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Why bother with Warrior?


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7 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Ok, so how do I build a Warrior as anti thief as possible?

I mean, I want to absolutely destroy them without breaking a sweat.

 

C'mon, help me out here.

I want thieves to run away... and I mean, absolutely leg it.

It's payback time.

 

Gimme your best build ideas.

I wanna reveal, then totally destroy them little hide and seek buggers.

 

 

I run str dagger all the time, and don’t struggle with the average wvw thief at all.
If you want a harder counter build to thieves, run magebane tether, sight beyond sight, berserker stance, bulls charge, and rage signet.

Magebane tether is for keeping the thief revealed. It gives you a window where the thief is directly attackable (can’t stealth) and will have to either blow through skills (smoke fields, etc.) or stun breaks to get out of it. Sight beyond sight gives an additional reveal to help counter. Berserker stance gives you blind immunity for a short window to get through things like black powder+spin2win. This can drastically change a fight and used to be one of my default utilities until the 2020 patch. Bulls rush is bulls rush. Rage signet helps with adrenaline gain if you aren’t hitting the thief frequently. 

disclaimer; I literally never run this combination of utilities so I have no idea if it would actually be viable in any way. I usually am running SiO, Balance, bulls. That can kill most thieves easily in my experience.

Tips:

- When you see them going through an animation that will result in stealth, use rush. It tracks through stealth and can land a nice chunk of damage. This can be done with bulls, but I would only do that if you’ve tracked their stun-breaks to that point. 

- Don’t be afraid to bait their CCs with mending if you aren’t hurting for health, it can cause them to waste some initiative if don’t correctly.

- When they stealth, they have 3 seconds generally. You can time this to get a counter hit in as they approach (full counter, whirlwind, arcing, etc.). 

- Abuse dagger leaps when they are low on dodges. It’s a great way to land decent DPS and keep them from being comfortable.

- Shield bash will rarely land vs a good thief, so don’t be frustrated if it doesn’t. It’s alright, just be sure to be using it at ideal times, it’ll hit eventually. The process is more important than the outcomes sometimes.

- Disrupting stab is your friend. Disrupting stab-> arcing slice can be a good way to land some damage. Additionally, disrupting->auto, wait for the dodge back, then use one of dagger leaps to follow up can work well as well. 
- don’t waste full counter. Get really good at not wasting it. Also keep track of their steal, it hard counters FC, so try to wait and use FC for after they steal. 
- fight a kitten ton of thieves. It’s a very “feel” based matchup like in warrior mirrors, 

 

Note: I don’t really think warrior will ever hard counter a thief (it’s not supposed to) due to evade/blind/stealth uptimes and ports, but with this setup, you probably are in a 50/50 matchup. 

Edited by oscuro.9720
Clarified some words, probably need to clarify more but I don’t feel like it
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6 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Ok, so how do I build a Warrior as anti thief as possible?

I mean, I want to absolutely destroy them without breaking a sweat.

 

C'mon, help me out here.

I want thieves to run away... and I mean, absolutely leg it.

It's payback time.

 

Gimme your best build ideas.

I wanna reveal, then totally destroy them little hide and seek buggers.

 

 

I would argue condis really hurt thieves along with Good amount of active devenses like aegis and classes that can move and keep up with thieves makes it hard for them to run away to reposition.

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I have had really good luck lately playing condi berserker. See: 

I play almost exclusively PvP, but you could make the build work with a mixture of trailblazer and rabid in WvW (you need at least some precision so you can proc King of Fires).

 

Personally, I find that this build matches up better than power warrior vs just about anything (except Necro...probably better off running power Spellbreaker in that case). Vs thief, some well placed CCs and putting some stacks of burning (even at range) from flaming flurry is usually enough to make them back off. They are still tough to kill, but you are much better able to force a stalemate (a win in its own right) and to seriously punish them if they overcommit and make a mistake. And since condi sticks, they still haven't escaped danger just because they disengage.

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5 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I have had really good luck lately playing condi berserker. See: 

I play almost exclusively PvP, but you could make the build work with a mixture of trailblazer and rabid in WvW (you need at least some precision so you can proc King of Fires).

 

Personally, I find that this build matches up better than power warrior vs just about anything (except Necro...probably better off running power Spellbreaker in that case). Vs thief, some well placed CCs and putting some stacks of burning (even at range) from flaming flurry is usually enough to make them back off. They are still tough to kill, but you are much better able to force a stalemate (a win in its own right) and to seriously punish them if they overcommit and make a mistake. And since condi sticks, they still haven't escaped danger just because they disengage.

