[PvE] The Alliance Stance as a damage dealer

[Raiken.1476]

The second beta has brought major improvements to the Vindicator, such as damage buffs and the Alliance stance no longer forcing a flip over to the other skill in the slot, which allows it to actually work for both damage and healing builds (so far, in theory). It's finally an alliance instead of two unruly legends bickering over the skill slots at the expense of the Revenant. However, there is one thing that still doesn't quite cut it, and that's the actual Alliance stance skills. Currently, as a damage dealer, your Alliance skills don't do very much damage and your utility suffers greatly - there is not enough space nor enough utility to warrant using the Kurzick side of the Alliance, and the Luxon side is horribly weak.

 

Key issues:

In a PvE DPS context, the Alliance still lacks a solid damage skill. There is not enough energy to cast all of them, Nomad's Advance is far too slow to become the main damage skill, Scavenger Burst is weak, and so is Reaver's Rage. One of the skills, ideally Nomad or Scavenger since they have 3 second cooldowns, should deal more damage so it can become the primary damage dealing skill of the stance, as is Icerazor for the power Renegade. 

Spear of Archemorus still sucks and nothing has changed. It just doesn't do enough, and not just in terms of damage. Why does it torment? There's practically nothing in the Vindicator spec that would make it good for a condition build, not the traits, not the greatsword, and the rest of the Alliance doesn't do enough condition damage. This skill should do something else instead of torment, whether it means helping allies, providing control, or enough damage to actually be worth the energy cost.

Speaking of energy costs, the nerf was a bad idea. The revenant in general is short on energy in a DPS role most of the time, and it doesn't help the Alliance Stance that it has to sacrifice casts of Luxon skills to have enough energy for weapon skills. 

The Vindicator's DPS build still lacks utility. The daze on Scavenger Burst was a nice addition as it now has something at the very least, but it's nowhere near enough. Control is important for a build like power Vindicator, as its DPS tends to shine the most on large hitbox power encounters that tend to require a lot of defiance bar damage. (This is not necessarily about the Alliance only, the greatsword could get the control effect instead as long as the Alliance is worth picking for some reason.) Control doesn't have to be the only form of utility the class gets though - ally support, especially offensive as a DPS, is still valuable. As of the second Vindicator beta, the superior choice for the second stance was Dwarf, since it provides stability and more control for nearly equal damage.

 

Overall, the Vindicator's second beta damage wasn't too awful. It ended up doing about 37k on large hitbox, however, it suffers greatly from it's lack of utility, inability to dodge like other DPS classes, and smaller hitboxes. It doesn't need much in the way of raw damage, perhaps just enough to push the Alliance a bit above Dwarf, but it needs something to alleviate its current selfishness as a damage dealer. Without that, there's not much reason to pick it over classes that do equal or greater damage and bring much more to the team without sacrificing said damage. There are much better selfish builds, and much better utility DPS.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Raiken.1476

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Raiken.1476 said:

Why does it torment?

For whatever reason, the devs seem to be in love with this condition and players that are mainly concerned with their dps usually don't protest about them flooding the game with it.

Personally I think alliance tactic should proc the "when switching legend"/"upon invoking a legend" traits. I believe it would help more than "buffing numbers" on skills that have already relatively "high numbers".

[Raiken.1476]

9 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

For whatever reason, the devs seem to be in love with this condition and players that are mainly concerned with their dps usually don't protest about them flooding the game with it.

Personally I think alliance tactic should proc the "when switching legend"/"upon invoking a legend" traits. I believe it would help more than "buffing numbers" on skills that have already relatively "high numbers".

What traits do you think would become good enough to save the Alliance if F3 would proc them?

[Dadnir.5038]

On 1/8/2022 at 12:24 AM, Raiken.1476 said:

What traits do you think would become good enough to save the Alliance if F3 would proc them?

As far as I know there is power damage on song of the mist, condition damage and power damage on invoking torment, conditions on diabolic inferno, condi transfert on permeating pestilence... etc. The alliance don't need much more.

So, for example, the corruption traitline would allow a better condi option for the this legend in support to scavenger burst's burn and spear of archemorus torment.

