Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?

[Birdie.3869]

Honestly, my only issue with stealth currently is that if you drive your axe into a thief's head while they're in stealth it doesn't automatically reveal them. How can I hit them and still not know they're there?

Stealth should be removed on hit like it is in every other game, don't even need to apply reveal after the hit, just remove the buff.

Wouldn't fix every problem with stealth, but it would give classes like elementalist a chance at fighting stealth thieves since they (and some other classes) have 0 form of reveal as it currently is.

Just spamming AOE doesn't work as it is, thieves can just jump through them quickly or outburst you quickly before the AOE damage does anything, as can most any class that uses stealth for their burst (Hi grenade scrappers!)

Painter traps do nothing against deadeye by the way. Why would they need to get close to you? Same with any other class that doesn't need to walk where you were standing. Map reveal still allows 3 seconds of stealth anyway, making more a nerf than a counter. You can still get one shot out of stealth, or at least have the attempt made.

Just because not everyone abuses stealth in it's current state doesn't mean it isn't the most powerful buff in the game. Even quickness falls short to what stealth can do. PvE mobs don't reset or even swing wildly against stealth, just stand there blankly and fight after it's over. Is that what ArenaNet expects players to do?

It's a much better form of alacrity as it is in PvE. Sure, you can't hit while you're invisible without losing it but that's fine, the mob won't reset and cooldowns tick anyway. Including the skills that put you in stealth. Yay for burst!

You can even solo some raids this way, better slow than never right?

And yes I've tried thief, along with other classes that use stealth like mesmer and scrapper. I've played a lot of it actually, stealth abuse was the most powerful of any build I've found. The fight is over whenever I want it to be as long as I'm using a stealth skill. Isn't that fun? 

My proposed change doesn't at all fix the issue stealth has with PvE, but at least those in WvW in those giant open fields of a thieves dreams would be able to have even a chance against it.

Thief isn't the only class that can abuse stealth, they just do it the best. Sentries in WvW were changed to nerf stealth on all classes, but sentries die fast and that debuff suddenly doesn't matter anymore after that. Sentries are also marked on the map, making them easy to avoid. That just leaves player reveals to counter it or just trying to outplay the opponent.

There's only 4 AOE reveals currently

---Sight beyond Sight which is Spellbreaker only.

---Detection Pulse which is Engineer giving up a utility slot for the toolbelt skill. (yay 1 second of resistance and a long cooldown stunbreak that does nothing else).

---Gaze of Darkness which is Herald only.

---Tainted Shackles which is core necro only (also breaks if any target goes beyond 600 range before it ends) (requires life force to use)

Of all these, only engineers has 900 range, the rest have 600 and all are formed around the caster, so hope they're near you.

Targeted reveals can't hit characters in stealth making it only a counter play if you already see the character planning to stealth that isn't a deadeye. The cooldown still goes up if you miss that shot though, so that's too bad.

I get people don't want their easy mode buff nerfed at all, and I also understand there's also other issues with the game like heavy bunker builds, but the cries for stealth not getting nerfed actually work better on stuff like bunker: Walk away.

You can't always do that against stealth, since you never know what direction they're going. Engi has superspeed, Mesmer and Thief have teleports. What exactly are you going to do on guardian or rev against that besides accept death?

Sorry for the long post, but stealth IS certainly something that needs to be looked at as it is, and I know that many will hate me for saying it. If resistance negating all condi damage was broken, how is stealth negating all targeted damage and most aoe damage not?

Edited February 1, 2022 by Birdie.3869

[sergiomasako.2906]

The truth is that for some time now, the population of thieves has increased a lot. There must be a reason. Anet or take care of your game or go to hell.

[kash.9213]

53 minutes ago, Birdie.3869 said:

Honestly, my only issue with stealth currently is that if you drive your axe into a thief's head while they're in stealth it doesn't automatically reveal them. How can I hit them and still not know they're there?

Stealth should be removed on hit like it is in every other game, don't even need to apply reveal after the hit, just remove the buff.

Wouldn't fix every problem with stealth, but it would give classes like elementalist a chance at fighting stealth thieves since they (and some other classes) have 0 form of reveal as it currently is.