Careful with projectiles though. A good thief actually uses stolen skills and the one they steall from warrior is a love child between Warrior axe 5 and Ranger axe 5. You'll be the one eating the Flaming Flurry if you don't also bring unblockables.

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4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Careful with projectiles though. A good thief actually uses stolen skills and the one they steall from warrior is a love child between Warrior axe 5 and Ranger axe 5. You'll be the one eating the Flaming Flurry if you don't also bring unblockables.

Good point. Weapon stowing/swapping is a must if that happens. However, them pulling out whirling axe on you can be a great opportunity: they are usually trying to land damage and not thinking about dodging, so a sudden bulls charge or swapping weapons real quick and landing skull grinder is a great way to punish them. I actually look for them to use WA bc it's one of the few times you can count on the thief to actually stay relatively still.

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7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Good point. Weapon stowing/swapping is a must if that happens. However, them pulling out whirling axe on you can be a great opportunity: they are usually trying to land damage and not thinking about dodging, so a sudden bulls charge or swapping weapons real quick and landing skull grinder is a great way to punish them. I actually look for them to use WA bc it's one of the few times you can count on the thief to actually stay relatively still.

You'd think that but one thief that absolutely wrecked me (I was on axe/axe + rifle) saved the stolen skill only for Volley or Kill Shot. I believe he had Improvisation as well, so he could use them twice. He would reposition  away when I swapped to rifle and use the stolen skill as stated above and if I closed with a CC he'd port again or cancel/dodge away and continue doing his thing. But that guy was a good player, thief also gave him the exact tools to counter the random kitten build I was running that particular day, but that is WvW, sometimes you encounter builds that absolutely counter your own, and all you can do is use the fight as an opportunity to learn and grow.

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On 1/12/2022 at 4:42 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

3 big boss fights in Chaos Legion

JESUS I haven't thought of Chaos Legion is almost a decade! Loved that game!

On topic; yeah a big part holding Warrior back is simply because it's seen as the "normal" profession (i.e. no special gimmicks, magic, etc.) so if it's able to stand toe-to-toe with professions that do have all those bells and whistles (including actual bells and whistles with Rangers) then they decry it as OP. The perception around Warrior needs to be changed to actually bring it up to the same level as other professions.

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guys u beat thief by going spellbreaker, but that's not the point.

berserker and core warrior skills are horribly outdated.

and spellbreaker is single handily carrying the entire class

and bladesworn is yet another bad spec.

^ in terms of skill and functions.

DPS/stats chart for raid/pve excluded as those are just numbers which are easily modifiable.

Edited by felix.2386
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17 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

JESUS I haven't thought of Chaos Legion is almost a decade! Loved that game!

Yeah. Such a master piece.

I played both with Sieg and Arcia on all challenge levels. 

From Easy to Extreme.

Just a shame that you can't play both simultaniously.

I made a version of Sieg here as Elementalist, as elementals are the closest I could get to Legions... only... can't get him to look like Sieg with light armour.... and there's no Gunmage, so can't even do Arcia.

17 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

On topic

Yeah, shall we?

17 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

 

; yeah a big part holding Warrior back is simply because it's seen as the "normal" profession (i.e. no special gimmicks, magic, etc.) so if it's able to stand toe-to-toe with professions that do have all those bells and whistles (including actual bells and whistles with Rangers) then they decry it as OP. The perception around Warrior needs to be changed to actually bring it up to the same level as other professions.

Right.

We need to go past this ancient concept that warriors are melee dedicated classes, and start giving them that little something extra.

 

Imo, warrior needs a complete rework.

Banners should be spawned in their backs, for instance, like a backpack sorta thing.

So in order for warrior to be mobile and carry the effects with them.

 

They also need a traitline that involves some sort of magic... and a set of utility skills to go with it.

 

Look above at Sieg as an example.

Why not?

Warriors could have the ability to summon Legions.

Militia, Blasphemy, Arrogance, Flawed, etc...

 

If not, then give warrior a special ability to collect spirits from defeated foes, that will make charge their weapons with spirit force.

 

Maybe both.

Chaos Legion is a perfect example of how a modern and up to date warrior should be like.

As we've mentioned.

It's time to leave that melee only warrior behind and bring it up to par with the rest of the other classes.

Look at Guardian and Rev... they both use magic aswell as...

 

Just a thought. 

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Coming to Warrior forums and expecting the same level of "outrage" as you would like it to have (in a false feeling that such aggression and displeasure can appease to arenanet) is quite possibly the wrongest thing to do.