For song of the mist, if F3 were to proc, it would be equivalent to increasing this trait's "dps" by 33% (with 3 strikes instead of 2 within a dps cycle)

I'm not talking about making the legend "meta" (as, outside of sPvP, "meta" is a fickle thing which take into account more than the single individual), but at the very least it would be stronger.

[Infusion.7149]

While spear of archemorus is not great at all due to the delay and energy efficiency relative to Nomad's Advance which cleaves 5, it is still used as part of the PVE DPS rotation at least 4 times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czIeKhJ0rQs

Considering the ability to lengthen boons on dodge if you trait it, apply resistance, remove 5 conditions on allies or stunbreak in AOE (which is rare outside Eye of the Storm, Protect me , Bypass Coating, Toss Elixir U : note stability is only proactive not reactive) I wouldn't say it lacks utility. Most of the time you won't be using said utility as a pDPS but similar to  a firebrand by using alliance legend you always have it at your disposal.

I also disagree with your assessment of Alliance skills overall being too weak damage-wise , it's more of Greatsword skills other than Eternity's Requiem being the primary issue (Mist Unleashed is 1.9 coefficient , Phantom's Onslaught with a gap closer is 1.5 coefficient). Nomad's Advance has 3.5 utility coefficient therefore in any scenario Nomad's Advance does more damage than Mist Unleashed , although energy-wise Nomad's Advance costs 20 energy rather than 5. Even if you look at offhand sword , it is 2.75 total coefficient across every hit on Shackling Wave or 2.33 for the whole Deathstrike chain. Compared to Glint, it has higher damage than Elemental Blast which pulses across 3 pulses for total 3.45 utility coefficient.  Even comparing to Shiro for example, Phase Transversal has 2.0 utility coefficient, with Impossible Odds' 6 energy degen and 0.55 utility coefficient it only pays off if you use a multi-hit skill such as Eternity's Requiem.

Likewise Scavenger Burst's main usage would be fury/personal quickness as opposed to damage. The damage coefficient is a respectable 2.25 utility coefficient right now so if it were for example 10 or 15 energy then with the current 3 second cooldown it is serviceable. The last beta suggests Arenanet headed in the opposite direction with the skill, increasing the damage and energy cost from 15 to 20 while lowing cooldown from 10 to 3.

In my opinion Eternity's Requiem should hit more times and for less total damage as it increases variance of the build due to hitbox reliance and RNG. Its function should be primarily cleaving trash mobs and ranged damage pressure due to the RNG and 900 range. Skills such as Whirling Axe (15x), Whirling Defense (12x), Barrage (12x), Procession of Blades (10x), Laser Disk (12x), Shredder Gyro (12x), Soul Spiral (12x) are examples of those cleave skills. (If you look at Icerazor's Ire on renegade, one of the primary synergies on power renegade is due to the fact it hits 20 times for total 6.0 utility coefficient and 30 energy.) Mist Unleashed could probably be adjusted higher to around 2.5 coefficient as it has no functionality other than damage (see Decapitate on Berserker as well which provides might). An adjustment to Mist Unleash in this fashion would bump up DPS by ~1.2K DPS and benefit any vindicator build with a greatsword rather than solely those using Alliance stance. This way your skillbar would be:
1 = auto (0.9+1.0+1.25)
2 = PBAOE , high damage
3 = gap closer with 900 range
4 = block / riposte style attack similar to ranger greatsword , guardian mace, or mesmer offhand sword
5 = 900 ranged AOE cleave with lower damage as opposed to a main damage source

In the meantime the best way for Arenanet to solidify Vindicator as revenant's DPS spec is actually to nerf Renegade damage a bit back to where it was before torment changes (~33K condi RR, ~37K cDPS).

Edited January 9, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Raiken.1476]

On 1/9/2022 at 8:41 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

While spear of archemorus is not great at all due to the delay and energy efficiency relative to Nomad's Advance which cleaves 5, it is still used as part of the PVE DPS rotation at least 4 times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czIeKhJ0rQs

 

There's just no better option. It's bad and the rest is worse.

Considering the ability to lengthen boons on dodge if you trait it, apply resistance, remove 5 conditions on allies or stunbreak in AOE (which is rare outside Eye of the Storm, Protect me , Bypass Coating, Toss Elixir U : note stability is only proactive not reactive) I wouldn't say it lacks utility. Most of the time you won't be using said utility as a pDPS but similar to  a firebrand by using alliance legend you always have it at your disposal.

