MSGA! (Make Stances Great Again!)

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I want to like Stances.  I really do.  They have some promising concepts, but most are hamstrung by over-long CDs.  So in the interest of making these skills more usable in all game modes, here are my proposed changes below.  I see no reason for competitive splits on these particular skills, so the proposed changes are for PvE too.

 

1.  Berserker Stance

Gain Adrenaline (7), Resistance (1s), and cleanse one condition each second

Duration: 4s, pulses each second

CD 30s

Maybe, just maybe, could provide an alternative to Shake It Off, at least as far as condition cleanses go.  The lower CD would make it ideal for helping Berserkers get into Berserk mode quickly off CD.

 

2. Balanced Stance

Same as it is, just reduce CD to 40s in all game modes

Honestly, there is no reason for this to be 60s.  It's good, but it's definitely not that good.  Compare it to Ranger's Dolyak Stance, for instance...DS is head and shoulders better but has the same CD (in PvP).

 

3.  Endure Pain:

Same as it is, just reduce CD to 40s in all game modes

Same rationale as Balanced Stance

 

4.  Frenzy

Breaks stun

Gain 10 Might

Gain quickness for 2.5s

CD 30s

Frenzy is a great skill, but at 45s CD it just doesn't have enough value, especially since taking it means giving up damage mitigation or stability from something like Endure Pain or Balanced Stance.  Reducing the CD to 30s would make it far more appealing.  Reducing the quickness component to 2.5s (down from 4s) should be a fair trade-off.

 

5.)  Defiant Stance

Leave as it is; it's in a good spot.

 

[Trait Line] Last Stand

Cast Lesser Berserker Stance (2s duration) when afflicted with a condition (CD 45s)

Stances last 25% longer

Stances grant Vigor (8s)

Removing the auto-stunbreak should be enough to reverse the 300s CD.  Besides, more resistance, condi cleanse, and adrenaline is never a bad thing, so it's not like we'd lose a lot of value here. 

No real need to include CD reduction in the trait because all of the stances have appropriate CDs at baseline.  Decreasing them further just creates the problem currently seen with Ranger's Lightning Reflexes where they get to spam a stunbreak and an evade and a condition cleanse every 24s.  Appropriate baseline CDs also allows for a player to get good value out of a skill without necessarily having to trait for it--always a good thing.   

 

New Year, New Warrior!  #MSGA!

Edited January 7, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[oscuro.9720]

I would make berserker stance 5 or 6 seconds personally. I really miss running it, it’s my favorite stance, these changes are all good 🙂 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Berserker Stance should be 4s, just enough to get to 30 adrenaline if you hit something or have something like SoR  going at the same time. It should however grant Resistance and Resolution for 1.5s each. I don't agree with the condition removal baseline on it, but I have a counter suggestion

I'd change Last Stand to cause stances to lose a condition every pulse instead of the vigor. To compensate for the vigor loss I'd merge Hardened Armor and Thick Skin into one minor trait and in the free minor slot I'd put in an endurance regeneration trait like Adrenal Implant from Engineer, which is +50% regeneration. Call it Adrenaline Rush.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I forgor my stance ideas kitten

 

Number are easy to change btw so I won't put any. 

 

It was some good stuff uuuhh.. Ah yes! 

 

-Zerker Stance similar to yours but an added functionality in, consume 1 condition per tick and gain extra adrenaline if a condition was cleansed. Resistance is granted as well as immunity to condition dmg for a short period as part of the stance effect. 

 

-Balanced stance, it's aight but I'd add a weakness pulse AoE when using it just for fun

 

-Defy Pain remains as is but grants regen too for a bit to sustain you back 

 

-Frenzy remains as is and gets the frenzy effect of ignoring the application and effect of all movement and combat inhibiting conditions aka chill, cripple, immob, slow, weakness

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

38 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I forgor my stance ideas kitten

 

Number are easy to change btw so I won't put any. 

 

It was some good stuff uuuhh.. Ah yes! 

