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4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

their balance is obviously not working.

Whether someone thinks it works or not depends on perspective ... it works for some people and not for others. There isn't an absolute point of satisfaction here. 

Whether it actually works is part of a complex question about what Anet's criteria and targets are ... and you don't know those things unless they tell you. 

You problem here is that you are holding your balancing ideal to the same importance of Anet's ... but that 's not real because the balancing ideals of players isn't relevant to how the game is balanced.

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It seems like you guys only want us playing 3 classes.  So why not just get rid of the others, huh?  Or maybe a balance pass some time sooner rather than later?  Sorry, I know you got your hands full

I'll run the translation for those who can't get past taking every word literally. "These classes are not balanced.  Please address."

You're right.  It is a cycle.  One that I am reminding them has been moving in slow-to-no-motion for some time now.

39 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Whether someone thinks it works or not depends on perspective ... it works for some people and not for others. There isn't an absolute point of satisfaction here. 

Whether it actually works is part of a complex question about what Anet's criteria and targets are ... and you don't know those things unless they tell you. 

Correction. 

It doesn't affect some 

And doesn't work for others. 

People who only do meta events, open world content, story, map completion and achievements could play the worst build and proffession possible but be absolutely fine. 

If your trying to say balance is ensuring every proffession reachs a certain bar, that's not balance.. balancing is the active adjusting of choices to shrink the gap between each choice. 

What they have done is throw a 3k DPS requirement on open world content and ensure the worst option possible is capable of atleast that 

But we are in a game where 40k DPS is the benchmarks. So that's a no brainer. It would be physically harder to release something bad at it then decent. 

And when something underperforms they just throw new gear stats to carry I.E trailblazers and tempest. 

Power creeping the game isn't balancing. Nor is it healthy. If open world content was upped to today's requirements and standards. You'd have a very different tune 

I would argue they actually should. 

- Shorten times to kill world bosses. 

- increase health pools and mechanics. 

So when there's a issue. The open world players can also screech about the imbalances of the game. 

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7 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

If your trying to say balance is ensuring every proffession reachs a certain bar, that's not balance.. balancing is the active adjusting of choices to shrink the gap between each choice. 

What they have done is throw a 3k DPS requirement on open world content and ensure the worst option possible is capable of atleast that 

But we are in a game where 40k DPS is the benchmarks. So that's a no brainer. It would be physically harder to release something bad at it then decent. 

 

But I'm not debating what balance should be or how they should change the game. You keep getting away from the points here. 

I'm telling you the relevant definition of balance is whatever Anet decides it's targeting. If you are using your own ideal to measure Anet balancing 'success', that measure is irrelevant because it's highly unlikely Anet's target is close to your ideal. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

But I'm not debating what balance should be. I'm telling you the relevant definition of balance is whatever Anet decides it's targeting. If you are using your own ideal to measure Anet balancing 'success'. that measure is irrelevant. 

No your attempting to defend anets actions with strawman arguments. Massive difference realistically. 

"Balance" isn't a opinon. "Balance isnt up for debate". "Balance isnt one of many definition* it's factual, it's set in stone, it's across the entire genre of gaming held the same meaning. 

And no I don't need to use my own ideals to measure anets balancing success. 

- games losing popularity by the month. 

- every player has the exact same problems. These are vocalised even in the game by players who aren't on these forums. 

Go to the PvP lobby. Ask people's opinons of necromancer. See if a single player says they're not overpowered. 

- games competitive modes and group modes are declining. 

- continous power creep required to keep speccs viable. 

Or your next statement gonna try tell me that game balance has nothing to do with the player loss? Even tho Reddit alone has hundreds of posts from players quitting the game because of the balance? 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No your attempting to defend anets actions with strawman arguments.

No. I'm not defending anything because there is no outcome here based on the discussion. I'm just saying how it works based on what they tell us. Apparently, you think that's all lie to sell gems or whatever. 

You're right balance isn't an opinion ... in this game, it's based on Anet's targets and criteria. You might not like that or it's result ... but that's the reality. Some people don't have a problem with that reality, some people do. 

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5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No. that's not true. I'm not defending anything. I'm just saying how it works based on what they tell us. 

No. Because Anet Devs have on several occasions gone on record and admitted gw2 isn't balanced. 

