Virtuoso is WELL DESIGNED

[Levetty.1279]

27 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

no. lol theres no Contradiction hes basically stating:

The Design of Virtuoso is good, It has Counter play and it has a Concise purpose from a Conceptual point of view however he states the Traits and Damage of Virtuoso isnt good to compete. Theres a difference between ur consideration to how Healthy the mechanic is fore the good and its Relative Power.

but Teapots also a Player who beleives the power creep of the current Elite options needs bringing down, I>E he thinks ALOT of PoF Speccs are badly designed

The reason Virtuoso at the end of the day feels Weak are partly is the same reason why Its known the vast majority do... its because the Pure Power levels of current elites.

If these Elites came out in HoT And its competition was only Core Speccs its very likely these would all be considered MUCH More positive in balance state. We know they're going to be nerfing down current Elites. but the issue there is it simply doesnt give us a Representation of where the power level should be which creates Doubts as we only have current Elites in current state to compete against.

he thinks Virtuoso from design is fine. he thinks that its Traits and some other things however Let the design down and stop it being very strong. thats a valid point. Virtuoso is Fun. it has its thing. its just not strong enough and its traits are garbage which rly lets the specc down as a whole.

But the virtuoso is literally Mesmer 0.5. That isn't a well designed elite spec. Buffing its damage up to 60k dps so its stronger then PoF elite specs won't suddenly make it well designed.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

But the virtuoso is literally Mesmer 0.5. That isn't a well designed elite spec. Buffing its damage up to 60k dps so its stronger then PoF elite specs won't suddenly make it well designed.

Well designed is a very opinonated point of view realistically.

I like what virtuoso does. i think the ideas cool, i like the animations and concept.

However. that doesnt mean i dont see the fact, the specc doesnt do enough DPS to justify a Pure DPS Role. its Traits are garbage and Dont do anything about the fact how Core Clones are to the proffession and somehow link this to the new blade mechanics.. ontop of this.

and your Right.. number buffs wont fix PoF but PoF Speccs are incredibly bad designed and Need Nerfing More then just Numbers.

Imho.

FIrebrand needs Quickness Removed Entirely.

Barrier needs to become a Self-only Buff.

Aegis Needs to be a Self only buff.

Ren needs taking down to 5 man Alacrity and be forced to run Pure boon Builds to provide alacrity.

Chrono being both a Tank and Quickness provider in 1 build also needs dealing with.

The Boon providing needs bringing down. the DPS of support builds Need bringing Down and Role compression needs reducing.

[Levetty.1279]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

its Traits are garbage and Dont do anything about the fact how Core Clones are to the proffession and somehow link this to the new blade mechanics

Exactly. These are massive design flaws in Virtuoso.

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Chrono being both a Tank and Quickness provider in 1 build also needs dealing with.

This is more a flaw in how tanking in the game works. But in regards to Chrono I will go one step further. Alacrity needs to be reverted to a self buff like it originally was intended.

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Exactly. These are massive design flaws in Virtuoso.

This is more a flaw in how tanking in the game works. But in regards to Chrono I will go one step further. Alacrity needs to be reverted to a self buff like it originally was intended.

The problem with reverting alacrity is.. the games less fun playing at the games standard GCD pace really. 

That and it'd require some serious rebalancing things like weaver are dependent on alacrity. 

It's kinda annoying to have everything on 2 speeds tho. 

As without alacrity and quickness... Your abilities recharge much slower. 

[Alpha.1308]

13 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

no. lol theres no Contradiction

 

13 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

he thinks Virtuoso from design is fine. he thinks that its Traits and some other things however Let the design down and stop it being very strong. thats a valid point. Virtuoso is Fun. it has its thing. its just not strong enough and its traits are garbage which rly lets the specc down as a whole.

 

13 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Virtuoso is Fun. it has its thing.

 

i love how you tell me there's no contradiction

then contradict your own argument in the same comment

"it's fine"

"except the traits"

"and its power levels"

"also its fun to me so neener neener neener"

 

what else can we look at that an e-spec offers?

the only thing at that point that changes/gets added are the shatter skills, the dagger, and the utility skills

 

the shatter skills are one of the biggest problems next to the traits, sooo????

how can you even look at that as a positive for the spec to be "good" or "fun" in any capacity?