 

-Zerker Stance similar to yours but an added functionality in, consume 1 condition per tick and gain extra adrenaline if a condition was cleansed. Resistance is granted as well as immunity to condition dmg for a short period as part of the stance effect. 

 

-Balanced stance, it's aight but I'd add a weakness pulse AoE when using it just for fun

 

-Defy Pain remains as is but grants regen too for a bit to sustain you back 

 

-Frenzy remains as is and gets the frenzy effect of ignoring the application and effect of all movement and combat inhibiting conditions aka chill, cripple, immob, slow, weakness

 

 

Now that extra bit on Frenzy is a good idea. It would require a high CD though, are you willing to take a higher CD for that? I guarantee that if they did that suggestion it would be a 60s CD in PvP and WvW like Dolyak Stance is. Would be great though on a 45s CD.

For the record I don't think any of the utilities on any class should be above 45s CD unless they are a revive so take that for what it is worth.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Now that extra bit on Frenzy is a good idea. It would require a high CD though, are you willing to take a higher CD for that? I guarantee that if they did that suggestion it would be a 60s CD in PvP and WvW like Dolyak Stance is. Would be great though on a 45s CD.

For the record I don't think any of the utilities on any class should be above 45s CD unless they are a revive so take that for what it is worth.

I dont see no wrong with 50 sec, so we can all be happy. It's not a defensive stunbreak in it's core anyway, we just try to give it a role outside of popping it for undred blades, where you consider if you want to rely on frenzy to counter immob, or spec discipline.

 

Which as you know is a massive issue for warriors, no direct control over immob management forces us even more into discipline, but something like this frenzy could work effectively with say, vengeful return. Now i haven't ran that in years (assuming we don't rework it too lol). 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

On 1/7/2022 at 7:09 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Berserker Stance should be 4s, just enough to get to 30 adrenaline if you hit something or have something like SoR  going at the same time. It should however grant Resistance and Resolution for 1.5s each. I don't agree with the condition removal baseline on it, but I have a counter suggestion

I'd change Last Stand to cause stances to lose a condition every pulse instead of the vigor. To compensate for the vigor loss I'd merge Hardened Armor and Thick Skin into one minor trait and in the free minor slot I'd put in an endurance regeneration trait like Adrenal Implant from Engineer, which is +50% regeneration. Call it Adrenaline Rush.

I love the idea about Adrenaline Rush.  That would be a welcome addition to Defense, and I like that it promotes a skillful, active form of damage mitigation (i.e. dodging) as opposed to boon/barrier spam or passive healing.  That sounds like a healthy design philosophy.

 

I do disagree about Berserker Stance giving resolution instead of a condi cleanse.  While pulsing resolution is nice (esp because of synergy with hardened armor), I really think we need an alternative to Shake It Off.  The pulsing resolution just won't be enough...When a burn guard slaps you with 8-10 stacks of burning, you gotta get that OFF, not just reduce the damage.  I think BStance would still be dropped in favor of SiO in most cases.  I'm not saying BStance wouldn't see any use if it granted resolution instead of a cleanse (high resolution up-time with Hardened armor would be great), but I think it would be decidedly more niche than I would hope it to be.  Still, I'd take just about anything at this point.

 

I think the idea about making Last stand grant stances condi cleanse is interesting, but there are a few key problems.  1.) It would be way too strong.  Endure Pain and Balanced Stance would be stun breaks that provide damage immunity/reduction +stability AND cleanse 3-4 condis?  They would have their CDs nerfed into the ground if that were the case.  2.)  This would indirectly nerf Defiant Stance, as you actually wouldn't WANT to cleanse damaging condis while it was active since that would lower your healing.  