CMC was on discord with teapot on a stream memeing about the games current condition litterally. 

What Anet tells us is they know the game isn't balanced. 

Anets post made it clear they intend to significantly shift the balance after EoD launch of current core speccs and PoF and HoT elites. 

CMC has gone on record to say firebrand and scourge are bad for the game. And has stated he believes current elites power creep has worsened the game. 

The new elite design and what they say about their design shows us they know HoT and PoF elites were a mess up and have steered down a different design philosophy when it comes to designing a elite. 

I.E large trade offs. Keeping them competitive with core speccs and not just power creeping them. 

What Anet Devs on the BALANCE TEAM. Not the support team or the forum team. The physical people responsible for the balancing of the game. Say that the current balance is a mess and they aknowledge severe changes need to be made. 

However have delayed those changes til after EoD. 

Go actually watch these interviews with the Devs before saying what they're communicating 

Hence why. 

- New elites are all 5 man boons and the sight is to reduce all current elites to 5 man boons. 

- hence why anything that's passed 40k saw harsh nerfing in second beta wave 

- hence why none of the mechanics are overbloated and more simplistic. 

- hence why half the forums screeching they don't think they have a new mechanic. 

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6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No. Because Anet Devs have on several occasions gone on record and admitted gw2 isn't balanced. 

Hold on ... you need to go back and read my point. I am NOT saying the game is balanced; I've NEVER said that. The fact that Anet still creates balance patches and tells us why they are making those class changes is an indication the game isn't balanced. You need to stick with the points people make when you want to dispute things they say (ironically, you are accusing ME of the strawman ... 🙄

I'm saying that the relevant definition of GW2 balance is based on what Anet decides it will be, not what players impose on the game for what they want it to be. 

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... you need to go back and read my point. I am NOT saying the game is balanced. 

No but Ur saying Anet maybe balancing it to a different audience. 

I'm telling no. Anet Devs have gone on record and agreed with the players. We know they also think the games unbalanced. 

They know necromancer is overused and they know firebrand and scourge are the most played things by far.

They were on the numbers with teapot. They looked at the current metas they talked through it.

They aren't targeting anyone with balance changes. 

Anet did a 180 on rebalancing the game in favour of focus on the new expansion. We know this because they wrote a whole article on it. 

The issue is some of us aren't happy with the lack of clarity surrounding the goals and aims of EoD. 

They've delayed the core and current elites balancing til after EoD but are having us test new speccs which are obviously built with these unseen change sthey intend for them to be equal. 

How can we possible know if changes really need to happen if we don't have a whole picture. 

For example if Anet would just confirm they goals with these new speccs and significant balance changes it would aid in being able to understand some the decisions they've made with the new elites. Possibly to why they changed exposed. And the overall goals they want. 

 

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3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No but Ur saying Anet maybe balancing it to a different audience. 

No, I didn't say that either ... please stop inventing things I didn't say. I'm being VERY clear here:

The relevant definition of GW2class  balance is based on what Anet decides it will be, not what players impose on the game for what they want it to be. I'm making NO comments about how well they are doing that or any measure of how well received that is by players. Whether they are successful at doing that or not is based on their own criteria, not the ones players impose on the game. 

Quote

I'm telling no. Anet Devs have gone on record and agreed with the players. We know they also think the games unbalanced. 

It's evident you aren't  reading my posts ... I AGREED that the game isn't balanced ... so you are telling me I'm wrong about that??? 🤣

 

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On 1/13/2022 at 3:47 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Ironically actually it isnt a Balance issue as Such. this is a Player perception issue. Announcing something as a Top level player ironically causes Movements like this, with like Half the videos surrounding the game being Teapot Screeching how Utility proffessions Carry raids and Fractal groups and How Strong Scourge is how strong Firebrand is and More are we suprised the words catching on and People are pouring into these proffessions?

Scourge x 2 firebrand x2 and Renegade Is Not the Strongest fractal build. the Fastest Fractal clear is actually 3x Soubeast 1x Renegade 1x Dragonhunter thats the Actual Meta from a DPS Point of view. the issue is the Scourge x2 Firebrandx2 and Renegade is a extremely safe comp to play with a Lower Mechanical Skill requirement which appeals far more to Pugs.

you could nerf that Meta, but unless ur gonna Tear something Real out of the comp it wont change anything.

