nerf necro!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

If 5 people can't kill reaper in CC nothing would help them. Even if you remove shroud completely.

I can't vouch for the other 4, lord knows what they rolled, but I can assure you that a glass volley was a part of that and that still hurts people.

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

What did it get?  Or are you still on about praising short durations of Resolution as "sustain tools?"

Harbinger have more hard CC which are part of the sustain tools.

Harbinger have a dodge skill, which is a sustain tool.

Harbinger in general have a higher hit rate which can translate into higher proc rate of life siphon which is... well... sustain!

You can turn a blind eye on those tools but they do exist nonetheless. Players made harbinger work pretty well in both beta1 and beta4, which is why I'm pretty confident in saying that when the player base will be used to the spec they will find the survivability fine and a part of the sPvP community will even end up complaining about the survivability being OP (Let's keep in mind that the necromancer's community thought that the scourge survivability was very bad at PoF release and that now, despite many nerfs compared to this release, players complain hard about scourge's survivability).

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

If 5 people can't kill reaper in CC nothing would help them. Even if you remove shroud completely.

this statement is abit ludicurious.

No proffession in the game should be requiring 5 people to kill even without CC. if a build Cannot functionally Die unless outnumbered its Likely too Overpowered in itself. given the fact reaper does too much Damage to be a "Bunker specc"

18 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's why I never could use reaper GS. But, ultimately, that's not an issue as the out of shroud form is designed to be the "I'm building my life force so I can enter shroud in 10s" form and GS provide more than enough LF to do that.

Yes but i'd argue there are healthier better ways to display Shroud as a wanted thing without Lopsiding the damage to do so, Necromancer doesnt need 80% of its damage coming from shroud for shroud to have value.

it should likely be 60%/40% to shroud realistically, then have some combinations between the 2 which make the overall Design good and Not Overpowering 1 Section of the specc to balance out a underpowered Factor of it imho.

in PvE Reaper shroud suffers on ALOT of fights and some even booted from because Life force generation isnt fast enough to give the specc a fighting chance at being competitive which is a large problem. ontop of this Because Might is Distributed from only AA Chain. it makes Reapers shroud a 1 button Rotation.

In PvP reaper out of shroud does so little Shroud cant be nerfed but engaging a Reaper with full Shroud is Wildly overpowered. Its unhealthy design to make everything around a Mechanic underpowered and bloating the Shroud.

Currently Shroud is responsible for:

Sustain, 80% of the Damage, Might, Quickness, and for Reaper its Mobility.

thats too much for 1 mechanic. Its Overbloated this mechanic doesnt need to be responsible for all of this to provide Value to the proffession. its too overbearing currently

[Dadnir.5038]

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Currently Shroud is responsible for:

Sustain, 80% of the Damage, Might, Quickness, and for Reaper its Mobility.

Again, you're looking at things in a very narrow way.

Neither core nor reaper's shroud is not responsible for 80% of the damage. Condition damage are mainly done through the out of shroud state and, power wise, while shroud offer higher damages than the out of shroud state, you still spend 50% of your time out of shroud dealing way more than 20% of your total rotation dps (Wells are the main reason the reaper isn't below 30k dps after all)

Quickness is available out of shroud. The amount of quickness output from dread can be surprisingly high in a dedicated build.

Likewise, you can get a lot of might output out of shroud.

As for mobility, despite their flaws, wurm and spectral walk tend to contribute a lot more than deathly charge does for reaper (swiftness isn't restricted to shroud nor are the movement speed buff from SotL and dagger trait in blood magic).

 

I'll say it yet again don't generalize a profession to a few meta builds. If those build don't perform well in some area it's simply because they aren't meant to do so. The options to perform well in those area that are already available even if the players don't want to explore those options because "it's not meta".

 

[Spellhunter.9675]

15 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

this statement is abit ludicurious.

No proffession in the game should be requiring 5 people to kill even without CC. if a build Cannot functionally Die unless outnumbered its Likely too Overpowered in itself. given the fact reaper does too much Damage to be a "Bunker specc"

It has nothing to do with a build or class. It is about those "5 people" being bad at doing damage. I can assure you, if a couple of guys can't kill me when I'm playing core necro, they will not kill me if I'll play some glassy build. 

 

[Puck.3697]

53 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'll say it yet again don't generalize a profession to a few meta builds. If those build don't perform well in some area it's simply because they aren't meant to do so. The options to perform well in those area that are already available even if the players don't want to explore those options because "it's not meta".

