap right now.

The funny part about this, is that there is ONE class that "Just hit people while they're stealth" Strat actually works on. And that's ENGINEER! They're the ONLY class in the game that would have had a reliable, and GOOD reveal trait. If there wasn't a cooldown on it holding it back lmao.

Edited by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267
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Yeah switch maps, because anet doesn't care about stealth abuse until it affects their pve stuff, and it's not worth to stress over it's stupidity.

Well they have rev soloing bosses with torment and then they went and buffed torment for pve.. so they probably just don't care in general anymore.   I mean they put in reveal on all enemies

This game poorly handles stealth

55 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:


That's not getting into the fact that a thief ISN'T going to target 7 people group together. Not unless they know they can get away with it. And lets be real, if you're solo roaming, and KNOW a thief is nearby, a painter isn't remotely CLOSE to being an answer. It isn't. You won't remotely have enough supplies to build it on your own, and even if you did, you have to waste time building the thing, leaving yourself open to backstab.

This has been a problem for YEARS now. Anet keep dancing around the issue, trying to put traps and other nonsense to "Nerf" A thief's stealth, which didn't work. They merely adapted to it.

It's very telling that the most reaction I have on my posts here are confusion reactions, because those are simply thieves who has embraced their ability to over preform in wvw, getting all salty for the fact that people, rightfully so, want their ability to disenage and stealth to be balanced. Considering the fact that all the arguments I've heard boils down to "Oh just blindly swing your sword and make aoe into the ground, and pry that said thief is stupid enough to be around there." Or "Just use revels guys, even though not every class/elite spec has it, and gets negated by deadeye." Or "Just use traps guys! It requires a lot of set up and supply point, and you need a zerg to do this reliably, but you know lololololol." It's pathetic just how hard People are defending this crap right now.

The funny part about this, is that there is ONE class that "Just hit people while they're stealth" Strat actually works on. And that's ENGINEER! They're the ONLY class in the game that would have had a reliable, and GOOD reveal trait. If there wasn't a cooldown on it holding it back lmao.


Target painters are better than target painters traps. Instantly accessible and work better imo. 
 

Don't worry about confusion reactions on the forums. There's nothing to be gained from such indicators when the only thing you can actually react to are posts. 
 

The best advice I can give anyone when fighting anyone is 1) build your profession to kite out an opponent, 2) have both melee and ranged burst options (or really good mobility), 3) have at least one ability you can use to escape a major burst. 
 

Stealth is a repositioning tool. You need to retreat when they stealth and force them to chase you. If you have a painter you can hard counter them if they are over reliant on stealth. If they still beat you with the painter on them there is a skill level difference and you won't be winning that fight regardless of profession. 

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1 hour ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:


That's not getting into the fact that a thief ISN'T going to target 7 people group together. Not unless they know they can get away with it. And lets be real, if you're solo roaming, and KNOW a thief is nearby, a painter isn't remotely CLOSE to being an answer. It isn't. You won't remotely have enough supplies to build it on your own, and even if you did, you have to waste time building the thing, leaving yourself open to backstab.

This has been a problem for YEARS now. Anet keep dancing around the issue, trying to put traps and other nonsense to "Nerf" A thief's stealth, which didn't work. They merely adapted to it.

It's very telling that the most reaction I have on my posts here are confusion reactions, because those are simply thieves who has embraced their ability to over preform in wvw, getting all salty for the fact that people, rightfully so, want their ability to disenage and stealth to be balanced. Considering the fact that all the arguments I've heard boils down to "Oh just blindly swing your sword and make aoe into the ground, and pry that said thief is stupid enough to be around there." Or "Just use revels guys, even though not every class/elite spec has it, and gets negated by deadeye." Or "Just use traps guys! It requires a lot of set up and supply point, and you need a zerg to do this reliably, but you know lololololol." It's pathetic just how hard People are defending this crap right now.

Actually there is nothing pathetic in telling you the truth, that there are a lot of ways to play around stealth and that stealth is nothing like the unbalanced op skill you make it out to be.

You know what else has been a problem for years? People not wanting to learn how to fight against stealth or to build in a way they have the option to defend against such attacks, but  complaining in the forums about stealth and ignoring every tip or advice given to them from people who have no issues in dealing with "stealth".

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While it would be nice to play without permastealth being in the game, the only issue is the portal. If nerfs to stealth would hurt core thief then just remove the portal. It never had it in the first place and seemed to do fine without it. If you still continue to have issues after portal is gone then it's a l2p issue regarding proper sweeping.

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Idk how solve keeps problem, but best way to fight invis is became one too, my friends and I during beta were killed by groups of 8-10 perma invis teefs, so we moved to invis classes too. Scrappers ,mesmers and thiefs and now we can bomb bigger groups. You cannot react if you cant see. So my advice, play teef too. Its super cool actualy, sad I wasted so much time with herald.