People play. What earns Rewards the Easiest, and the Condi comp is Just safer, however its Statistically not actually stronger which Logs and kill times prove Quite quickly.

ontop of this, by nature the most Popular proffessions are gonna be the most popular proffessions in content, its a No brainer... these proffessions swallow over 70% of the playerbase Alone, there arent enough of the other 6 proffessions to realistically sway that number.

and we cant say "jkust cause their faceroll to play" as Warrior and Ranger are also both proffessions with a Low skill floor yet pale in comparison even tho technically Ranger is actually Stronger in Fractals then Necromancer, People generally arent playing it anymore.

If u wanna Destroy that Comp ur gonna have to Dismantle parts of their kit.

- Make Taking barrier a Stronger nerf to Scourges DPS. maybe Strip out the Damage from Shades at Core and rework one of the traits on the same row as Barrier which puts the Damage onto the Shades. so u either choose Offensive or Defensive Shades.

- Drop Renegade to 5 man Alacrity + BNalance it out to end the RR Renegade Period. force Renegade to comitt to a boon specc for 100% uptime on it.

- Rip Quickness out of FIrebrand. it Outclasses every Qucikness Option because it stacks Aegis and Stab ontop of it. Firebrand has enough 5man Power to Be a Wanted proffession without it and if we are to beleive they intend to Drop all boons to 5man.. this is a HUGE buff to Firebrand in Raid enviroments... HFB / Condi Firebrand with their utility and Stab/Aegis Uptime will be enough to create demand, so Removign Quickness is the No Brainer.

- revert the Exposed Mechanic Changes that came in the last major Patch. revert the buffs it caused to burst Condi.

these 4 Changes would likely be enough to Force a Power Meta back in, which would effectively end all 4 of these Speccs, although i'd Argue in this meta Anet would likely need to make Some changes to Reaper or do it After Harbinger launchs because it'd be bad for necro if we go into a Power Meta while necromancer has no strong Power Options.

heres the fact

If someone asks

New Player looking to Solo content. the vast majority reply with "Play Necromancer"

New Player asks for a Versatile proffesion for PvE End game people reply with "Play Guardian"

New Player Asks for a Good PvP Proffession people reply with "Renegade, Holosmith or Necromancer".

new Player asks What to play if they wanna do everything people reply with "Guardian".

If they go into Streams People are calling These proffessions Overpowered, if they go on youtube theres TONS of videos Surrounding these 3 proffessions and if u look through the lists these 3 are just more popular among streamers.

Now, engineer by default in all games is a Underpopulated Proffession, its just not one that takes the heart of many essentially although holosmith did wonders for the popularity of the specc, it was never gonna be enough.

We boil it down to The Reply to every Question on what proffession to play as "Revenant Guardian or Necromancer". Which means We're driving the playerbase into the 3 Proffessions and then complaining everyones playing those proffessions The Balance of the game isnt driving these 3 proffessions (Barring Renegade. that just is meta in every Raid/Group due to 10 man Alacrity). Scourge isnt Meta in any content. but its a Safe pick for players in PuG enviroments, Firebrand is 5man meta but falls off in Raids so they do fall short someone realistically. but the exposed mechanic made stacking this proffession a Safe Option too.

So yeah, even as someone who plays Necro, you need to remove the Safety of this build if u want to undo the problem. Exposed needs Reverting.. Necro needs a proper DPS Loss for taking Barrier. Firebrand needs to lose Quickness and Revenant needs Nerfs to its Alacrity to stop the RR Renegade build.

No, just no.  You can blame the players all you want, but they're just working with what they're given. And what they're given is op kits on firebrand, renegade, and scourge.  It's not like if we told everyone to play elementalist the meta would shift to all ele comps.  They have to actually deliver and these 3 specs absolutely do!

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7 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but the new elites are weaker then Current Elite options?.

and well yeah.. i think at this point it pretty much is Years before any serious changes are made so far. EoD isnt desperation, but we have to remmeber Anet have Laid off ALOT of its team, they likely dont have the staff to work on multiple things at the same time anymore realistically.

and given the team was even smaller then it is now since a few months when introducing a new team effectively things would have been moving even slower.