 

All of the Warrior players here just accepted that Warrior (and all its elite specs) will be a dumpsterfire that is outclasses and outshined by pretty much all other classes.

 

You either relish in that and enjoy playing Warrior THAT much, or you simply find a profession that will tickle that awesome want to play the game.

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1 hour ago, ysnake.3619 said:

Coming to Warrior forums and expecting the same level of "outrage" as you would like it to have (in a false feeling that such aggression and displeasure can appease to arenanet) is quite possibly the wrongest thing to do.

 

Indeed.

One does not know how to really express themselves... knowing that devs don't really care what we think, and it's highly unlikely that's ever going to change.

 

I have read on twitter a while ago, an ex employee stating that they not only do not care what players say, but also do NOT take criticism very well.

That, from an ex employee, mind.

 

This is the first time I ever stopped playing any game over the "Outrage"

I'm still very annoyed with it.

So much so, that I've been installing my old games to play, including from steam.

...and believe me, I am... WAS, very addicted to this game.

I was averaging 5-10 hours daily.

 

1 hour ago, ysnake.3619 said:

All of the Warrior players here just accepted that Warrior (and all its elite specs) will be a dumpsterfire that is outclasses and outshined by pretty much all other classes.

Right?

 

1 hour ago, ysnake.3619 said:

 

You either relish in that and enjoy playing Warrior THAT much, or you simply find a profession that will tickle that awesome want to play the game.

 

That too.

But as I mentioned before.

Warrior section of the forums are the nicest people I ever seen in the entire forums.

 

Sort of like gente giants here.

Perhaps stats may explain better why that is.

Perhaps it takes more maturity to be a warrior, I don't know.

Just speculating here a bit.

 

But yeah, way too tolerant over the poor treatment warriors have endured.

 

 

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Probably just don't bother with thief if you're on warrior.

There is a lot of warrior vs thief discussion going on here so figured I'd chime in as I play both a moderate amount. To put it clearly as possible; If you're on a typical warrior build up against a typical thief build and you're both knowledgeable of the game and close in skill, the warrior will lose 100% of the time.

At the very least, you won't kill the thief.  If you think this is a close fight, you haven't fought many experienced thief players. If you try to lean into a thief counter build you'll lose too much sustain and utility and still lose. On condi warrior you stand a slightly better chance but the results will most likely be the same. 

The three professions you typically don't want to waste your time fighting on warrior is thief, revenant, and mesmer. With their "meta" builds they will usually have every tool they need to shut a warrior down. Can you beat them? Yes, but this is usually due to a player skill gap and it will be an uphill fight. With warrior you usually want to take fights with professions you can stick to and lack on-demand interrupts. 

Lets say you do want to give thief a run for their money.

I'm going to keep it simple, all we want to do is either kill the thief or make them bugger off.  We don't care about holding odes or any of that. There are a lot of ways to play thief but here we'll just consider what is probably the most popular way to play; D/P Daredevil. When building specifically against this we have to consider a few things;

  1. What is the thief's win condition?
  2. What is our win condition?
  3. What is the best way to too meet both of these conditions?

This is a quick build I've come up with (untested).  Let me explain. 

Weapons

 Greatsword: A must on pretty much all warrior builds. The utility is just too good to be replaced by anything else. Also, the cripple on "Bladetrail" gives us another way to proc "Leg Specialist", more on that later.

Axe/Mace: We don't need the unblockable/boon strip on breaching strike with dagger so we're going to go axe for the better autos, higher burst skill damage, and cripple (Leg Specialist proc)/execute on throw axe. Throw axe also gives us some more ranged poke and a way to clear blind from range if we are low on options. Why mace instead of shield you ask? Longer, ranged CC. This is much easier to land than shield stun and most people don't expect it. Plus crushing blow has some respectable damage. We don't really need shield, this is too easy for a thief to outplay.

Utilites

Throw Bolas:  This is is a bad skill, never take it, bull's charge will be better in most every case. There is a pretty good reason in this case though. Most D/P Thieves are going to be running unhindered combatant. While strong, the draw back is that if you use it and clear a movement impairing condition it inflicts you with exhaustion (-100% endurance regen). We could rely on cripple but this is only will affect them for 2 seconds when cleared and most of the time they can just wait it out. Immob on the other hand will give them 4 seconds of it and it much harder to ignore than cripple. It has the added benefit of being better than cripple for letting us close the distance. Not to mention if they stealth while immobed they still cant move, so you can continue to hit where they last were and continue to punish them if they don't break it. The final reasons for this skill is that it gives us 2 charges, meaning if we get blinded for one we're not totally out of business and since it's ranged we can use it to clear blind in a pinch. 