 

explain exactly how projectiles being weak, disgustingly slow in both cast time and velocity, coming out in bursts, and lacking in overall pressure, as well as physically not being unique at all because they're just core shatters turned into projectiles, is somehow a  "ConCIse pUrPosE FROM a ConCEpTiOnAL PoINt OF VieW"?

 

"fun" is also subjective, but i'm still questioning how the exact same rotation of "build up clones/blades then shatter BUT NOW WITH A CAST TIME" is "fun"

i mean, is it "fine"? of course, i'm "fine" with it being core shatters AGAIN for a third e-spec, not that i want it to be

i personally don't mind that at face value, to be fair, but that really isn't even my gripe with it

but realistically, it's just not any different

it adds nothing

i wouldn't go around telling anyone it's unique or fun or anything other than what we've had before

but it's certainly not a point i'd call problematic on its own

however, we can just ignore you trying to call it "fun" if you don't have a strong enough argument to combat "it's the same thing as core but slower with projectiles for counterplay now instead of pets"

 

 

 

the dagger is flimsy at best due in part by the clunkiness of skill 2 that they tried too hard to make unique, but ended up with a "meh" overall concept that will most likely fail its intended purpose of "hur dur you can choose to fan aoe or delay an attack on a single target orrrrrrr you can aim at the ground for faster single target spike", and i doubt that can be fixed by minor tweaks

 

then the 3 is just a big projectile that literally spits more projectiles

in pve, i haven't tried it, but like??? won't that thing just... leave the fight???? is it even going to do the majority of its output or will half of it get wasted when it just leaves?

in pvp, it'll just get reflected

that's not "counterplay"

that's "don't use this skill or you'll look like the lowest tier casual pvper" 

not to mention the huge visual clutter for no purpose other than to make streamers go "it pretty so it cool"

 

 

it's got a single well-like utility (which??? should have been a chrono skill since they got... wells????)  and even that one still lacks a good enough power coefficient to be useful, which i guess is a simple fix and it'd be fine, but that one utility ain't going to be carrying this class in pve open world, pve raiding, small scale pvp, or wvw, which, ya know, are the only 4 game modes this game even has to offer, nobody picking virtuoso for one single zoning tool

at least i hope it won't, otherwise, that's still not a good design, either, to have one skill be your shining moment 

also obscene visual noise, if we still acting like opinions matter here

 

the same problem with the elite, it got another well, which doesn't even have a great enough power coefficient, and to top it off has an awful hitbox, but even if we say these can be fixed,  two strong wells won't make an e-spec "good" or "fun" or "well designed", ignoring well pun

 

TL;DR
i don't watch this teapots videos, but the OP made a post, and told us to watch it, without any other context other than telling us we're wrong (those who disapprove with virtuoso) 

the OP tried to make a point 

it failed

bad

there's no point bringing up teapots previous whateveritmaybe because what i saw was someone calling something "well designed" that they then placed low on usability lists for the only two game modes 

good traits won't solve the core rotation turned slower

coefficient alterations won't make it anymore "fun" or "unique" 

 

is it "possible" for them to fix it with minor adjustments?

yea, sure, i still think it has the makings to be "fine"

but right now, with what we've seen in anets history, they'll probably slap on some damage modifiers on it or swap some coefficients and call it fine because it tops charts in pve

 

i'm totally fine with being proved wrong with that, however 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Alpha.1308

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Alpha.1308 said:

but right now, with what we've seen in anets history, they'll probably slap on some damage modifiers on it or swap some coefficients and call it fine because it tops charts in pve

 

i'm totally fine with being proved wrong with that, however 

No ones saying Virtuosos good?

He said from a Game Health point of view Virtuoso scores high as it doesnt bring any Overpowered Mechanics into the game. its not AIDs to play against and doesnt Break any Rules.

Thats what thats all about as Teapot feels alot of PoF Speccs are Rule breaky and have overpowered or broken mechanics inside.

also the Litteral thumbnail has written on it "The Coolest Elite speccs". like this is a HUGELY opinonated subject for one.. but its his opinon that Virtuoso is Cool lol. this is in no way a Prediction saying its "going to be meta" or be a "Strong candidate" or be "overpowered". its Just saying from a Animational Point of view It looks cool and as Someone playing against it.. its Not Breaking Rules and its Mechanics arent wildly over the top.