Im afraid when a company almost collasps and the game almost got entirely died it's gonna take a long while to get anything back realistically.

unless we're talking about the outliers (Catalyst in beta 4 etc etc) Which we know will bbe nerfed. the new elites are actually worse compared to the PoF Elites at minimum. at what point would u use willbender over firebrand, Harbinger over Scourge?

The Elites would need bringing down to EoD / Cores Level not the other way around

In the eyes of pve they are not weaker they do a LOT more dps in pve environment as well as bring important boons that the classes could not. Now they are weaker in pvp / wvw but that has more to do with bad balancing set up in the curent game types. That why there a real chase that we are going to go from 3 meta classes to just 2.

And before them where we getting updates like the big one in a normal way. Anet always has problems putting out updates in a timely way.

The game maker almost collapsed because it was working on other games at the same time that was all for nothing. Anet trying to run away from gw2 nearly killed them and caused them to lose a lot of ppl.

These classes do more dps in pve so maybe?

 

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12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, I didn't say that either ... please stop inventing things I didn't say. I'm being VERY clear here:

The relevant definition of GW2class  balance is based on what Anet decides it will be, not what players impose on the game for what they want it to be. I'm making NO comments about how well they are doing that or any measure of how well received that is by players. Whether they are successful at doing that or not is based on their own criteria, not the ones players impose on the game. 

It's evident you aren't  reading my posts ... I AGREED that the game isn't balanced ... so you are telling me I'm wrong about that??? 🤣

 

No what I'm saying is, if the Devs are stating the game isn't balanced then they by their own definition clearly haven't balanced it 

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17 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Go to the PvP lobby. Ask people's opinons.

I think there is a big thing that you miss here with this argument and that is that the current state of sPvP is 99.99% due to sPvP peoples opinion.

If anything you should never listen to sPvP peoples opinions about balance because those opinions are biased and often come from the frustration of a sore loser that have been defeated.

  1. There are useless 300s CD traits in game because of sPvP peoples opinions.
  2. The damage in competitive modes is low because of sPvP peoples opinions (and thus the necromancer's survivability is high for the same reason).
  3. Hard CC don't do damage because of sPvP opinions.
  4. There is a lower choice of statset/runeset (and thus build diversity) in sPvP because of sPvP peoples opinions
  5. ... etc.

Never ever use a "ask people's opinions in the PvP lobby" as a valid argument for anything as those "opinions" are the one that got PvP poor balance state where it currently stand. The PvP lobby is a treasure trove of bad ideas and opinions that unfortunately come to fruition way to many time.

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10 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No what I'm saying is, if the Devs are stating the game isn't balanced then they by their own definition clearly haven't balanced it 

OK ...  and it's certainly not a reason to tell me I'm wrong about the point I'm making because whether is the game is balanced or not is irrelevant to my point. I mean, you are telling me I'm wrong, then you start saying things that have nothing to do with the point your attempting to disprove ... and then for a cherry on the top, you accuse ME of strawmanning. Sure. So here we are. I'm not going to be misunderstood here because what I'm telling you isn't disputable. 

The relevant definition of GW2 class  balance is based on what Anet decides it will be, not what players impose on the game for what they want it to be. Whether they are successful at doing that or not is based on their own criteria, not the ones players impose on the game. 

That has NOTHING to do with whether the current game state is balanced or not. Now, you might not LIKE the current state or how Anet does balance ... that's fine but people need to stop pretending their personal standards for balance are the ones Anet has to achieve. That's impossible. 

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10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think there is a big thing that you miss here with this argument and that is that the current state of sPvP is 99.99% due to sPvP peoples opinion.

If anything you should never listen to sPvP peoples opinions about balance because those opinions are biased and often come from the frustration of a sore loser that have been defeated.

  1. There are useless 300s CD traits in game because of sPvP peoples opinions.
  2. The damage in competitive modes is low because of sPvP peoples opinions (and thus the necromancer's survivability is high for the same reason).
  3. Hard CC don't do damage because of sPvP opinions.
  4. There is a lower choice of statset/runeset (and thus build diversity) in sPvP because of sPvP peoples opinions
  5. ... etc.