Just spamming AOE doesn't work as it is, thieves can just jump through them quickly or outburst you quickly before the AOE damage does anything, as can most any class that uses stealth for their burst (Hi grenade scrappers!)

Painter traps do nothing against deadeye by the way. Why would they need to get close to you? Same with any other class that doesn't need to walk where you were standing. Map reveal still allows 3 seconds of stealth anyway, making more a nerf than a counter. You can still get one shot out of stealth, or at least have the attempt made.

Just because not everyone abuses stealth in it's current state doesn't mean it isn't the most powerful buff in the game. Even quickness falls short to what stealth can do. PvE mobs don't reset or even swing wildly against stealth, just stand there blankly and fight after it's over. Is that what ArenaNet expects players to do?

It's a much better form of alacrity as it is in PvE. Sure, you can't hit while you're invisible without losing it but that's fine, the mob won't reset and cooldowns tick anyway. Including the skills that put you in stealth. Yay for burst!

You can even solo some raids this way, better slow than never right?

And yes I've tried thief, along with other classes that use stealth like mesmer and scrapper. I've played a lot of it actually, stealth abuse was the most powerful of any build I've found. The fight is over whenever I want it to be as long as I'm using a stealth skill. Isn't that fun? 

My proposed change doesn't at all fix the issue stealth has with PvE, but at least those in WvW in those giant open fields of a thieves dreams would be able to have even a chance against it.

Thief isn't the only class that can abuse stealth, they just do it the best. Sentries in WvW were changed to nerf stealth on all classes, but sentries die fast and that debuff suddenly doesn't matter anymore after that. Sentries are also marked on the map, making them easy to avoid. That just leaves player reveals to counter it or just trying to outplay the opponent.

There's only 4 AOE reveals currently

---Sight beyond Sight which is Spellbreaker only.

---Detection Pulse which is Engineer giving up a utility slot for the toolbelt skill. (yay 1 second of resistance and a long cooldown stunbreak that does nothing else).

---Gaze of Darkness which is Herald only.

---Tainted Shackles which is core necro only (also breaks if any target goes beyond 600 range before it ends) (requires life force to use)

Of all these, only engineers has 900 range, the rest have 600 and all are formed around the caster, so hope they're near you.

Targeted reveals can't hit characters in stealth making it only a counter play if you already see the character planning to stealth that isn't a deadeye. The cooldown still goes up if you miss that shot though, so that's too bad.

I get people don't want their easy mode buff nerfed at all, and I also understand there's also other issues with the game like heavy bunker builds, but the cries for stealth not getting nerfed actually work better on stuff like bunker: Walk away.

You can't always do that against stealth, since you never know what direction they're going. Engi has superspeed, Mesmer and Thief have teleports. What exactly are you going to do on guardian or rev against that besides accept death?

Sorry for the long post, but stealth IS certainly something that needs to be looked at as it is, and I know that many will hate me for saying it. If resistance negating all condi damage was broken, how is stealth negating all targeted damage and most aoe damage not?

If you think stealth is the most powerful buff in the game you're refusing to play most of the game. 

Making a Stealthed player visible after being hit at least in some form would be fine, but don't forget either make sure Stealth Attack still works during the duration or is replaced with something before suggesting nerfs and probably a small Health increase since they're going to have to tank through lockdowns.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:28 PM, kash.9213 said:

If you think stealth is the most powerful buff in the game you're refusing to play most of the game. 

Making a Stealthed player visible after being hit at least in some form would be fine, but don't forget either make sure Stealth Attack still works during the duration or is replaced with something before suggesting nerfs and probably a small Health increase since they're going to have to tank through lockdowns.

Gonna refresh the topic, since stealth still isn't deleted from game.
It is most powerful buff in the game, it's pretty much the deciding factor of the encounters in long run.
Teef may or may not attack while sitting in stealth, it dictates the flow of the fight and will only die if they get too greedy, otherwise it's lost fight for enemies.
Teefs also have kitten load of teleports and evades, which you always seem to forget, it is quite "overloaded" kit, now let's add some pepe stealth campers and that's it.

