Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No problem, let me explain:

@Grebcol.5984wrote: "Then there are alot of thiefs who made good suggestions for making the Traitlines better and making SA less important but nothing happend."

Which is very obviously talking about some of the propositions about nering SA (which ones, to what extend? Doesn't really matter right now, it's still clear what he's mentioning here are the proposed nerfs to SA to make it weaker/less important in the class builds).

That's the quote to which you've started responding with things like:

"Its funny you know those who are spamming confused emotes are thief mains that wont acknowledge that being able to stealth on demand + mobility is problematic. 

Probably the same people who think thieves r too weak and need buffs, I've read how stupid some of the suggestions were namely the acrobatics traitline. Get real, asking for other traitline buffs and keeping SA the way it is lol."

or

"Any who suggest SA get nerf are immediately shut down namely people like you are right now. Talking about SA nerfs is a taboo for you thief mains for some reason."  and "Fact that thieves ignore how stupid SA is while asking for buffs on other traitline hoping they will keep SA the way it is, thats call greed. "

 

So "divertingthe main subject" isn't something I've started doing it. I'm just pointing out that's exactly what you've did. Apparently @Grebcol.5984 mentioning some ideas for rebalance/nerf doesn't matter "because some other players ask for buffs!"  🤦‍♂️

 

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, since obviously I could have easly miss something important in this great thread, but you've just confirmed that you're going for a strawman in an attempt to pretend that no good balance ideas exist "since some people want buffs".

Lol this is quite hilarious the fact that people are mentioning nerfs on SA is already a trigger word, if truly thieves are asking for SA nerfs this wouldn't be a sensitive word for you to hard defend it. Again I have not said a word on thieves overall needing nerfs infact I advocate on other area's of thieves being buffed. 

The forum thread topic is "Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?" The elephant in the room is that EVERY thief is playing d/p SA. I did not say nerf the other area's in which thieves can apply stealth I went directly to the source of this problem. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

Dude go Online make a Thief and play for 1 Week with D/D or S/P and tell me then how it was. Lul

Again did I say those were the problematic areas? I said D/P SA you are averting the main point, I NEVER said thieves needed further nerfs and I ALSO stated many times thieves need buffs in other areas but needs nerf on SA. Stop proving my point even further at this point you are agreeing to me not disagreeing. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Lol this is quite hilarious the fact that people are mentioning nerfs on SA is already a trigger word, if truly thieves are asking for SA nerfs this wouldn't be a sensitive word for you to hard defend it. Again I have not said a word on thieves overall needing nerfs infact I advocate on other area's of thieves being buffed. 

...how is this a trigger word in any way? What are you even talking about right now? 🤦‍♂️ 

"if thieves..." -it might help you make more sense if you stop treating a class as a group of players with some sort of collective hive mind. Moreover, there are people that don't just "main one class". Mindblowing, I know 😄

Quote

The forum thread topic is "Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?" The elephant in the room is that EVERY thief is playing d/p SA. I did not say nerf the other area's in which thieves can apply stealth I went directly to the source of this problem. 

False btw, but another nice, convenient generalized claim.

But yes, the forum thread topic IS "perma stealth thiefs", which is why I'm pointing out that you're dismissing inconvenient posts of others with your irrelevant claims like "some thieves ask for buffs!". Sure they do! Some players of every class ask for buffs where they don't need/deserve it, but this is irrelevant to anything anywhere -in this thread or any other.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...how is this a trigger word in any way? What are you even talking about right now? 🤦‍♂️ 

Again small quoting a small section of the post in trying to make something that isn't there a thing....are you bored? 

Tunnel vision is real so is selective reading.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...how is this a trigger word in any way? What are you even talking about right now? 🤦‍♂️ 

"if thieves..." -it might help you make more sense if you stop treating a class as a group of players with some sort of collective hive mind. Moreover, there are people that don't just "main one class". Mindblowing, I know 😄

False btw, but another nice, convenient generalized claim.

But yes, the forum thread topic IS "perma stealth thiefs", which is why I'm pointing out that you're dismissing inconvenient posts of others with your irrelevant claims like "some thieves ask for buffs!". Sure they do! Some players of every class ask for buffs where they don't need/deserve it, but this is irrelevant to anything anywhere -in this thread or any other.

Again you are misquoting one section of a whole post I made and making it relevant...boy talk about irrelevant posts. Then again its no surprise in your history of your posts trying to shut down any claims to nerf thieves....🥱

Edited February 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again you are misquoting one section of a whole post I made and making it relevant...boy talk about irrelevant posts.

What did I misquite here (and I quoted/commented on all of it btw)? And, again where did you see any "trigger word"? Please stop using irrelevant buzzwords if you have no reasoning behind them.

Anyways, as you've rightfully mentioned, the thread is about perma stealth, so... time for something on-topic now?