Never ever use a "ask people's opinions in the PvP lobby" as a valid argument for anything as those "opinions" are the one that got PvP poor balance state where it currently stand. The PvP lobby is a treasure trove of bad ideas and opinions that unfortunately come to fruition way to many time.

While true my point was, even if the critea of anets balancing was ignoring top level players and making average games feel better as a example. 

No ones currently happy. It isn't just the elitists, the high ranked, or the pro level players only who are complaining about current balancing problems. 

Players at every rank are currently unhappy. 

However yeah. Asking a bronze - gold player on balance is unlikely to yield good feedback realistically. 

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5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The relevant definition of GW2 class  balance is based on what Anet decides it will be, not what players impose on the game for what they want it to be. Whether they are successful at doing that or not is based on their own criteria, not the ones players impose on the game

If This was happening. Dadnir wouldn't have a list of things the playerbase pressed for as current problems of the game. 

Anet clearly are implementing what players are imposing on. Hence why there's problems. 

You can't take the opinons of balance from a group of meta event farmers and some silver - gold players and actually implement them. Because it's obviously gonna go sour. 

Problem is Anet haven't learnt that yet so ring circles around the same problems again and again. 

The reason this games so lopsided is due to this. If Anet were ignoring player feedback the game would likely be more balanced based on their own decisions 

 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

If This was happening. Dadnir wouldn't have a list of things the playerbase pressed for as current problems of the game. 

That doesn't make sense. The things that Dadnir listed are most definitely things that Anet implemented on purpose, despite whatever players think about them ... which is actually evidence that what I'm telling you is true.

Anet decides how the game works, implements their changes and measures their success doing so, independent of whatever things players want to complain about. In otherwords, players complain about things is not evidence Anet is not balancing things how they want and measuring that based on their own metrics, not the ones players impose on them. 

You keep trying to establish this relationship between how players think the game should work and how the game is implemented ... but it doesn't exist. There is no narrative where you prove Anet's approach is wrong because it's not what some players want. Again this game is not designed by players voting. The game can't be made to order for individuals. 

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31 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. The things that Dadnir listed are most definitely things that Anet implemented on purpose, despite whatever players think about them ... which is actually evidence that what I'm telling you is true

But it does. 

If players ask for a change and then Anet implement that change. That didn't make a change based on their decisions.

They made a change the community requested. The fact it turned out to be a bad change is due to the fact the players they listened to were clearly not qualified to be listened to. 

Anet did implement them on purpose because of the feedback given... If Anet were making changes they want regardless of players opinons. They wouldn't rip changes directly out of from feedback and implement them. 

They obviously to a degree do allow players to impose on decisions. The problem is you can't listen to every players feedback and just implement everything asked for. It gets messy 

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24 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

If players ask for a change and then Anet implement that change. That didn't make a change based on their decisions.

 

That's not true because if Anet implements a player suggested change, they still made the decision to do it.

In the case of the things Dadnir listed, what I'm saying is true ... 

Anet decides how the game works, implements their changes and measures their success doing so, independent of whatever things players want to complain about. In otherwords, players complain about things is not evidence Anet is not balancing things how they want and measuring that based on their own metrics, not the ones players impose on them. 

... because "Hey, 300 second CD's is a great idea" said no player EVER. 

I can ASSURE you that if their a change to the game, Anet makes that decision. Any narrative you are going to create that indicates Anet makes changes to the game that they do not decide to make is categorically WRONG. 

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4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's not true because if Anet implements a player suggested change, they still made the decision to do it.

In the case of the things Dadnir listed, what I'm saying is true ... 

Anet decides how the game works, implements their changes and measures their success doing so, independent of whatever things players want to complain about. In otherwords, players complain about things is not evidence Anet is not balancing things how they want and measuring that based on their own metrics, not the ones players impose on them. 

... because "Hey, 300 second CD's is a great idea" said no player EVER. 

I can ASSURE you that if their a change to the game, Anet makes that decision. Any narrative you are going to create that indicates Anet makes changes to the game that they do not decide to make is categorically WRONG. 

It isn't catagorically wrong. It's still player imposed. 

And to balance the game to any success

Hold Ur horses, How about they do a balance patch first 

Anet will launch things that they think will sell, they don't do things because they "want" To.. that's not how a job works. 

I don't go to work and provide the work to a service I desire. I go to work and provide a service to the companies standard. 