[Vortigern.1987]

Stealth isn't a probelm per se and it doesn't have to be "deleted from game". Shadow Portal, on the other hand, is a problem, because  it can be used to circumvent the walls of keeps. Sure, Mesmers have a portal too, but the portal isn't invisible like Shadow Portal and Mesmers do not have the same amount of stealth and mobility and it is much easier to hunt them down. It becomes pretty bad when you have  3 thieves in a keep at the same time, all of them in full nomad gear, completely traited for defense and mobility and being able to port themselves back into the keep after you killed one or two of them. The effort that is needed to get them out is simply too much in a game mode with a capped  number of players per map.

 

However, it is really funny to read so many "git gud" and "ltp" comments from people who claim to be pvp players, while they defend a feature that promotes pve.

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:28 PM, kash.9213 said:

probably a small Health increase since they're going to have to tank through lockdowns.

Like every other class ?

 

Thieves have the most stunbreaks/evades. They don’t need it even easier.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Stealth is a huge part of the game, personally I would like it if you get revealed regardless if a hit lands. Right now if an attack is dodged or it misses players are still stealthed. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[kash.9213]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:22 AM, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Like every other class ?

 

Thieves have the most stunbreaks/evades. They don’t need it even easier.

"the thief stealthed. We tried nothing and we're all out of ideas so we ran to the forums."

If they're packing a bunch of stunbreaks and evades then they likely have a near non existent health bar for WvW or they're trying to tank and they're not going to to do anything to you. They wont have all the passives and modifiers other people will have. They likely wont have a full lineup of boons to plow through everything with, and if they do, you can appreciated a thief build everyone claims they want to see more of. 

You're talking about killing any Stealth duration as a factor and basically taking out Stealth attacks, but you want to claim a thief is going to slot a bunch of stunbreaks and evades instead of slotting full gimmick stealth and probably some kind of condi bomb to compound Stealth Attack if they can manage to get one off to have any chance of killing someone. 

[Burial.1958]

On 2/1/2022 at 6:31 PM, Birdie.3869 said:

Honestly, my only issue with stealth currently is that if you drive your axe into a thief's head while they're in stealth it doesn't automatically reveal them. How can I hit them and still not know they're there?

Stealth should be removed on hit like it is in every other game, don't even need to apply reveal after the hit, just remove the buff.

Wouldn't fix every problem with stealth, but it would give classes like elementalist a chance at fighting stealth thieves since they (and some other classes) have 0 form of reveal as it currently is.

Just spamming AOE doesn't work as it is, thieves can just jump through them quickly or outburst you quickly before the AOE damage does anything, as can most any class that uses stealth for their burst (Hi grenade scrappers!)

Painter traps do nothing against deadeye by the way. Why would they need to get close to you? Same with any other class that doesn't need to walk where you were standing. Map reveal still allows 3 seconds of stealth anyway, making more a nerf than a counter. You can still get one shot out of stealth, or at least have the attempt made.

Just because not everyone abuses stealth in it's current state doesn't mean it isn't the most powerful buff in the game. Even quickness falls short to what stealth can do. PvE mobs don't reset or even swing wildly against stealth, just stand there blankly and fight after it's over. Is that what ArenaNet expects players to do?

It's a much better form of alacrity as it is in PvE. Sure, you can't hit while you're invisible without losing it but that's fine, the mob won't reset and cooldowns tick anyway. Including the skills that put you in stealth. Yay for burst!

You can even solo some raids this way, better slow than never right?

And yes I've tried thief, along with other classes that use stealth like mesmer and scrapper. I've played a lot of it actually, stealth abuse was the most powerful of any build I've found. The fight is over whenever I want it to be as long as I'm using a stealth skill. Isn't that fun? 

My proposed change doesn't at all fix the issue stealth has with PvE, but at least those in WvW in those giant open fields of a thieves dreams would be able to have even a chance against it.

Thief isn't the only class that can abuse stealth, they just do it the best. Sentries in WvW were changed to nerf stealth on all classes, but sentries die fast and that debuff suddenly doesn't matter anymore after that. Sentries are also marked on the map, making them easy to avoid. That just leaves player reveals to counter it or just trying to outplay the opponent.

There's only 4 AOE reveals currently

---Sight beyond Sight which is Spellbreaker only.

---Detection Pulse which is Engineer giving up a utility slot for the toolbelt skill. (yay 1 second of resistance and a long cooldown stunbreak that does nothing else).