 

So here's my counter-counter proposal:

Last Stand:

Cast lesser Berserker Stance when you have a condition on you (CD 45s)

Stances last 25% longer and grant additional boons:

Defiant Stance: Regeneration (6s)

Berserker Stance: Vigor (1.5s per pulse for 7.5s total)

Endure Pain:  Resolution (4s)

Balanced Stance: Protection (1s per pulse)

Frenzy: Superspeed (4s)

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I love the idea about Adrenaline Rush.  That would be a welcome addition to Defense, and I like that it promotes a skillful, active form of damage mitigation (i.e. dodging) as opposed to boon/barrier spam or passive healing.  That sounds like a healthy design philosophy.

I agree 100%

5 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I do disagree about Berserker Stance giving resolution instead of a condi cleanse.  While pulsing resolution is nice (esp because of synergy with hardened armor), I really think we need an alternative to Shake It Off.  The pulsing resolution just won't be enough...When a burn guard slaps you with 8-10 stacks of burning, you gotta get that OFF, not just reduce the damage.  I think BStance would still be dropped in favor of SiO in most cases.  I'm not saying BStance wouldn't see any use if it granted resolution instead of a cleanse (high resolution up-time with Hardened armor would be great), but I think it would be decidedly more niche than I would hope it to be.  Still, I'd take just about anything at this point.

 

I think the idea about making Last stand grant stances condi cleanse is interesting, but there are a few key problems.  1.) It would be way too strong.  Endure Pain and Balanced Stance would be stun breaks that provide damage immunity/reduction +stability AND cleanse 3-4 condis?  They would have their CDs nerfed into the ground if that were the case.  2.)  This would indirectly nerf Defiant Stance, as you actually wouldn't WANT to cleanse damaging condis while it was active since that would lower your healing.  

Yeah I forgot about Defiant Stance.

5 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

So here's my counter-counter proposal:

Last Stand:

Cast lesser Berserker Stance when you have a condition on you (CD 45s)

Stances last 25% longer and grant additional boons:

Defiant Stance: Regeneration (6s)

Berserker Stance: Vigor (1.5s per pulse for 7.5s total)

Endure Pain:  Resolution (4s)

Swap that one for Resistance (4s)

5 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Balanced Stance: Protection (1s per pulse)

Add Resolution here for 1s per pulse in addition to protection.

5 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Frenzy: Superspeed (4s)

 

👍

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I agree 100%

Yeah I forgot about Defiant Stance.

Swap that one for Resistance (4s)

Add Resolution here for 1s per pulse in addition to protection.

👍

I'd be down with that 🙌

[felix.2386]

stances are still the better warrior skills....

frenzy/endure pain are warrior meta and great

balance stance still warrior's best stab source, dolyak signet is garbage.

berserker stance is meh , but still ok compared to a lot of other skills, and work in some niche build like signet of fury

 

what they really need to change, kick, bola, dolyak signet, fear me, signet of stamina, banners, signet of rage.

Edited January 15, 2022 by felix.2386

[Mungrul.9358]

I've never understood why stances in Guild Wars 1/2 don't behave the same way as they do in other games (notably classic fighting games), where they're about changing your character's actual combat stance permanently, providing access to different attacks and defenses until you change to another, with each stance having upsides and downsides.

 

I mean, I don't realistically expect ANet to actually implement something like this, as they don't seem to be too keen on creating new animations. But from a player's perpective, this would be the best implementation.

It's a shame, as this could be something that could really make Warrior stand out.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

13 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I've never understood why stances in Guild Wars 1/2 don't behave the same way as they do in other games (notably classic fighting games), where they're about changing your character's actual combat stance permanently, providing access to different attacks and defenses until you change to another, with each stance having upsides and downsides.

 

I mean, I don't realistically expect ANet to actually implement something like this, as they don't seem to be too keen on creating new animations. But from a player's perpective, this would be the best implementation.

It's a shame, as this could be something that could really make Warrior stand out.

Oh that's an interesting idea. Could function kinda like a cross between engi kits and rev legends. For instance, you have Berserker stance on your toolbar, but when you activate it, it replaces your utility skills with the new stance skills. They would probably never do that, but it would offer some really interesting opportunities if they did. Neat idea!