You only beat fire with fire. Same mobility, same everything.

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21 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

What you proposed is: bring SEVERAL(1+n) players and WASTE SUPPLIES to entertain one stealth clown in objective. I don't know about you and your delusions, but this claim just shows how teef players are disconnected from reality and how badly stealth need a kitten nerf to the ground.
Marked from traps/paints just gives you "some" chance against teefs, they still can port, they still can stealth, but they can't stay in stealth forever. Revealed on most classes is garbo. But hey, now you can sometimes see teef on screen, not like he can port away on different continent as one of the highest mobility classes in the entire game.


What I propose is something that apparantly one person isnt able to do so for lots of players,hence you do it with more people if the need is there, Everyone has traps yet i rarely see anyone use it,but rather nag nag,most specs have reveals,yet rarely slots it in these scenarios neither. I have no issues myself tracking them down alone though. All l2p issues,but most people rather nag about this solo thief as adressing the more serious issues in wvw.

Its pretty hilarious people still cry about a solo spec instead of adressing busted sustain group gameplay,because that kitten is So much fun !

Edited by Caedmon.6798
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2 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

What I propose is something that apparently one person isn't able to do so for lots of players, hence you do it with more people if the need is there,

Actually having multiple people will make thieves harder to track since having more people makes it more of a dead giveaway that they're being tracked. Plus people always spam their skills and hop on warclaw, instead of having their ears on the ground for clues.

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2 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:


What I propose is something that apparantly one person isnt able to do so for lots of players,hence you do it with more people if the need is there, Everyone has traps yet i rarely see anyone use it,but rather nag nag,most specs have reveals,yet rarely slots it in these scenarios neither. I have no issues myself tracking them down alone though. All l2p issues,but most people rather nag about this solo thief as adressing the more serious issues in wvw.

Its pretty hilarious people still cry about a solo spec instead of adressing busted sustain group gameplay,because that kitten is So much fun !

Oh just stop this "hey, but they're more broken than me, FOCUS THEM" arguments, we're not in the kindergarten.
What you proposed won't work in the slightest, very few reveals that classes have can even be considered as "reliable", most of them can be just dodged or completely ignored and they have such long cooldowns that they're simply not worth equipping in the first place.
You still ignore the fact that traps REQUIRE supplies to deploy and they still just bring the stealth to "barely" balanced state, meaning they barely give you SOME chances to fight teefs in long run. Traps also make YOU vulnerable while you're deploying them, so teef can just yeet you while you're bending over, but you ignore that fact, right? Teef also doesn't have to step on them, which you forgot to mention (bah, saw some teefs just run through them without getting marked, fun times). Now the paints also require SUPPLIES and they require you to aim at "possible" location of teef if stealthed or you throw at them when they're visible, but surprise surprise, teefs can port away before they even get hit by them, happened so many times that these paints are barely viable at this point.
But let's assume for your meme arguments, that the traps/paints did somehow hit a teef and woo hoo it's marked now, but hey, they can still stealth! What a surprise, well not really, but let's pretend it was surprising. Now you only need to get to the teef and just kill them, easy enough? Ah no, wait a minute right there sir, teef still CAN teleport all over the place, so if you don't have any chase potential like for example Guardian (requires targets to teleport) or high range like Ranger, then welp, you just wasted supplies to mark teef which still can't do a kitten against.

Last thing:
I don't care if it's roaming, small scale or even blob fights, IF there's anything that's broken in whatever scenarios, it should be nerfed, that's the reality, so stop trying to point fingers at different broken things to justify your broken kitten.

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10 hours ago, msalakka.4653 said:

While it would be nice to play without permastealth being in the game, the only issue is the portal. If nerfs to stealth would hurt core thief then just remove the portal. It never had it in the first place and seemed to do fine without it. If you still continue to have issues after portal is gone then it's a l2p issue regarding proper sweeping.

I'd be totally fine with this. All I wanted was for shadow trap to have proper pathing when used at range, if that was too hard to fix without giving thief a portal then scrap the skill and give us something else instead. 

By the way, the way I deal with permastealth thieves, or roamers of any kind in an objective I own, is to kite them to an edge on my minstrel build then use a launch or knockback to throw them out of the objective. I'm sure others could do the same with little effort. 

Edited by Jugglemonkey.8741
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49 minutes ago, Faccina.5091 said:

this afternoon near sm 5 ranger spamming sicem on a normal thief for 15 minutes he was hiding anyway 🙉🙈


Must not have been hitting the thief then. What a talented group of rangers.

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I think they should introduce smell as a mechanic for players and not just mounts. Thematically it makes sense: people are constantly running around outdoors and they haven't showered..ever. Everyone would leave a slight trail of B.O. that gets more visible the longer you play.