Shake it off!: You'll never not take this skill. Stun break, condi clear, 2 charges. Just too useful not to have. 

For great justice!: So, we're running tactics. That means this will give a bit of healing, a damage boost, and since we're running rune of the soldier it gives us more condi clear for those kitten blinds. The ideal scenario to use this would be right before we land a burst skill WHILE blinded. A lot of thieves wont bother burning an evade if they know you're blinded and think the skill will miss. In this case though it'll allow you to catch them off guard as you'll boost your burst damage and clear the blind right before it hits.

Mending: Even without the trait, it's just the best heal. There could be an argument for healing signet so you don't have to worry about being interrupted on heals but the healing on that is so bad now it just wont fly. Specially since we're not running might makes right.

Rampage: Just the best option for ult in this scenario. You want to save this until you know they don't have blade storm and are low on initiative. 

Passives:

I'm not going to cover everything in great detail but the main idea here is this; Thief is already pretty squishy so we can get away with trading the damage from strength for tactics. Tactics gives us more on demand healing/cleanses and stacks well with rune of the soldier. The main reason for Tactics though is Leg Specialist. We want to be throwing out immob as often as we can to deny them endurance and lock them down. Also stacking this with rune of the soldier gives us more ways to clear blinds when we need to. I opted for spellbreaker for magebane, immobs, cripple, slow, and of course full counter. Discipline is also another must have. We need the movement speed, burst cooldown reduction and most importantly brawlers recovery as this will be our main way to clear blinds. 

Conclusion/How-to:

  1. Immob, immob, and more immob. This will help you gap close and it will run them out of endurance. 
  2. Burst when you're blinded, then clear with "For great justice!" right before it lands. 
  3. Heal as SOON as they stealth, and on cooldown. A thief is going to be looking to hit and run, but also interrupt your heal. The best time to heal is right as they restealth as this will force their hand. They either have to break stealth and be revealed to stop the heal or commit to the disengage and let you heal. They can work around this with steal, but this is good since it will force them to use an important cooldown they might not have otherwise.
  4. Don't underestimate axe 2 and axe auto damage. When they open on you from stealth turn around and start smacking them. If they are stealthed, swing like a crazy man while turning so it's not an easy, risk free backstab. Axe hurts, specially on a squishy thief.  Same goes when you're in GS.
  5. Don't stand around while they're in stealth but don't haphazardly burn cooldowns/dodges. This comes with practice. You can usually get a "feel" for when they will engage on you, so you can dodge or throw out a whirlwind at those moments. It wont always pay off but is good to be able to do. 
  6. Always try to have at least 1 throw axe, throw bola, or blade trail up at all times. Also, try to make sure to save a throw axe as its a good finisher. 
  7. Weapon swap pretty much on cooldown. They will be applying blind and weakness to you non-stop and this will be your best way to deal with those.

All in all is it a good build? No. This is the best way I can think of though to "counter build" a D/P daredevil. You would probably be better off just practicing against them on the typical spell breaker build. 

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The situation is kinda depressing sure. But I only trust my play of warrior and end up solo roaming EB with 40 q tonight on my roamers (1 for each spec). Fair to say, not a single warrior has been seen today. 2 yesterday, 1 SpB and a Core Warr roamer. Ah an I saw Caedmon too on Zerker lol. Fair to say, we are not built for anything else but running yayyyy...

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7 hours ago, Opopanax.1803 said:

The Defense line needs protection.

Also, Spellbreaker should have protection tied to utilities... they are so worthless right now...

Regen fits SpB more imo and Protection Berserker. And ideally I'd want this new warr spec to be very vigor heavy (even at the cost of a lesser interaction with MMR, so at least other traits outside strength can be considered as options if the spec inherently makes up for that survivability), but sike we got jokesworn, bladejoke, clownsworn, trashwarr etc

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On 1/18/2022 at 6:36 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Regen fits SpB more imo and Protection Berserker. And ideally I'd want this new warr spec to be very vigor heavy (even at the cost of a lesser interaction with MMR, so at least other traits outside strength can be considered as options if the spec inherently makes up for that survivability), but sike we got jokesworn, bladejoke, clownsworn, trashwarr etc

I'd like to see more resolution in warrior's kit as well to help against condi and make Hardened Armor actually somewhat useful. Tbh though I wish they would buff warrior in such a way that made them need boons less. One the of the attractive things about warrior to me is that I don't need many boons to be "effective". Leave that to the guards. 

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