 

It's part of why I specified "as a damage dealer". It's the only role Vindicator as a whole is suited to, and the utility doesn't help much there.

I also disagree with your assessment of Alliance skills overall being too weak damage-wise , it's more of Greatsword skills other than Eternity's Requiem being the primary issue (Mist Unleashed is 1.9 coefficient , Phantom's Onslaught with a gap closer is 1.5 coefficient). Nomad's Advance has 3.5 utility coefficient therefore in any scenario Nomad's Advance does more damage than Mist Unleashed , although energy-wise Nomad's Advance costs 20 energy rather than 5. Even if you look at offhand sword , it is 2.75 total coefficient across every hit on Shackling Wave or 2.33 for the whole Deathstrike chain. Compared to Glint, it has higher damage than Elemental Blast which pulses across 3 pulses for total 3.45 utility coefficient.  Even comparing to Shiro for example, Phase Transversal has 2.0 utility coefficient, with Impossible Odds' 6 energy degen and 0.55 utility coefficient it only pays off if you use a multi-hit skill such as Eternity's Requiem.

 

Nomad's Advance is not fast enough for 3.5 to be strong. Greatsword's damage balance is pretty lopsided in favor of Eternity's Requiem, but overall, it's pretty much fine. I could get behind moving some from that to Mist Unleashed.

Likewise Scavenger Burst's main usage would be fury/personal quickness as opposed to damage. The damage coefficient is a respectable 2.25 utility coefficient right now so if it were for example 10 or 15 energy then with the current 3 second cooldown it is serviceable. The last beta suggests Arenanet headed in the opposite direction with the skill, increasing the damage and energy cost from 15 to 20 while lowing cooldown from 10 to 3.

 

With that the Alliance still lacks the main damaging skill to use its energy on for DPS, its "own version of Icerazor".

In my opinion Eternity's Requiem should hit more times and for less total damage as it increases variance of the build due to hitbox reliance and RNG. Its function should be primarily cleaving trash mobs and ranged damage pressure due to the RNG and 900 range. Skills such as Whirling Axe (15x), Whirling Defense (12x), Barrage (12x), Procession of Blades (10x), Laser Disk (12x), Shredder Gyro (12x), Soul Spiral (12x) are examples of those cleave skills. (If you look at Icerazor's Ire on renegade, one of the primary synergies on power renegade is due to the fact it hits 20 times for total 6.0 utility coefficient and 30 energy.) Mist Unleashed could probably be adjusted higher to around 2.5 coefficient as it has no functionality other than damage (see Decapitate on Berserker as well which provides might). An adjustment to Mist Unleash in this fashion would bump up DPS by ~1.2K DPS and benefit any vindicator build with a greatsword rather than solely those using Alliance stance. This way your skillbar would be:
1 = auto (0.9+1.0+1.25)
2 = PBAOE , high damage
3 = gap closer with 900 range
4 = block / riposte style attack similar to ranger greatsword , guardian mace, or mesmer offhand sword
5 = 900 ranged AOE cleave with lower damage as opposed to a main damage source

In the meantime the best way for Arenanet to solidify Vindicator as revenant's DPS spec is actually to nerf Renegade damage a bit back to where it was before torment changes (~33K condi RR, ~37K cDPS).

What about all the other classes that are also far better?

Replies in quote. I still don't see a reason to run Alliance over Dwarf as a DPS in that post.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Raiken.1476

[Zenith.7301]

37k DPS parse as a spec with very little utility and CC is pretty mediocre, but at least it's not trash tier like Reaper.

 

I think the single dodge will be a problem on some encounters.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Raiken.1476 said:

Replies in quote. I still don't see a reason to run Alliance over Dwarf as a DPS in that post.

The places you definitely run power over condi ren you would rather have hard CC (see VG with +35% power bonus, KC with +35% power bonus, CA), which alliance stance does provide with far less penalty to damage. Taunt is 75 CC per second and slow is 50CC per second, with a power build it is 500 total soft CC after 4 seconds.