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Watching some of the answers, like "you never have enough supply or time to use a painter" tells you enough about the kind of players talking about this or that being OP.

I do agree stealth is annoying, even OP when combined with some Deadeye abilities or traits, or massive mobility. I think one of the best ways would be leaving stealth untouched but also adding this:

https://imgur.com/LCVqbSd

Here is a League of Legends character invisible, yet upon being hit you can see a shadow of said character and where is he looking at (and therefore, guess where is he moving to). This effect being triggered everytime you hit an invisible target would be an indirect nerf to stealth without destroying even more the thief class.

Edited by Telgum.6071
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    How about meddling the final moment of a skill animation(for instance; Blackpowder from Pistol number 5, Heartseeker from Dagger number 2)when Thief is about to enter stealth(by using any Crowd Control ability)? How about shutting down Thief's Healing skill(Hide in the Shadows, for example)? How about counting down the time to wait for Thief's stealth time runs out, being wary when Thief strikes, predicting what he is going to do and dodging Thief essential attacks at the same time? The rest of the show is up to you who will execute Thief while you can still see Thief before Thief repeats the cycle of Shadowiness. 

   I hope these will come in handy. Thank you for reading.

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2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Watching some of the answers, like "you never have enough supply or time to use a painter" tells you enough about the kind of players talking about this or that being OP.

I do agree stealth is annoying, even OP when combined with some Deadeye abilities or traits, or massive mobility. I think one of the best ways would be leaving stealth untouched but also adding this:

https://imgur.com/LCVqbSd

Here is a League of Legends character invisible, yet upon being hit you can see a shadow of said character and where is he looking at (and therefore, guess where is he moving to). This effect being triggered everytime you hit an invisible target would be an indirect nerf to stealth without destroying even more the thief class.

I'm not suggesting that this is a solution or that it's 100% reliable, but for those that don't know, Sigil of Fire has a similar effect to what you're saying here.
If you hit someone in Stealth and proc Sigil of Fire it will explode at the targets location even while they're invisible. So you can "see" where they are when it procs on them.

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3 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Watching some of the answers, like "you never have enough supply or time to use a painter" tells you enough about the kind of players talking about this or that being OP.

Target painters are garbage in combat. When you are messing arround in your inventory and pick up something that basically prevents you from using skills, you are just asking to get killed. And even if you somehow manage to mark a thief, they can still run away. Target painters do not offer reasonable counterplay.

 

1 hour ago, Sylvia.4870 said:

    How about meddling the final moment of a skill animation(for instance; Blackpowder from Pistol number 5, Heartseeker from Dagger number 2)when Thief is about to enter stealth(by using any Crowd Control ability)

If only i wouldn't have to get rid of the blind first and had access to ranged on demand cc with short cd (you know, not every class has head shot and steal ...)

Quote

? How about shutting down Thief's Healing skill(Hide in the Shadows, for example)?

If only they couldn't cover it with blind or stealth or mobility ...

Quote

How about counting down the time to wait for Thief's stealth time runs out,

If only there was a set time at which stealth runs out ...

Quote

being wary when Thief strikes, predicting what he is going to do and dodging Thief essential attacks at the same time?

If only i was a clairvoyant ...

The problem isn't stealth (or thieves) in general. Just certain builds (shadow arts) that have way too much access to stealth and mobility which renders counterplay options - such as those mentioned - futile.

 

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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51 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Target painters are garbage in combat. When you are messing arround in your inventory and pick up something that basically prevents you from using skills, you are just asking to get killed. And even if you somehow manage to mark a thief, they can still run away. Target painters do not offer reasonable counterplay.

 

If only i wouldn't have to get rid of the blind first and had access to ranged on demand cc with short cd (you know, not every class has head shot and steal ...)

If only they couldn't cover it with blind or stealth or mobility ...

If only there was a set time at which stealth runs out ...

If only i was a clairvoyant ...

The problem isn't stealth (or thieves) in general. Just certain builds (shadow arts) that have way too much access to stealth and mobility which renders counterplay options - such as those mentioned - futile.

 

I can already see Telgum writing something like "you can arrange your inventory in such way that picking that trap/paint takes less than a second! you also have infinite supps at all times so this shouldnt be problem reeeeeeeeeeeee".
He probably met only some pepega teefs on same level as him that's why he believes that it works.

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1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I can already see Telgum writing something like "you can arrange your inventory in such way that picking that trap/paint takes less than a second! you also have infinite supps at all times so this shouldnt be problem reeeeeeeeeeeee".
He probably met only some pepega teefs on same level as him that's why he believes that it works.