Quote

Then again its no surprise in your history of your posts trying to shut down any claims to nerf thieves....🥱

False, btw. I also proposed a nerf to permastealth in the past, but lets just add this unsubstantiated claim to the previous ones you've made.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Salt Mode.3780]

So D/P SA my whole point of this is not a contributor to perma stealth thieves....lol....cheers.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Right so D/P SA is not contributing to the Perma stealth factor....k....

So much for "selective quoting/responding".

 

And what exactly did you propose about it here that's relevant to the thread instead of being a "d/p thief too strong" complaint?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Burial.1958]

11 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again did I say those were the problematic areas? I said D/P SA you are averting the main point, I NEVER said thieves needed further nerfs and I ALSO stated many times thieves need buffs in other areas but needs nerf on SA. Stop proving my point even further at this point you are agreeing to me not disagreeing. 

 I give up. You missing the point completly. Didn't said that he need further nerfs. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[anduriell.6280]

18 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

I am open to certain changes. The one user who brought up the idea of LoL briefly displaying a veil when hit, I thought was good one. But to completely change a whole class because you have problems with it, is simply not possible and is an insult to the players who have been playing it for years.

You may be open to it but  most mains do not want any changes for thief unless those are plain buffs, I suggested changes to how Stealth works so no other changes (other than buffing the damage for stealth attacks so the increased risk has an adequate reward) are needed. I mean I do also used to play thief very sparsely and I understand thief class is built around the stealth mechanic and also I do understand when I read things like "Thief  does no damage". 

I personally just ask the mechanic has counter-balance embedded in the mechanic itself, to keep away from power creeping the reveal effects as I don't think doing that  is a good approach. In my opinion this would be the less disruptive change, any other like non-removable reveal for long periods is just creeping up the reveal effects and would break the class in my opinion. 

I don't know what argument I can share so it is not seen like I am asking for senseless nerfs. With the changes I offer here not only thief would be more fun to play with minimal changes but also it would fix the annoying stealth druid or trapper DH. And in fact any other future elite with potential to become unfun. 

 

[Sahne.6950]

On 2/10/2022 at 2:16 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Let me just plug something I've suggestef before:

Every second in stealth adds one second of revealed (cannot be removed) upon exiting stealth (no matter how).

Ie a thief can stealth for a minute if he so please... but after that he cannot stealth for a minute.

Let thieves manage their stealth like a resource with a cost. This would be universal to everyone with stealth but would affect those with less stealth minimally (for example if you pop a 3s stealth skill with 30s cd it doesnt matter that you are revealed 3s).

Good idead but again this would be a BIIG nerf to thief...

just imagine you open on someone after you were stealth for 9 seconds.... now you cant stealth for 9 seconds!?!? 9 Seconds in Player versus player environment is a eternity! This would KILL Thief.  being able to not stealth for 4 seconds after a "short" stealth will be a deathsentence most of the time. The idea is good but it would be a HUUUGE nerf for thief.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Dawdler.8521]

47 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Good idead but again this would be a BIIG nerf to thief...

just imagine you open on someone after you were stealth for 9 seconds.... now you cant stealth for 9 seconds!?!? 9 Seconds in Player versus player environment is a eternity! This would KILL Thief.  being able to not stealth for 4 seconds after a "short" stealth will be a deathsentence most of the time. The idea is good but it would be a HUUUGE nerf for thief.

But I do hope you realize the hypocrisy of this argument. 

9 seconds is indeed an eternity in a PvP enviroment. 

But the thief being able to stealth that long is fine.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Good idead but again this would be a BIIG nerf to thief...

just imagine you open on someone after you were stealth for 9 seconds.... now you cant stealth for 9 seconds!?!? 9 Seconds in Player versus player environment is a eternity! This would KILL Thief.  being able to not stealth for 4 seconds after a "short" stealth will be a deathsentence most of the time. The idea is good but it would be a HUUUGE nerf for thief.

So it's completely fine to sit 9s in stealth, but it's problem playing without stealth for 9s?
I'm playing a class without access to stealth on demand for like 10 years now, imagine that, possiblen't.

[Sahne.6950]

2 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

So it's completely fine to sit 9s in stealth, but it's problem playing without stealth for 9s?
I'm playing a class without access to stealth on demand for like 10 years now, imagine that, possiblen't.

but thief is balanced around having stealth. we would need a rework then. literally no defense skills besides shadowfields/stealth and daggerstorm.

[saerni.2584]

The thing that gets me in these discussions is everyone always wants to nerf things in SA that have nothing to do with permastealth gameplay. 
 

People usually also come up with convoluted (unimplementable) suggestions about stealth in general (new kinds of pseudo-stealth, artificial limits on overall stealth duration, removing stealth entirely, stealth revealing based on duration, for example) when the issue is quite obvious and simple.

 

Dagger-Pistol stealth combo with Smoke field and Heartseeker leaps through it (1) cost a lot of initiative, and (2) have a stealth duration per leap that isn't affected by Shadow Arts stealth duration bonus. That means that the thief using this combo can only maintain permanent stealth by using https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow's_Rejuvenation or using a large number of stealth utilities that limit their other utility (I'd still say that without SR a thief will be unable to effectively maintain permastealth while being a credible threat). 
 

