Virtuoso is WELL DESIGNED

[Monkey See.1498]

 

 

Cry harder mesmers. 

[Yoci.2481]

What an entertaining video full of fun and amusement. I just don't see what it has to do with the title of this thread.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

A well designed profession has both outplay potential and counter play. I see a lot of the latter, very little of former. Especially given that without clones virtuoso is gonna be doing a lot more facetanking compared to other mes specs. Facetanking he's not ready for.

Edited January 13, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[SeTect.5918]

4 hours ago, Monkey See.1498 said:

 

 

Cry harder mesmers. 

I have no idea if you r ironic or not.

But the opinion of a youtuber does not have more weight than the opinion of any other player out there.

Edited January 13, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I’m sure Teapot will appreciate the free hits on a fluff video. 
 

 

[Sigmoid.7082]

To be completely fair if you went to each profession's forum to fill out that list everything would be in D tier 😂

Though I am very interested in what they are going to do between B2 and release and what they have changed / addressed.

[Bunny.9834]

His views are definitely....different. 🧐

[Infusion.7149]

You're missing the followup where he says Virtuoso is D tier in PVE and it will probably be an the same or even worse rating in PVP since it has major tells , no clones, and uses mainly slow projectiles for damage.

13 minutes ago, DragonSlayer.1087 said:

His views are definitely....different. 🧐

Watch the video again he clearly says he thinks the concept of cloneless mesmer with blades instead of clones (i.e. the design) is solid but the execution is not. Per his words

 

Quote

 

i do think it's well designed

19:11

um

19:12

they went too hard they probably made it

19:13

too counter playable but they went the

19:15

opposite mirage right like mirage was

19:17

very anti-fun very anti-counter play so

19:19

i said you know what let's make mirage

19:21

like sorry let's make virtuoso the most

19:23

counter playable thing in the entire

19:25

game right and that's basically what

19:27

they do with virtuoso it's ranged it's

19:28

reflectable it's dodgeable right there's

19:30

an animation to it's not instant cast

19:32

and you can see the blades stocking up

19:34

there as well very easily so it's very

19:35

insanely well telegraphed right um yeah

19:38

i think it's well designed

19:39

i think the traits let it down right the

19:42

traits let it down i think so maybe it

19:44

gets demoted because its traits are a

19:47

little bit low energy right i think the

19:49

profession mechanic is really well

19:50

designed i love that we are

19:53

um

19:54

making it cloneless so it can function

19:56

in world versus world right i think

19:58

that's great that was perfect perfect

20:02

great

20:03

the traits though do not

20:05

fully facilitate it to engage in that

20:07

role as a

20:11

well i i'm gonna leave it in at it

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Mik.3401]

I can see you have tried to score a hit thread with that one. Because it is obviously not true and it’s been discussed a 100 million times

[FarmBotXD.1430]

most of the especs are kitten design TBH, but mesmer is worst of the worst.
at the end of the day it will at least make casuals happy, so its not a total disgrace. but anyone playing this game seriously will know this spec is kitten and boring.

[Ombras.2853]

The thing which saddens me is that it doesn’t actually require a lot to make it an interesting spec.

Just allow instant cast shatters, re-buff the damage output (when I saw the nerfs I was like “wtf?”) and put a disengage skill on either main hand Dagger or offhand whatever.

A lot of people wouldn’t be satisfied with this either, but I can assure you that me and many others would.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

33 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

The thing which saddens me is that it doesn’t actually require a lot to make it an interesting spec.

Just allow instant cast shatters, re-buff the damage output (when I saw the nerfs I was like “wtf?”) and put a disengage skill on either main hand Dagger or offhand whatever.

A lot of people wouldn’t be satisfied with this either, but I can assure you that me and many others would.

shatters dont have to be instant, BUT
1 long cast time
2 long delay after cast time
3 low damage
2/3 of these have to go.

[HotDelirium.7984]

Shorter cast time for their shatters since were basically a mesmer howitzer. We have condi builds already for mesmer (covered by staff and mirage) so why do we even need the bleeding traits?

I understand thematically it makes sense (blades make people bleed) but I really see it as another opportunity to do something else maybe even adding further salt in the wound with more effects per bleeding, spreading bleeding, gaining health from bleeding, evading when enough stacks for bleeding etc. If were gona have a trait line for bleeding let's really go in and do something innovative.  Similar to the Specter giving condis that a mob doesn't have...we need something truly interesting than just shatter and dagger pew pews.

How about Virtuoso's third dagger skill be a dual-wield attack so it will be different for pistol, focus, sword and torch? That's amazeballz.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:28 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

You're missing the followup where he says Virtuoso is D tier in PVE and it will probably be an the same or even worse rating in PVP since it has major tells , no clones, and uses mainly slow projectiles for damage.

Watch the video again he clearly says he thinks the concept of cloneless mesmer with blades instead of clones (i.e. the design) is solid but the execution is not. Per his words

 

 

That's the weakness of this class. No mobility/evasion just glass canon howitzer realness. The aegis this class grants is so short its negligible. Shatter 4 is okay but you need a charge and its a 30 sec cooldown. I kind of saw a Virtuoso as spinning around with a pistol or dagger acrobatically and artistically finessing the opponent (like Mystique in the X-men movies).  Maybe if in the future it expounds on its bleeding and blade traits to do even more "interesting" stuff it could have a fighting chance- (super roughly) like a trait that said every XYZ seconds interval how ever many blades you have stocked is granted as aegis in duration (1 to 5 seconds +concentration). It needs to be sexier lol I dunno just thinking out loud. Mesmer is my kind of flavor.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

This is the same dude that said around first beta that Virt is good, on pvp forums and needed no changes. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Justine.6351]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

This is the same dude that said around first beta that Virt is good, on pvp forums and needed no changes. 