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4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

It isn't catagorically wrong. It's still player imposed. 

No, that's not true. NO change in the game is player imposed because players can't impose changes on the game. Changes only happen in the game if Anet decides they do. 

I have to ask ... do you know what the word impose means?

 

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11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

... because "Hey, 300 second CD's is a great idea" said no player EVER.

Players said: "Hey those effect are bad for sPvP, please remove them"

The devs first answered: "Ok, we will make them less attractive until we find something better to put there" (because, yes, it was announced to be a temporary mesure at first)

2 years later the devs are like: "Isn't this a feature? Let's put 1 more of those in game on a new e-spec."

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9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not true. NO change in the game is player imposed because players can't impose changes on the game. Changes only happen in the game if Anet decides they do. 

I have to ask ... do you know what the word impose means?

 

Anet will decide to make any change that is popular. 🤦 

If a playerbase large enough gets behind a idea, Anet will likely implement it or something alike it, they are selling us a product, they are providing a live service they want us to invest in. 

Stop acting like this is the Devs hobby. 

It isn't. They are paid to sell us a product.

Everything they do will be in neutral stand point and be to sell us the product. 

Changes made will always be aimed to be those that are popular in the community not always want they personally agree with. 

CMC doesn't sit there stating scourge, renegade and firebrand are disgustingly overpowered while actively not doing anything to change it because "he's decided to not nerf it". 

CMC knows the level of backlash it would cause to nerf these proffessions right now just before a expansion and likely will wait for the "new toys" hype to start before making changes to those things. 

If they start gun blazing making alterations and changes they want, the possibility is they could either damage or kill their own game just before a expansion launch... U can't just tear down the top 3 most popular builds and think "eh players will reroll"

Some of them won't reroll, some of them will quit. Take breaks or move games. So they won't do it. 

Just because Anet make a change doesn't mean every Dev on the board agrees with it or wants it, when you hear them in discords and discussion u can see there's plenty of changes they want to do yet haven't. 

I doubt we will see a balance patch the Devs want to do til after EoD launch. And that's because it's likely to cause upset and hopefully with new elites and content it will minimize the immediate backlash. 

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1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Anet will decide to make any change that is popular. 🤦 

 

Anet will make any change they decide to make, popular or not. Nothing is imposed on them to do so. If there is a change, it's because Anet decided to make it. 

For example, 300 second CD's were something Anet decided to implement. I can assure you no player EVER thought this was a popular change to make. 

I'm not going to argue with you what Anet's reasons are to make these decisions (I don't have to ... they tell us what some of those are) ... it has nothing to do with my point that Anet's methods for balancing the game are what is relevant here, not players ideals. 

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14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet will make any change they decide to make, popular or not. Nothing is imposed on them to do so. If there is a change, it's because Anet decided to make it. 

For example, 300 second CD's were something Anet decided to implement. I can assure you no player EVER thought this was a popular change to make. 

I'm not going to argue with you what Anet's reasons are to make these decisions ... it has nothing to do with my point that you disagreed with from the beginning. I'm just going to keep pulling you back on track. 

U aren't pulling anyone on track 😂😂

Why half the forums call you a troll. And no, Anet won't make unpopular changes. If you honestly beleive Anet wants to enrage it's players your ridiculous. 

Making unpopular changes = unhappy customers = declining popularity. 

Sales are above anything. Your just arguing based on a focus which obviously will never been black and white written by Anet. 

And yes the 300second CDs were popular lol, not among the people on forums or the people who are competitively higher then the average. 

The 300 second CDa were introduced as a temporary fix to what the large majority (the average players) were enraged about. 

People don't like the fact the 300 second CDs are still here 2 years later however because they were susposed to be a temporary fix that got reworked to be proper traits. 

The initial change wasn't unpopular, the fact they never followed up on the objective grew to be unpopular. 

Same reason I am not worried about harbinger or willbender come EoD. I will critize their last seen state. And I don't like the fact guardian had alacrity in the most annoying way tacked onto it. But I'm pretty certain they won't be the next scrapper waiting 2 years for a real rework. 

I don't beleive Anet will seriously screw over proffessions which hold 60% of the playerbase.. not long term atleast they'd be mental to chance their sales on doing so 

 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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