80% is likely a Over-exaggeration. but the number is likely high. considering Without shroud Reaper wouldnt have Might stacks etc etc which defintly do aid its Damage outside of content where u reliably have other players providing those boons.

to the other section. ofcourse other options are avaliable.. its called Scourge :P... effectively i dont think theres many fights at all that'd u want to be playing reaper over scourge. it does higher DPS. it has Higher group support, its Fully ranged while doing all that too.

exploring other options is fine. but if its Just a outright Downgrade its really not worth it, meta builds are meta for a reason and fi ur not Using builds which no one uses its either 1) That player knows something guide writers havent learnt yet. or 2) theres  a Better option for what ur trying to do realistically.

49 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

It has nothing to do with a build or class. It is about those "5 people" being bad at doing damage. I can assure you, if a couple of guys can't kill me when I'm playing core necro, they will not kill me if I'll play some glassy build. 

 

well not rly. Because Most proffessions u could blow up by urself effectively. Core necro REQUIRES team Focus to kill. Most other builds most defintly do not realistically.

Core Necro is Easier to play then it is to play against. thats the raw problem here its a Build that currently boosts Players above the Rank they realistically should be by the sheer force of the builds raw strengths. the Skill ceiling of Core Necro is below the Skill floor required to Kill core Necro. which makes it perform Insanely Ranks below Plat.

It isnt even a Question of balance, its a Question of the games Health. for the Sake of SPVPs health as a game mode. Core Necromancer is a build that needs to burn. Im suprised anet didnt go deeper into necro during the Scourge Purging in SPVP  its kinda sad because DPS Scourge SPVP builds got murdered along side.

and While the Support Scourge builds were absolute BS and Really were WAAAAY to strong. Condi DPS Scourge were builds that ironically were far more healthy in SPVP then current core is.

either way. i think we all know core necros gonna get Smashed in the Giant balance wave theyts susposed to be happening shortly after EoDs launch.. i'd be really suprised if it wasnt even if they just did it to get players to spread out abit as currently necromancer is soo popular.

likely waiting it out because of the sheer uproar if they did it right now.... nerfing a Majority of the playerbase Doesnt end well if theres nothing pulling them away while its happening.. the new elites release would be a ample moment to bring this as Plenty will at that point want it to happen to bring the new Elites to light as everyone will wanna play the new toys.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Bale.3851]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I can't vouch for the other 4, lord knows what they rolled, but I can assure you that a glass volley was a part of that and that still hurts people.

 If a reaper kills 5 guys or 5 guys cant kill a reaper its 100% a player issue. Reaper is a beast with support in teamfights but a medicore 1v1 even more so 1v5 class. Spectral amor proc has an icd and cant be progged by 5 guys. Sorry but cant take statements like these seriously.

 

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

well not rly. Because Most proffessions u could blow up by urself effectively. Core necro REQUIRES team Focus to kill. Most other builds most defintly do not realistically.

 Surely they do. I mean thats whats spvp is all about. Playing coordinated. Focussing targets. Supporting mates.

Is core necro to tanky yes? Is it the the only op class? no. Look a the meta, pick a specc, you drafted an op specc compared to others. So for the health of the game roll the dice anet! Keep the wheels turning.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Bale.3851 said:

 If a reaper kills 5 guys or 5 guys cant kill a reaper its 100% a player issue. Reaper is a beast with support in teamfights but a medicore 1v1 even more so 1v5 class. Spectral amor proc has an icd and cant be progged by 5 guys. Sorry but cant take statements like these seriously.

 

It was WvW post Feb2020 patch. I'm sure that necro was running Soldier or Sentinel stats with the traitlines shoring up ferocity and crit chance. With those kind of stats, 10% reduction food, Infusing Terror, Shroud, and Protection during a period where several of those still stacked additively it was very much a possibility to tank 5 people focusing you. Even now with those stacking all multiplicatively that is still a large amount of damage reduction, so yeah I can see that seriously still happening. Not in PvP, but WvW? Totally still a reality.

[Bale.3851]

35 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It was WvW post Feb2020 patch. I'm sure that necro was running Soldier or Sentinel stats with the traitlines shoring up ferocity and crit chance. With those kind of stats, 10% reduction food, Infusing Terror, Shroud, and Protection during a period where several of those still stacked additively it was very much a possibility to tank 5 people focusing you. Even now with those stacking all multiplicatively that is still a large amount of damage reduction, so yeah I can see that seriously still happening. Not in PvP, but WvW? Totally still a reality.

Ok im out of this discussion. Cant take that serious anymore. You want to tell me that right now and soldier reaper can tank 5 people and kill them? Like are they afk or something ? This would result in reaper being the most op class in game by far. Like you can want to tell me you tank classes for eternity on reaper? Just asking for a friend. Do you see reapers roaming the streets pressing poor ingis for money?