He said very clearly. He knows the Traits let it down massively. Design Isnt Traits or power level though is it.

Design is Animations, Proffession Mechanics etc etc

Traits are a List of optional Passives which are susposed to bolster parts of its Design to Excel at something. which is very much doesnt.

Feel your Misunderstanding what hes talking about when he talked Design.. because he was in no way or shape including its Traits or the Specific things its blades do in those opinons of its Design. he said it looked cool. and it isnt Unhealthy for the game.

and Yes..99% of the misunderstanding is because the OP Tried to rip something out of context and use it as something to Dissprove something incorrectly.

That chart is effectively talking about what speccs are and arent healthy to the game as a whole. not their precise power or if he feels their complete

Edited January 19, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Yoci.2481]

2 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

but even if we say these can be fixed,  two strong wells won't make an e-spec "good" or "fun" or "well designed", ignoring well pun

RIP my spin-off parody Chronomancer thread.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Yoci.2481

[Salt Mode.3780]

Thats the issue with the game isnt it. Unless you scrap all of PoF and even HoT e-specs you are not going to make ANY EoD specs be taken seriously. The game with HoT and PoF has quicken how the game is played compared to Core days, trying to go back to Core days is 2 expansions too late. 

Based on changes its clear ANET doesn't play their game enough to balance their game, perhaps they should stop using GM commands and test out their classes. Or perhaps showcase how the EoD espec work in a raid scenario or even PvP scenario instead of typing GM commands and testing it on a dummy. 

Even in a PvE scenario with how the bosses work and how mechanics work, even Core days would not be able to handle the overload because those bosses were made with the mindset of the especs that were created. Only reason why certain classes are facerolling certain bosses falls under bad balancing and again it goes back to devs not playing their game to understand what needs balancing.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Waywolf.9357]

and to be honest even that Guy from Anet was wondering why the Virtuoso has two Evades in his presentation Video just says it all: No plan on what they are doing xD

at the end of the Nerf Phase after EoD launch Virtuoso will be like Mirage but without clones xD And some more shiny effects wich are helping more the Enemies than yourself 

[Daishi.6027]

"well designed" is not as opinionated or subjective as some people here are arguing.

Any "Design" that is not synonymous with "intention", "aspiration", or "machination" requires context to the setting when determining it's value; it simply doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Someone could make a hypothetical "well designed" system for anything, but it's not a well designed system if it doesn't actually work. Because the moment it is put into place or practice and falls apart in the context of the world around it; it ceases to be "well designed." you notice this a lot with political matters.

Any youtuber should be taken with a grain of salt, but OP coming here being like "cry more mesmers" When the youtuber he points going "it's well designed", as if his words are some objective standard; Then turns around and says it's pretty much garbage, and OP thinks of it as some kind of "Own" is simply proof why intellectual disability is such a rampant problem.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Daishi.6027

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

honestly, my first thought while playing Virtuoso in beta was:

 

"Why isn't this the new elementalist spec?"

 

really. the spawned illusionary daggers could have been based on the element the PC was in when the dagger was summoned, and it would have worked. imagine spawning fire daggers, air / lightning daggers, water / ice daggers, earth / glass / diamond daggers, and then launching them at your foe all at the same time...

 

granted, a different main hand weapon would have to be used... but... i'm just saying... it's a fun PvE ranged kiting spec.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Forgotten Legend.9281

[The Boz.2038]

11 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

granted, a different main hand weapon would have to be used...

Perhaps a... pistol?

Introducing The Bulletstorm!

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

On 1/31/2022 at 7:17 AM, Daishi.6027 said:

"well designed" is not as opinionated or subjective as some people here are arguing.

Any "Design" that is not synonymous with "intention", "aspiration", or "machination" requires context to the setting when determining it's value; it simply doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

Honestly, even using "design" as synonymous with "intention" shows an objective measure of how badly designed virtuoso is.
Anet has explicitly said that they designed virtuoso as a shatter, ranged, damage oriented e-spec, and yet it does not shatter any more than other especs (in fact it shatters less than chronomancer), it's often more advantageous to use it at short range, and its damage ranges from mediocre to straight up lacking.

They designed this e-spec to be something. It's not that thing, therefore it's objectively badly designed.

[mungozen.2379]

21 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

Anet has explicitly said that they designed virtuoso as a shatter, ranged, damage oriented e-spec

Where did they say this?