[Katary.7096]

I would already be content with stances which are more powerful but you can only have one active stance at any given time. Then again, maybe there not enough different stances available for such a system.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Or, remove stances, and make buff warrior survivability ! 🤡😪

[Mungrul.9358]

9 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Oh that's an interesting idea. Could function kinda like a cross between engi kits and rev legends. For instance, you have Berserker stance on your toolbar, but when you activate it, it replaces your utility skills with the new stance skills. They would probably never do that, but it would offer some really interesting opportunities if they did. Neat idea!

Sort of, although I would say that instead of replacing your utilities like Engi kits, they would buff and debuff different stats, or give you permanent boons and debuffs while in the stance.

 

The first implementation can't really work thanks to the boneheaded way ANet tied stats to gear in GW2 (which, in my opinion, was one of the very worst changes from GW1 to 2). There's no point switching to a support stance that buffs Healing if your gear doesn't support it.

 

But the second could work quite nicely. For example, I could see a classic interpretation of Frenzy working well here.

Frenzy would give you permanent Quickness (maybe not Might though). But on the downside, you would take more damage while in Frenzy, like the GW1 skill (which thanks to its CD being lower than its uptime, was effectively a permanent IAS anyway).

 

But that's the low-hanging fruit. It's somewhat harder to come up with interesting and balanced ideas for the other stances.

Thoughts?

 

I'd also suggest a relatively long CD on a stance once you've swapped out of it (~10 secs), to avoid potential exploits.

And of course, as Katary mentions above, limit it to only being able to use one stance at a time to prevent stacking stances.

[The Boz.2038]

Radical idea, just wanna see how you all vibe with an idea:

What if a character could only ever have one stance active at a time? 
Have balanced stance up? Enjoy it. Click Frenzy? Bye balanced stance.
(yes, grant-stance-on-trigger traits would have to be changed, whatev)

[Mungrul.9358]

@The Boz.2038, just a polite nudge, but you did read the posts preceding your own, right? 😉

[The Boz.2038]

I... clicked the thread, then did some work, then came back to write my posts. Katary's came in the meantime. My bad.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What is being passed around now is to change stances into pseudo Facets, but don't parse through what would happen with Defiant Stance, Endure Pain, or how stunbreaks would function.

So, lets hash out this idea for a new mechanic, bearing in mind that unless Warrior stances alone were reworked to this then Weaver and Soulbeast would also get these changes.

Activating a stance grants one time effects upon entering. These include stunbreaks and any initial healing.

Pulsed effects pulse once per second until the stance is toggled off, or a new stance is activated, thus deactivating the prior stance. Pulsed effects occur upon initially entering the stance and ever second thereafter.

Exiting a stance procs an additional one time effects. These include things like the Defiant Stance's Damage -> Healing effects.

Since these would only be available one at a time then there is leeway in making each individually stronger than they are now.

 

My take on reworked stances with these changes, any splits are PvE/Comp:

Defiant Stance: Upon entering gain the current initial heal. Once every second gain 200 barrier ( this number can be debated, not looking for a high sustain number, just something to negate some chip damage). Upon exiting the stance convert all incoming damage to healing for 4s. Entering this stance has a 0.25s cast time. Yes, I'm not putting a cast time on exiting. If Revs can do that then so can we.

Endure Pain: Break Stun upon entering. Once every second gain 1s/0.5s of protection. Upon exiting the stance become immune to strike damage for 4s/3s. 

Berserker's Stance: Upon entering gain 10 adrenaline and 4s of Resistance. Once every second gain 1s/0.5s of Resolution (pulsing Resistance would be stupid OP) and 2 adrenaline. Upon exiting gain 10 adrenaline and cleanse 4 conditions. 

Frenzy: Break stun upon entering. Gain 1s of quickness and 2 might for 2s/1s every second, but have -150 toughness while this stance is active. Upon exiting the stance gain 4s of quickness and 10 stacks of might for 6s. The pulsed effect is perma quickness, but at the cost of 150 toughness. The pulsing might is more for trait effects.