Now, that basically means "how do we nerf SR (while not overly hurting thief)" is the only applicable question people should be discussing. But that is almost never the discussion for some reason. A lot of people get heated and accuse thieves of being biased when the thieves responding are skeptical of "remove SA, delete stealth, delete thief" flavor of the week (although those ideas are poorly thought out). And then there are the people who don't mind the "remove SA" type discussion as long as their preferred thief build is buffed to "compensate" (even if their build was already ok and not running SA anyway). 
 

You have one problem with SR. That's the initiative regeneration in stealth. It's a huge bonus. The utility signet adds 1 initiative every 10 seconds. SR adds 1 every 3 seconds. That's a 33% buff to base initiative regeneration in stealth. Effectively, a 33% buff to all weapon cooldowns (which means 33% more skills can be used over time). 
 

That's why I'd suggested in the past making SR's initiative regeneration on initially entering stealth and on landing a stealth attack. You'd  get more initiative than currently possible by going into stealth and immediately leaving stealth by landing stealth attacks. But you wouldn't camp stealth. Camping stealth would get you 1 initiative until you attacked. It's a simple and elegant solution that neither nerfs SR (it can perform on par in non-permastealth gameplay) nor allows permastealth gameplay to persist. 
 

I offer this up for consideration because these massive threads can't pressure Anet to do anything if they don't advocate for concrete and manageable balance changes. No new system, just a straight forward change using already existing mechanics on other traits currently in the game.

[Shining One.1635]

Why do people keep claiming that Thief is dead without access to stealth? I've fought many thieves in the Sandstorm area around Earth Keep over the years. Some I absolutely destroyed, some were good fights that went either way, and some destroyed me, despite not having the ability to stealth at all.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

21 minutes ago, Shining One.1635 said:

Why do people keep claiming that Thief is dead without access to stealth? I've fought many thieves in the Sandstorm area around Earth Keep over the years. Some I absolutely destroyed, some were good fights that went either way, and some destroyed me, despite not having the ability to stealth at all.

Because it carries them so hard in fights that they don't see other tools available for the teef class that are at same level of broken.

[Morena.9312]

7 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Because it carries them so hard in fights that they don't see other tools available for the teef class that are at same level of broken.

 

Of course and that's why we also have such threads like "Thief has to much mobility" aka Shortbow and Shadowsteps. Because they are 100% only carried by stealth and not because they are skilled players. What i can't kill MUST be OP in every case.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

31 minutes ago, Carmela.8756 said:

 

Of course and that's why we also have such threads like "Thief has to much mobility" aka Shortbow and Shadowsteps. Because they are 100% only carried by stealth and not because they are skilled players. What i can't kill MUST be OP in every case.

Yes, I just wrote "other tools available for the teef class that are at same level of broken", did I stutter? I meant exactly their mobility outside of stealth.
They can either sit in stealth forever or run away from anything if they start losing. Teef have to screw up very hard to die and that's the reality of this class.

[Morena.9312]

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Yes, I just wrote "other tools available for the teef class that are at same level of broken", did I stutter? I meant exactly their mobility outside of stealth.
They can either sit in stealth forever or run away from anything if they start losing. Teef have to screw up very hard to die and that's the reality of this class.

The only problematic "Thing" at the moment is this

 then Gyro and your enemy had simply no time for doing anything. When a thief runs away i simply do not care.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Carmela.8756

[Faccina.5091]

just assisted at a 20 vs a permahide daredevil

sic em was useless cuz he did a port/port/port/port/hide and comeback

sniff didnt do anyting

mexicanmanlaughingmeme.webm

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 minutes ago, Faccina.5091 said:

just assisted at a 20 vs a permahide daredevil

sic em was useless cuz he did a port/port/port/port/hide and comeback

sniff didnt do anyting

mexicanmanlaughingmeme.webm

You should just throw few marking paints at him, even though he probably would port out from it's effective radius before projectile would even reach it's destination.
It's working 100% of time, as teef mains claim here, you should believe them too that this is very balanced class. 
/s

[Burial.1958]

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You should just throw few marking paints at him, even though he probably would port out from it's effective radius before projectile would even reach it's destination.
It's working 100% of time, as teef mains claim here, you should believe them too that this is very balanced class. 
/s

You are indeed a trolling Demigod. 

[Zekent.3652]

Aaaw man, reading this post was fun, delusional thief players trying to convince you that the stealth spam is good and not toxic for this game xD

[Zekent.3652]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:38 AM, Shining One.1635 said:

Why do people keep claiming that Thief is dead without access to stealth? I've fought many thieves in the Sandstorm area around Earth Keep over the years. Some I absolutely destroyed, some were good fights that went either way, and some destroyed me, despite not having the ability to stealth at all.

Simple, most of thief players have no idea on what to do outside of SA xD