---Gaze of Darkness which is Herald only.

---Tainted Shackles which is core necro only (also breaks if any target goes beyond 600 range before it ends) (requires life force to use)

Of all these, only engineers has 900 range, the rest have 600 and all are formed around the caster, so hope they're near you.

Targeted reveals can't hit characters in stealth making it only a counter play if you already see the character planning to stealth that isn't a deadeye. The cooldown still goes up if you miss that shot though, so that's too bad.

I get people don't want their easy mode buff nerfed at all, and I also understand there's also other issues with the game like heavy bunker builds, but the cries for stealth not getting nerfed actually work better on stuff like bunker: Walk away.

You can't always do that against stealth, since you never know what direction they're going. Engi has superspeed, Mesmer and Thief have teleports. What exactly are you going to do on guardian or rev against that besides accept death?

Sorry for the long post, but stealth IS certainly something that needs to be looked at as it is, and I know that many will hate me for saying it. If resistance negating all condi damage was broken, how is stealth negating all targeted damage and most aoe damage not?

 

Reveal at hit would kill this class. This Game is an AoE Fiesta. 

[Reborn.2934]

On 1/5/2022 at 4:49 AM, Virdo.1540 said:

We recently have trouble on our server with fighting against groups including multiple thiefs. If one wall is open, they will wait for hours until they can get their friends back in to destroy inner wall (t3 keeps) and we havent found a way to deal with them.

 

Traps to Reveal arent triggering or are simply running out with mega ports of thiefs.

Skill-Reveals are never hitting, if yes,  port through the whole keep -> invisible again

 

And permanently having people camp in the lord room doesnt work either, because after a little bit waiting, the enemy group gets simply bigger. 

 

Are people having any advice what to do against them?

 

poison them.

 

literally....

[Khenzy.9348]

Invisibility and stealth duration is standardized to last only 2 seconds. The only exceptions being the Elite skills: Shadow Meld, Sneak Gyro and Mass Invisibility.

Invisibility effects (which includes stealth) no longer stack in duration. 

All revealed effects cannot last longer than 4 seconds.

Revealed duration after using an attack from stealth reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds.

If your stealth attacks miss (due to blind or other effects), are dodged or blocked, you get revealed. The CD on stealth attacks is no longer needed.

All other skills with long lasting stealth or invisibility such as Toss Elixir S or Shadow Refuge (among others) are adjusted or redisigned accordingly.

All traits affecting stealth are now adjusted or redisigned accordingly where necessary.

Sentry's Marked debuff no longer reveals players.

 

I'd try something like this internally and see how it works. Maybe I'd increase the standardized duration to 3 seconds instead of 2, but I'd try both to see how it feels.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Khenzy.9348

[Shroud.2307]

This thread just keeps going, huh.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

8 hours ago, Khenzy.9348 said:

If your stealth attacks miss (due to blind or other effects), are dodged or blocked, you get revealed.

Just standardize every stealth attack to reveal you upon use, similar to Death's Judgement. That yields plenty of balancing leeway.

 

I simply do not see Anet doing a major re-design to thief and stealth, not with the current resources and staff. 

8 hours ago, Khenzy.9348 said:

Invisibility effects (which includes stealth) no longer stack in duration. 

For thief, there's a clear tradeoff for stacking self-stealth, already.

Edited February 9, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

 

 

I simply do not see Anet doing a major re-design to thief and stealth, not with the current resources and staff. 

For thief, there's a clear tradeoff for stacking self-stealth, already.

 Yep this costs alot of initiative. The Problem is most peoples don't know how the thief works and that leads that they don't know how to fight them. I have 9 years experience (and im only average+, there are much better thiefs than me) and i can tell you that i can easily see when a opponent played thief or not. Peoples really want to kill a thief in a 1vs1 with a blob build. That will not happen. When u nerf Thief stealth hard we need to compensate it and that will lead again to Thief Hate. Then it isn't stealth anymore, maybe then Evasion/mobility/blinds or what else. Peoples will find everytime somewhat what is OP for them. This is a neverending story.

 

Thief is strong in smallscale and 1vs1 situations yes but he is complete garbage in Zergfights and Grp Support and any larger fight Situations (other classes bring more on the table).