 

I can understand people having a problem with core tankyness or scourge support but reaper being the evil solo char wiping groups? Guess we play different games lol.
 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

Ok im out of this discussion. Cant take that serious anymore. You want to tell me that right now and soldier reaper can tank 5 people and kill them? Like are they afk or something ? This would result in reaper being the most op class in game by far. Like you can want to tell me you tank classes for eternity on reaper? Just asking for a friend. Do you see reapers roaming the streets pressing poor ingis for money?

I never said anything about tanking 5 people and killing them, just that the reaper tanked 5 people's burst completely with shroud kept fighting and was able to go back into shroud again during the fight. You are fishing for reasons to refute my what I have personally witnessed in actual gameplay.

4 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

I can understand people having a problem with core tankyness or scourge support but reaper being the evil solo char wiping groups? Guess we play different games lol.
 

Again, I never said anything about a reaper wiping a group, just that he tanked the bursts of 5 people in shroud and lived long enough to reshroud under focus fire, which is entirely possible via stats and the way damage reduction stacked at that point in time.

[Puck.3697]

7 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

 If a reaper kills 5 guys or 5 guys cant kill a reaper its 100% a player issue. Reaper is a beast with support in teamfights but a medicore 1v1 even more so 1v5 class. Spectral amor proc has an icd and cant be progged by 5 guys. Sorry but cant take statements like these seriously.

Yes. u are correct. 5 playerts show be able to kill any 1 Player.

but theres a difference to "REquiring 5 players to kill the player" and "5 players can nuke 1 target" depending on which side things are on depends on if its considering balanced.

7 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Surely they do. I mean thats whats spvp is all about. Playing coordinated. Focussing targets. Supporting mates.

Is core necro to tanky yes? Is it the the only op class? no. Look a the meta, pick a specc, you drafted an op specc compared to others. So for the health of the game roll the dice anet! Keep the wheels turning.

your running into a Fallacy.

Ur circumstance is 5 Players bombing 1 Necro and No outside options are coming into play. If the necromancer is in a Position where it ends up bombed by 5 players. the Necromancer is playing terrible and has no idea wtf he should be doing.

If a Necro has 50k HP and ur trying to Tick him down in HP.. While continously using Fears and More on AoE level to Recover life force VERY QUICKLY.. his 50k hp bar will keep Reappearing because Life force Is built. it doesnt just "heal over time" like a HP Bar, you then have to account for the fact the likelyhood is the Necromancer would begin to kite under focus fire.

The necros Supports would Focus Heal / Support the Necromancer

and the nEcromancers team would start peeling and retaliating to your Focus fire.

This means U have 5 platyers running around a Point getting Smacked about by CC and Damage by 4 players who are freecasting on you.

so even if u manage to kill the necromancer u've likely blown so many CDs and everything u arent capable of teamfighting.

Necromancer IS killable by 5 targets sure. but the fact of the matter is, your misplaying if your trying to focus down a NEcromancer among a teamfight because of the required burst to actually drop a Necromancer. you're gonna run yourself dry and Die trying effectively.

you cant say "well its certainly dead in a 1v5" as a Argument, because in a top level game ur never gonna be fighting a Necro 1v5 unless his entire teams Dead and even then no experienced player would be even trying to fight u on a 1v5. more likely getting the heck away.

and no ofcourse every targert doesnt requre a 5 man Focus to drop.

Its not hard to work out that a 14k HP Player is easier to kill then a 50k HP Player.

if u smack for 8k the Percentage of Damage you do to a 14k Target is FAR Greater then a 50k HP Player. Which means its Much harder to react Fast enough to such a thing as it would be for a 50k HP Player as u'll force CD Burn downs MUCH Quicker hitting the 14k HP Player.

you 5 man Target focus them sure. Among a teamfight u will always do so... but you know.

Theres a reason people are screeching harbinger doesnt have enough Sustain. and it isnt because it requires the same level of focus to kill as a Core necro does.

and sure ur correct, Core necro isnt the only OP Option in SPVP. but Justbecause A needs nerfing. doesnt mean B Doesnt. core necro is defintly stronger then the majority of them however.. theres a Reason why Ranked is current stacked full of necros....

Edited January 14, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[oscuro.9720]

On 1/9/2022 at 6:41 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

It's unlikely that Arenanet will ever touch Necromancers in a meaningful and appropriate way.

For all we know, Arenanet doesn't even want Necromancers to not be over-tuned.