But he got so many followers, he must be right.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

6 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

But he got so many followers, he must be right.

Was referring to monkey, not teapot. 

Not like teapot doesn't say a bunch of kitten tho. 

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Was referring to monkey, not teapot. 

Not like teapot doesn't say a bunch of kitten tho. 

Oh ok. I just stick to core myself for wvw and chrono ok in pve.

[Lethion.8745]

I love when people thinks a person's opinion matters just because they are known. That guy has not played anything but Scourge since PoF release. 

[xareo.2596]

You should also check Teapot's following video:

virtuoso is well designed, but USELESS:

useless in PVE

useless in PVP

Edited January 16, 2022 by xareo.2596

[Mungo Zen.9364]

8 minutes ago, xareo.2596 said:

You should also check Teapot's following video:

virtuoso is well designed, but USELESS:

useless in PVE

useless in PVP

It’s all fluff. Until EoD launches this conjecture will continue. I’m glad that a streamer can make a living off of bait and click type content but, these videos really do not further the conversation of what any of the eSpecs will actually play out like. 

[Alpha.1308]

2 hours ago, xareo.2596 said:

You should also check Teapot's following video:

 

yoooooo ahahahahahahaahaa

i love this contradiction 

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

will actually play out like. 

so...... it's..... not well designed???

if it has to go through huge changes to even be worth using?

that was the whole point 

the only argument that it's "wElL DeSiGNEd" is just based on thematics and "prettiness factor"

that's objectively a subjective opinion, because i find the thematics of a "virtuoso" flinging illusionary blades to be pee-poor, even googling "virtuoso blades" comes up with a hilarious result of images of freaking paddles ahahaha

and the "prettiness factor" in my opinion is this is glaringly annoying and too much visual noise 

 

the whole point of the thread was, as in  the OP:

On 1/13/2022 at 8:25 AM, Monkey See.1498 said:

Cry harder mesmers. 

 

the "cries" are for the devs to actually make something good, and they didn't, they didn't even heed warnings of "no slow projectiles for pvp" or "no huge selfish damage and nothing else for pve"

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Alpha.1308

[Jables.4659]

On 1/14/2022 at 3:05 PM, Ombras.2853 said:

Just allow instant cast shatters, re-buff the damage output (when I saw the nerfs I was like “wtf?”) and put a disengage skill on either main hand Dagger or offhand whatever.

I wouldn't be satisfied, but at the very least it would bring Virtuoso in line with my feelings towards the current iteration of Chronomancer in spvp/wvw.  It's just enough that I can have fun messing around on it when I want a break from Core Mesmer, but its ultimately subpar and not something I would use when I'm playing seriously.  

Virtuoso felt about equivalent to one-dodge-mirage in terms of its WvW solo roaming capability (worse than Chrono and a lot worse than Core) while lacking everything that makes Mirage some-what viable in spvp.  

Mesmer was designed from the ground up with clones in mind.  It needs serious work in order to function properly without them. 

[Puck.3697]

why post this as if, teapots view is "every mesmers wrong and virtuoso is amazing".

Teapot stated very clear this is nothing to do with the proffessions performance, hes talking from a point of view of "are virtuoso's mechanics gonna be the next Scourge / Firebrand / Mirage problems of PoF". Virtuoso has Counterplay etc etc which he meritted the design on.

however. he states, Virtuosos Traits let it down massively. and its Ranked pretty terribly in PvE and PvP balancing.

U can say "its cool" without saying "its gonna be powerful".

this seems to me like someones decided to take a video, rip out its context and tried to prove a point. Teapot at no point said Virtuoso is Good. he said from a Design Point of view he thinks its good. but Design and Execution arent the same thing which he goes into later on.

Dont try Skew things to push your own thoughts. as anyone whos watched Teapot or that Stream espically likely knows that is not what he was saying at all.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:43 PM, Alpha.1308 said:

so...... it's..... not well designed???

if it has to go through huge changes to even be worth using?

that was the whole point 

the only argument that it's "wElL DeSiGNEd" is just based on thematics and "prettiness factor"

that's objectively a subjective opinion, because i find the thematics of a "virtuoso" flinging illusionary blades to be pee-poor, even googling "virtuoso blades" comes up with a hilarious result of images of freaking paddles ahahaha

and the "prettiness factor" in my opinion is this is glaringly annoying and too much visual noise 

no. lol theres no Contradiction hes basically stating:

The Design of Virtuoso is good, It has Counter play and it has a Concise purpose from a Conceptual point of view however he states the Traits and Damage of Virtuoso isnt good to compete. Theres a difference between ur consideration to how Healthy the mechanic is fore the good and its Relative Power.

but Teapots also a Player who beleives the power creep of the current Elite options needs bringing down, I>E he thinks ALOT of PoF Speccs are badly designed

The reason Virtuoso at the end of the day feels Weak are partly is the same reason why Its known the vast majority do... its because the Pure Power levels of current elites.

If these Elites came out in HoT And its competition was only Core Speccs its very likely these would all be considered MUCH More positive in balance state. We know they're going to be nerfing down current Elites. but the issue there is it simply doesnt give us a Representation of where the power level should be which creates Doubts as we only have current Elites in current state to compete against.

he thinks Virtuoso from design is fine. he thinks that its Traits and some other things however Let the design down and stop it being very strong. thats a valid point. Virtuoso is Fun. it has its thing. its just not strong enough and its traits are garbage which rly lets the specc down as a whole.