 

As i once said i play this game since 2012 and i never saw in the chat "Guild search a Thief" or " + Place free in the Zerg, we looking for a thief".

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

10 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Thief is strong in smallscale and 1vs1 situations yes but he is complete garbage in Zergfights and Grp Support and any larger fight Situations (other classes bring more on the table).

Spectre might change that, and this argument still isn't a justification for a roamer state on any class. 

Now, obviously many people here want to completely gut thief. Then you got some folks who want to shift around power, rework and redo some unhealthy interactions (or lack of, thereof) and promote high effort/reward gameplay.

[Littlekenny.4196]

25 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Tief is strong in smallscale and 1vs1 situations yes but he is complete garbage in Zergfights and Grp Support and any larger fight Situations (other classes bring more on the table).

 

As i once said i play this game since 2012 and i never saw in the chat "Guild search a Thief" or " + Place free in the Zerg, we looking for a thief".

 

 

That's probably because people try to play like they do in 1v1 or small-scale while in larger scale. I've not seen guilds recruiting thieves in chat or commanders asking in chat for people to switch to thief, but I have been recruited to guilds as a thief and have been asked to switch to thief when the zerg needed more damage.

[Burial.1958]

14 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

That's probably because people try to play like they do in 1v1 or small-scale while in larger scale. I've not seen guilds recruiting thieves in chat or commanders asking in chat for people to switch to thief, but I have been recruited to guilds as a thief and have been asked to switch to thief when the zerg needed more damage.

 

Yeah me too (with Staff) but honestly. The Thief class is no Meta Class for Zergfights (it never was). I saw alot who gave up because they didn't got any invite or where even kicked out from the Zerg because an other player had the better class for zerg fights. Some i know also gave up because there where to much nerfs (no joke).

 

32 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Spectre might change that, and this argument still isn't a justification for a roamer state on any class. 

Now, obviously many people here want to completely gut thief. Then you got some folks who want to shift around power, rework and redo some unhealthy interactions (or lack of, thereof) and promote high effort/reward gameplay.

 Of course it is a justification (my opinion). Specter i do not know because there are other classes like engi which have alot better (and easier) grp support than specter (at the moment). Specter was a complete junk in the beta when u tried to play him as a zerg support. And that lol from Anet that im a healbot for a commander. Ehm no, not my taste of "fun".

 

To Balance the thief is a thin line. U can make him really OP or ccomplete garbage with several changes. And this is due his unique class mechanic.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[kash.9213]

42 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

Yeah me too (with Staff) but honestly. The Thief class is no Meta Class for Zergfights (it never was). I saw alot who gave up because they didn't got any invite or where even kicked out from the Zerg because an other player had the better class for zerg fights. Some i know also gave up because there where to much nerfs (no joke).

 

 Of course it is a justification (my opinion). Specter i do not know because there are other classes like engi which have alot better (and easier) grp support than specter (at the moment). Specter was a complete junk in the beta when u tried to play him as a zerg support. And that lol from Anet that im a healbot for a commander. Ehm no, not my taste of "fun".

 

To Balance the thief is a thin line. U can make him really OP or ccomplete garbage with several changes. And this is due his unique class mechanic.

 

 

I agree with a lot of your earlier post but I disagree that thief is completely garbage in large scale fights. You can build for it and still do damage, but you have to know how to peel or close distance and overshoot their blob in the opposite direction they're driving real quick when you're focused because you will be focused. I find leap finishers about as useful as dodges and evades for blob fights. 

Specter was great in large fights, or any fight really and you can still roll around with your power set if you want. People don't want to mess around with the single targeting and Shroud for some reason even though Shadow Shroud is a great utility that even gives you weapon swap mods. I wouldn't be surprised if Anet tones down some aspects of it, but will probably misfire and nerf something dumb. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by kash.9213

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

12 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

Yeah me too (with Staff) but honestly. The Thief class is no Meta Class for Zergfights (it never was). I saw alot who gave up because they didn't got any invite or where even kicked out from the Zerg because an other player had the better class for zerg fights. Some i know also gave up because there where to much nerfs (no joke).