We can meet ingame if you want, seeing how much you love to quote or mention me. I'm 99% sure you would bring either trailblazer, celestial or nade.

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I'm not suggesting that this is a solution or that it's 100% reliable, but for those that don't know, Sigil of Fire has a similar effect to what you're saying here.
If you hit someone in Stealth and proc Sigil of Fire it will explode at the targets location even while they're invisible. So you can "see" where they are when it procs on them.

Noted, didn't know this.

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Target painters are garbage in combat. When you are messing arround in your inventory and pick up something that basically prevents you from using skills, you are just asking to get killed. And even if you somehow manage to mark a thief, they can still run away. Target painters do not offer reasonable counterplay.

"If you somehow manage to mark a thief", it literally has 360 range and takes one second or less to open and pick it if you have the position fixed.

Target painters aren't a reasonable counterplay? Weird, then I guess why 90% of the stealth spammers I've met ran away as soon as they realized they were marked.

Edited by Telgum.6071
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2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Target painters are garbage in combat. When you are messing arround in your inventory and pick up something that basically prevents you from using skills, you are just asking to get killed. And even if you somehow manage to mark a thief, they can still run away. Target painters do not offer reasonable counterplay.

 

If only i wouldn't have to get rid of the blind first and had access to ranged on demand cc with short cd (you know, not every class has head shot and steal ...)

If only they couldn't cover it with blind or stealth or mobility ...

If only there was a set time at which stealth runs out ...

If only i was a clairvoyant ...

The problem isn't stealth (or thieves) in general. Just certain builds (shadow arts) that have way too much access to stealth and mobility which renders counterplay options - such as those mentioned - futile.

 

If they're packing all those counters to what you could have brought but didn't, they're not rolling around with much else. Those are all build choices and they were chosen over other stuff. Why do you think you should be able to wreck someone who bothered when you didn't?

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42 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Target painters aren't a reasonable counterplay? Weird, then I guess why 90% of the stealth spammers I've met ran away as soon as they realized they were marked.

I don't need target painters (and risk dieing unneccessarily) to make 90% of thieves run away. Thing is, 90% of other classes are dead at that point.

20 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

If they're packing all those counters to what you could have brought but didn't, they're not rolling around with much else. Those are all build choices and they were chosen over other stuff. Why do you think you should be able to wreck someone who bothered when you didn't?

Ah yes, poor little sa thieves, having to give up soo much for an overabundance of mobility and stealth and blinds and evades and whatnot ...

And you didn't adress any of the points i brought up. So which counters exactly are you talking about? Luck? Very reliable. Hope, the thief is bad? Yea, that actually works most of the time. Until you meet one that isn't terrible.

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33 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I don't need target painters (and risk dieing unneccessarily) to make 90% of thieves run away. Thing is, 90% of other classes are dead at that point.

Ah yes, poor little sa thieves, having to give up soo much for an overabundance of mobility and stealth and blinds and evades and whatnot ...

And you didn't adress any of the points i brought up. So which counters exactly are you talking about? Luck? Very reliable. Hope, the thief is bad? Yea, that actually works most of the time. Until you meet one that isn't terrible.

One or two things in Shadow Arts needs to be adjusted along with Dagger/Pistol and some uses of Daredevil, but you're overselling it. I don't address sniveling but whatever.

The blinds are fair, other people are going to walk out into the same map as stacked as they can be and they're not going to pull any punches on a thief with only passable hitpoints and pretty much nonexistent passive flak unless they scrap this unicorn build you seem to like to fight. Take out one of the things you're crying about and the thief wont keep up with other players. People cry about how hard to catch or lock down thieves are, not how much of their health bar they have to chip away at or the mitigation they have to knock out first.  

Ask for some adjustment to a few things that are out of whack but don't try to make it sound like creating a thief character makes you all that. 

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I honestly think people playing perma stealth builds have some sort of problem with themselves. But there are ways to counter it:

- fear spam on necro

- power block on

- face tanking on celestial builds 

- sic’em + burst


but yeah it is annoying to deal with. The very existence of thieves makes playing glass builds in WvW tricky even for roaming

 

 

 

Edited by Mik.3401
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On 1/23/2022 at 8:42 AM, NuhDah.9812 said:

Actually there is nothing pathetic in telling you the truth, that there are a lot of ways to play around stealth and that stealth is nothing like the unbalanced op skill you make it out to be.

You know what else has been a problem for years? People not wanting to learn how to fight against stealth or to build in a way they have the option to defend against such attacks, but  complaining in the forums about stealth and ignoring every tip or advice given to them from people who have no issues in dealing with "stealth".

    As long as those who have a problem with stealth still ignore to learn how to deal with the Thief , it is unlikely they will stop complaining on the forums. The endless cycle of grief indeed.

Edited by Sylvia.4870
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