So what you are saying is Anet touches Necromancers in inappropriate ways? 😉 

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

So what you are saying is Anet touches Necromancers in inappropriate ways? 😉 

That's correct. But I'll leave it to you to interpret those words for your mind.

[Bale.3851]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I never said anything about tanking 5 people and killing them, just that the reaper tanked 5 people's burst completely with shroud kept fighting and was able to go back into shroud again during the fight. You are fishing for reasons to refute my what I have personally witnessed in actual gameplay.

Ok got your problem. So let me ask this. Was the burst phase longer than an ingis elixier s or a thief stealth? Was it shorter? You get the picture.

 

If you make demands like these stay reasonable. Ohterwise this whole discussion is meaningless.

I also witnessed berserk warriors wiping 4 people in wvw. Hitting them with 13k +. Is bersekr warrior op now? I guess not. Cause it got a designated weakness aka survivability. Same goes for reaper but not for core. Thats why people complain about about core necro their dmg is good, cc too and they are super tanky.

 

Why? cause lf generation is super high with fear of death 7% lf for every fear resulting in spectral ring giving you like 40% lf cc and dmg. Just nerf this, reduce max shroud pool and lich auto attack and core is fine compared to other meta speccs. 

[Nimon.7840]

1 hour ago, Bale.3851 said:

Ok got your problem. So let me ask this. Was the burst phase longer than an ingis elixier s or a thief stealth? Was it shorter? You get the picture.

 

If you make demands like these stay reasonable. Ohterwise this whole discussion is meaningless.

I also witnessed berserk warriors wiping 4 people in wvw. Hitting them with 13k +. Is bersekr warrior op now? I guess not. Cause it got a designated weakness aka survivability. Same goes for reaper but not for core. Thats why people complain about about core necro their dmg is good, cc too and they are super tanky.

 

Why? cause lf generation is super high with fear of death 7% lf for every fear resulting in spectral ring giving you like 40% lf cc and dmg. Just nerf this, reduce max shroud pool and lich auto attack and core is fine compared to other meta speccs. 

 

Not exactly true. Necro in general has a very obvious weakness, which is cc.

 

Just last week I fought someone in wvw, used all my stunbreaks and killed that player. Then a warrior ganked me immediately after that fight and I didn't see him coming.

I was Perma cc'd for - I don't know how long- until I was down. (Played reaper)

 

I dont get it why people in spvp still can't figure that out and abuse that weakness?!

On top of that: necro is extremely slow - be it movement wise or rather long Casttimes, or channeled skills.

 

Sure you can ask for nerfs. But always say what should be nerfed, and always consider how that would impact the gameplay of a class.

 

For example:

- nerf Necro: it's way too tanky - remove shroud covering health.

 

Would that fix anything? 

Maybe everyone else would be fine with this but Necro would be unplayable after that nerf, because Necro does not have any sources of active damage mitigation, so in order to push through with that nerf, you would have to buff Necro in other aspects.

For example adding evades frames, or blocks to certain skills. Or heavily increase necros damage in order to make it a glass Cannon.

 

[Spellhunter.9675]

3 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Why? cause lf generation is super high with fear of death 7% lf for every fear resulting in spectral ring giving you like 40% lf cc and dmg. Just nerf this, reduce max shroud pool and lich auto attack and core is fine compared to other meta speccs. 

It has 5 sec ICD.

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Why? cause lf generation is super high with fear of death 7% lf for every fear resulting in spectral ring giving you like 40% lf cc and dmg. Just nerf this, reduce max shroud pool and lich auto attack and core is fine compared to other meta speccs. 

IMHO, Shrouds DR needs dealing with. Drop it to 33% or even 25% then Drop its Max hp pool by a few thousand, from there IMHO. Remove Lichs ability to crit, Then Slow down Cores Shroud Generation, take some of the damage of Reapers Shroud burst and Put it into Sustained Damage Outside of shroud.

Does it run risk of over-nerfing necromancer. Yeah. but it likely needs to happen. Necromancer has become sooo over-populated, Stacked in content and Overplayed that the playerbase needs something to spread the players out again.

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Sigmoid.7082]

7 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Remove Lichs ability to crit

Thats not how you look to nerf lich.

 

You don't remove its ability to crit, you remove the +1000 precision it gives you. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

IMHO, Shrouds DR needs dealing with. Drop it to 33% or even 25% then Drop its Max hp pool by a few thousand, from there IMHO. Remove Lichs ability to crit, Then Slow down Cores Shroud Generation, take some of the damage of Reapers Shroud burst and Put it into Sustained Damage Outside of shroud.