 

 Of course it is a justification (my opinion). Specter i do not know because there are other classes like engi which have alot better (and easier) grp support than specter (at the moment). Specter was a complete junk in the beta when u tried to play him as a zerg support. And that lol from Anet that im a healbot for a commander. Ehm no, not my taste of "fun".

 

To Balance the thief is a thin line. U can make him really OP or ccomplete garbage with several changes. And this is due his unique class mechanic.

 

 

You know, I think this here has a seed of truth in it. Thief truly is a unique class in the way it plays. There are no strictly cut-out rotations or skill combinations that play out the same each and every time. Playing thief in PvP is about improvising, always has been. This throws people off, and many people fail to adapt, both mechanically and mentality-wise.

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 2/7/2022 at 8:27 PM, kash.9213 said:

If they're packing a bunch of stunbreaks and evades then they likely have a near non existent health bar for WvW or they're trying to tank and they're not going to to do anything to you.

Right, I’ll tell the Deadeye with 2 stunbreaks that keep spamming 3k+ Rifle 2 on me he is just trying to tank.

 

On 2/7/2022 at 8:27 PM, kash.9213 said:

They wont have all the passives and modifiers other people will have. They likely wont have a full lineup of boons to plow through everything with, and if they do, you can appreciated a thief build everyone claims they want to see more of. 

1. They absolutley do unless Anet removed all traitlines from Thieves, which, from like 10 mins ago that I was online, was not the case.

 

Also they don’t need the boons to be effective, look at the most popular thief builds right now, and count the boons, it’s not many.

 

On 2/7/2022 at 8:27 PM, kash.9213 said:

You're talking about killing any Stealth duration as a factor and basically taking out Stealth attacks, but you want to claim a thief is going to slot a bunch of stunbreaks and evades instead of slotting full gimmick stealth and probably some kind of condi bomb to compound Stealth Attack if they can manage to get one off to have any chance of killing someone. 

Stealth attacks are fine, what is not fine is the frequency they can be spammed out/the frequency of the thief stealthing himself, and which Shadowarts, usually leads to a full reset for the thief due to the grandmaster trait.

 

Also theives already slot stunbreaks and evades. They are literally the most slippriest build in the roaming scene right now, and they certainly don’t need buffs. Rather nerfs, heavily, to SA.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

You know, I think this here has a seed of truth in it. Thief truly is a unique class in the way it plays. There are no strictly cut-out rotations or skill combinations that play out the same each and every time. Playing thief in PvP is about improvising, always has been. This throws people off, and many people fail to adapt, both mechanically and mentality-wise.

Yeah cuz nearly every d/p shortbow  SA thieves are def improvising, its literally steal open dps to kill fail to kill stealth back disengage and try again rinse and repeat. 

Your comment would make more sense if it were specific in thief builds like sword thieves. 

A good thief will never really die in a small skirmish fight, being able to access stealth whenever with no CD with a TON of mobility skills to disengage. 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

4 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yeah cuz nearly every d/p shortbow  SA thieves are def improvising, its literally steal open dps to kill fail to kill stealth back disengage and try again rinse and repeat. 

Your comment would make more sense if it were specific in thief builds like sword thieves. 

A good thief will never really die in a small skirmish fight, being able to access stealth whenever with no CD with a TON of mobility skills to disengage. 

Same rules still apply: cast times (safe for Shadowstep), daze and root kitten over thieves like any other class. Saying "never die" just implies you've never played against good players. Because that is a very bold claim.

Edited February 10, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Same rules still apply: cast times (safe for Shadowstep), daze and root kitten over thieves like any other class. Saying "never die" just implies you've never played against good players. Because that is a very bold claim.

Lol exactly good thieves wont die its as simple as that.

[Burial.1958]

44 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Lol exactly good thieves wont die its as simple as that.

 That such a bad argument. Because u can build every Class to a non die Hero. But for that u really have to disable the auto Target option and using leap Attacks as mobility skills. Simple as that. 🥱

[Salt Mode.3780]

57 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 That such a bad argument. Because u can build every Class to a non die Hero. But for that u really have to disable the auto Target option and using leap Attacks as mobility skills. Simple as that. 🥱

And that didn't make any sense and put any sort of relevancy to the topic. Fact is thieves have way too many jail free cards namely d/p SA combo.