Balanced Stance: Break Stun upon entering. While in this stance your critical hits inflict weakness for 1s, but only once per interval (so no AoE weakness) and gain 2s/1s of swiftness. Upon exiting this stance you are immune to critical strikes for 4s and gain 4 stacks of stability for 4s and 4s of swiftness.

Again, only one stance at a time, activating another stance will exit the current stance and put it on CD. CDs would probably still be the current CDs. The only one I explicitly call out a cast time is upon entering Defiant Stance. Beyond that no cast times, and you have the option of double tapping the stance to enter and immediately exit to proc both effects, which for the most part would just be the current skill with the exception of Berserker's Stance and Balanced Stance.

Defy Pain: Upon entering a stance gain 1000 barrier, upon exiting a stance gain 1000 health.

Last Stand: The pulsed effects of stances now grant 1s/0.5s of vigor. Stances have 20% CD reduction.

Superior Rune of the Weaver would activate upon entering or exiting a stance.

[The Boz.2038]

I'm... thinking you're overcomplicating things a bit here. Not every class needs to have the exact same enter>stay>exit functionality in stances.

Rangers can have just the stay functionalities, and the ability to share some the bonuses at a reduced effect (without the share counting as a stance that overrides others' stances).

Warriors can have enter and stay functions. Maybe a trait adds a common exit functionality (such as 3s Stability upon exit, as you regain your footing).

Elementalists can enjoy their stay and exit functions, so that they can have some weaving fun triggering their exits with other stances.

Just to cut down on the number of different effects and mechanics and descriptions...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I'm... thinking you're overcomplicating things a bit here. Not every class needs to have the exact same enter>stay>exit functionality in stances.

Rangers can have just the stay functionalities, and the ability to share some the bonuses at a reduced effect (without the share counting as a stance that overrides others' stances).

Warriors can have enter and stay functions. Maybe a trait adds a common exit functionality (such as 3s Stability upon exit, as you regain your footing).

Elementalists can enjoy their stay and exit functions, so that they can have some weaving fun triggering their exits with other stances.

Just to cut down on the number of different effects and mechanics and descriptions...

I'm not against the three sharing enter, stay, exit mechanics. The one at a time aspect keeps them balanced. Soulbeast would simply share half the benefits they gain with the trait.

I'm also not against Anet just changing warrior stances and leaving Soulbeast and Weaver with the old stance mechanics either...

[oscuro.9720]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Radical idea, just wanna see how you all vibe with an idea:

What if a character could only ever have one stance active at a time? 
Have balanced stance up? Enjoy it. Click Frenzy? Bye balanced stance.
(yes, grant-stance-on-trigger traits would have to be changed, whatev)

So how Will Bender “stances” work. Honestly I’d be okay with it if the stances were changed significantly.

Let’s use an edited idea; stances have unlimited duration, and must be cancelled or swapped out of. In exchange, each stance has its strengths and draw backs. 
For example;

Berserker Stance; Immune to non damaging conditions, but conditions applied to you have longer durations.

Endure Pain: Gain barrier when striking a foe, but strike damage is reduced.

Balanced Stance: Cannot be knocked down, launched, pulled, floated, sunk, taunted, or feared. Movement speed is reduced.

Berserker stance: Attack speed and movement speed are increased, but you take more damage. 

As for auto-stance traits, they could be changed to be stance modifiers. Something like; 

Defy Pain: Gain Protection and Resolution when entering a stance

Last Stand: Stances lose their negative effects when you are under 25% health.

This would create situational uses with measurable drawbacks for each stance (I.e. go into balanced stance to stomp someone at the cost of not being able to get away). 

Some things to consider; boons instead of unique effects may be better? The balance of skills is quite easy by increasing/decreasing the benefits vs trade offs. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Morokey.8534]

The Last Stand trait should be same as Master of Consecrations trait. Increase duration and reduce cd