Does it run risk of over-nerfing necromancer. Yeah. but it likely needs to happen. Necromancer has become sooo over-populated, Stacked in content and Overplayed that the playerbase needs something to spread the players out again.

 

Shroud DR definitely needs to be reduced during this meta. If we go back to higher damage, then raise the DR again. But Shroud DR being what it is right now is one of the main reasons for Necro over performance. 

[XECOR.2814]

On 1/14/2022 at 8:36 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Yes. u are correct. 5 playerts show be able to kill any 1 Player.

but theres a difference to "REquiring 5 players to kill the player" and "5 players can nuke 1 target" depending on which side things are on depends on if its considering balanced.

your running into a Fallacy.

Ur circumstance is 5 Players bombing 1 Necro and No outside options are coming into play. If the necromancer is in a Position where it ends up bombed by 5 players. the Necromancer is playing terrible and has no idea wtf he should be doing.

If a Necro has 50k HP and ur trying to Tick him down in HP.. While continously using Fears and More on AoE level to Recover life force VERY QUICKLY.. his 50k hp bar will keep Reappearing because Life force Is built. it doesnt just "heal over time" like a HP Bar, you then have to account for the fact the likelyhood is the Necromancer would begin to kite under focus fire.

The necros Supports would Focus Heal / Support the Necromancer

and the nEcromancers team would start peeling and retaliating to your Focus fire.

This means U have 5 platyers running around a Point getting Smacked about by CC and Damage by 4 players who are freecasting on you.

so even if u manage to kill the necromancer u've likely blown so many CDs and everything u arent capable of teamfighting.

Necromancer IS killable by 5 targets sure. but the fact of the matter is, your misplaying if your trying to focus down a NEcromancer among a teamfight because of the required burst to actually drop a Necromancer. you're gonna run yourself dry and Die trying effectively.

you cant say "well its certainly dead in a 1v5" as a Argument, because in a top level game ur never gonna be fighting a Necro 1v5 unless his entire teams Dead and even then no experienced player would be even trying to fight u on a 1v5. more likely getting the heck away.

and no ofcourse every targert doesnt requre a 5 man Focus to drop.

Its not hard to work out that a 14k HP Player is easier to kill then a 50k HP Player.

if u smack for 8k the Percentage of Damage you do to a 14k Target is FAR Greater then a 50k HP Player. Which means its Much harder to react Fast enough to such a thing as it would be for a 50k HP Player as u'll force CD Burn downs MUCH Quicker hitting the 14k HP Player.

you 5 man Target focus them sure. Among a teamfight u will always do so... but you know.

Theres a reason people are screeching harbinger doesnt have enough Sustain. and it isnt because it requires the same level of focus to kill as a Core necro does.

and sure ur correct, Core necro isnt the only OP Option in SPVP. but Justbecause A needs nerfing. doesnt mean B Doesnt. core necro is defintly stronger then the majority of them however.. theres a Reason why Ranked is current stacked full of necros....

its stacked with necros cause no one playing the game and its easy to get results with necro. As soon as teams start tryharding, look how fast it goes out of meta.

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

its stacked with necros cause no one playing the game and its easy to get results with necro. As soon as teams start tryharding, look how fast it goes out of meta.

I'd agree, if its representation dropped off at the monthly AT / AT representation. But it doesn't. Core necro is overpowered and it's nothing to do with "not tryharding" 

The build Is a meta build, this isn't something like trapper DH which just performs super well against bad players. 

[Aplethoraof.2643]

On 1/8/2022 at 6:26 PM, SHINING.5360 said:

this class dont die! please do something! lich is OP, skills is OP

100% agreed.

Plus, have you seen how much damage necro dagger does? And it is so quick too. Practically no point to quickness when you have a weapon that attacks 300 times a second.

Lich Form should def be just removed. Maybe replace it with a signet elite that does the effects of Thief's Guild (though it should be a bit weaker and the thieves should be renamed to "undead thief"). No passive though, the signet of undead thief's legion doesn't need one - it is powerful enough already.

Also remove dagger. Brokest kitten ever seen

Edited January 19, 2022 by Aplethoraof.2643

[LucianDK.8615]

This has to be trolling, mh dagger is a weaksauce weapon

[Axl.8924]

On 1/14/2022 at 1:06 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Shroud DR definitely needs to be reduced during this meta. If we go back to higher damage, then raise the DR again. But Shroud DR being what it is right now is one of the main reasons for Necro over performance. 

 

They should buff wars then the tears of nec will be coming back

[Bale.3851]

1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

They should buff wars then the tears of nec will be coming back

Maybe buff all underperforming classes and not because you just want some specific class to suffer. Would make the game better by miles.