Anywhere there is more than one target you would also get added value from alliance skills, particularly the quickness/might generation.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Jthug.9506]

Camping gs seems pretty viable, so if you are really hard up for more cc consider staff. Nomad’s advance hits hard as a truck. I do feel a bit boxed in with build diversity because of the lack of crit chance vs ren, but overall I think if they tune up and make the spear more reliable I am actually pretty kitten happy with the state of the class.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:21 PM, Jthug.9506 said:

Camping gs seems pretty viable, so if you are really hard up for more cc consider staff. Nomad’s advance hits hard as a truck. I do feel a bit boxed in with build diversity because of the lack of crit chance vs ren, but overall I think if they tune up and make the spear more reliable I am actually pretty kitten happy with the state of the class.

power builds with aliance/shiro or jalis seams very interesting imo

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAIFldQmMH6k1QpsHCl9RqsAqkl1la0D-zVIYRUxPENLAVDA-w

 

a portal bomb  plus some fully buffed Rev with death drop to phase smash on landing might be like be under a Space marine landing pod  :D

Edited January 18, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[The Boz.2038]

I'm... kinda not feeling the alliance legends here.

A classic Shiro/Jalis with a greatsword can, I think, work wonders, just needs comfier access to fury. Any legend and Alliance? Eh.

[Zenith.7301]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:11 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

I'm... kinda not feeling the alliance legends here.

A classic Shiro/Jalis with a greatsword can, I think, work wonders, just needs comfier access to fury. Any legend and Alliance? Eh.

 

 

Because Alliance skills are absolutely bland and uninspired, on top of being garbage because they copied reaper shouts mechanics of scaling effects on targets hit for redundant boons that are stacked by supports in PvE anyways.

 

Imagine grabbing a utility line nobody uses because it's terrible -- reaper shouts-- and copying it over to another class. Totally clueless design.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think it makes sense to view The Alliance spec as a damage dealer OR a Healer ... it's designed to use both and you CAN use both. It's a weird take to disregard a significant portion of what the spec does ... then claim the remainder is deficient. 

The advantage of Alliances is the design around 5 targets and its broader access to useful features that are BOTH DPS and sustain. If think about using the spec to do things it's not specifically designed to do, then it's pretty easy  to conclude it doesn't do those things very well.

The two issues the OP mentions ... not really correct

1. Specs can still have very good DPS even if they don't have a 'solid damage skill'. In fact, I would argue that it's PREFERABLE to have lots of good DPS skills and NOT have a single solid damage skill. 

2. Vindicator doesn't have utility as a DPS build? That's just wrong. What utility does it NOT have access to? This claim doesn't make much sense if you consider the bandwidth y that is open  to take utility choices.

On 1/18/2022 at 8:12 AM, Aeolus.3615 said:

power builds with aliance/shiro or jalis seams very interesting imo

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAIFldQmMH6k1QpsHCl9RqsAqkl1la0D-zVIYRUxPENLAVDA-w

Absolutely ... anet has made it VERY easy for even the most simple player to get access to good damage on Alliances. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Thon.3780]

Just my opinion.  All  Elite are not much different whether you make pure damage or condi

for heal . The method of heal is different. Regen,. Pulse. Area. Can move or station.

For damage just the way it do damage

Glint : buff pulse +little fire.   Low energy use high cd 20sec

kalla : interrupt. Multishot , bleed. . Seem E use are between glint and Ally  cd 12-15 sec

ally : fire , quickness ,  ( will give powerful buff if you jump into mops) ,   But use a lot energy  low cd

[Zaret.1450]

scavenger and spear dont need the condis, we already have renegade for condis, we dont need condis in every fking elite dammit im tired of condi revenant, also why is it allwais revenant that gets the (you need huge hitbox enemies to get good dmg?)   come on put those skills on warrior or guardian, no? then just get out numbers on small hitbox to 38 and on huge hitbox on 45k, then it would be balanced dammit, cc? im sure someone will say " but you have staff" staff? that thing that even devs dont know what to use it except for cc and for evading dmg with the 3? at least make it a good healing weapon or smth, out of staff? jade winds is like one os the worst elite skills out there with ventary and a couple more out there, just make gs3 pull, its a dash with a circle hit animation at the end, make it no dmg and pull people around you and voila, a great skill for pvp, pve and wvw, it wasnt that difficult.