The design was primarily based around not using clones and, they achieved that.  The design was executed by replacing clones with blades and then added some mechanical differences (Blade Stacking not tied to a single target, Blade Stacks staying out of combat).

The design is fine, but one could argue the execution is lacking, as the Dagger is still the worst weapon for Virtuoso as of the last Beta.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Where did they say this?

The design was primarily based around not using clones and, they achieved that.  The design was executed by replacing clones with blades and then added some mechanical differences (Blade Stacking not tied to a single target, Blade Stacks staying out of combat).

The design is fine, but one could argue the execution is lacking, as the Dagger is still the worst weapon for Virtuoso as of the last Beta.

Pretty sure the dude who keeps drinking water said that in the virtuoso showcase

Regardless im pretty sure chrono still has a better shatter uptime then Virtuoso due to built in alacrity when shattering which reduces CD on shatter intervals

In terms of a range shatter, as i recall in PvP and WvW even just general dueling people still mid to close range shatter to ensure that it will hit and not miss because of slight elevation of terrain or being able to sidestep the shatter. In PvE you will most likely stand close to boss to be in the boon bubble uptime.

So I guess Virtuoso offers "new" resource but that's about it. Can't tank or offer boons like Chrono can in Raids, really cant beat Mirage in open world soloing nor can it beat Mirage GS for tagging mobs in events etc....

On the bright side you can now manage your resource out of combat, only need 5 daggers to do less damage then 3 clones....I guess thats the real reason why they will allow u to have resource upkeep when out of combat you simply wont be doing enough damage with shatters without any to start with.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

3 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Where did they say this?

The design was primarily based around not using clones and, they achieved that.  The design was executed by replacing clones with blades and then added some mechanical differences (Blade Stacking not tied to a single target, Blade Stacks staying out of combat).

The design is fine, but one could argue the execution is lacking, as the Dagger is still the worst weapon for Virtuoso as of the last Beta.

 

CmC was in an interview with MightyTeapot and there he mentioned Virtuoso is meant to be a DPS spec with a focus on shattering, hence why they increased blade generation in the second beta.

[Salt Mode.3780]

8 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

CmC was in an interview with MightyTeapot and there he mentioned Virtuoso is meant to be a DPS spec with a focus on shattering, hence why they increased blade generation in the second beta.

Sadly increasing blade generation isnt the same as being able to shatter more often if the shatter CDs are the same without a way to reduce the CD per blade used or something along the lines. So Chrono is still the premier shatter spec.

[mungozen.2379]

17 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

CmC was in an interview with MightyTeapot and there he mentioned Virtuoso is meant to be a DPS spec with a focus on shattering, hence why they increased blade generation in the second beta.

Thanks, I just watched it for the first time.  Didn't know CmC or any Dev was involved with this type of deep dive, that is pretty cool to see.

8 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sadly increasing blade generation isnt the same as being able to shatter more often if the shatter CDs are the same without a way to reduce the CD per blade used or something along the lines. So Chrono is still the premier shatter spec.

and in watching it it sounded like they were talking about players failing to use Bladesongs due to Blade generation being low.  They want players to use the Bladesongs but they never say 'it's the shatter spec'.  Just that they want it to Shatter more than in Beta 1.  At least that was my take-away.

Interesting to hear about the Unblockable trait, and how Beta 4 might not have done enough for Virtuoso in PvP/WvW, according to CmC.

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

and in watching it it sounded like they were talking about players failing to use Bladesongs due to Blade generation being low.  They want players to use the Bladesongs but they never say 'it's the shatter spec'.  Just that they want it to Shatter more than in Beta 1.  At least that was my take-away.

Lol then aside from a "new" resource virtuoso doesnt offer anything "new" to the table. If the shatters (bladesongs) are not the highlight of Virtuoso then I fail to see how this spec differs from core. In actuality probably worse then core because you are forced to take on a kitten traitline. 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

13 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

but they never say 'it's the shatter spec'.

 

They say, word for word, "Virtuoso slots in as the shatter-oriented spec".

And any issue blade generation might've had was because virtuoso can stack up to 5 blades, as opposed to other mesmer specs that stack up to 3 clones, so it was doing full-stack shatters *less often* than other mesmer especs. With better blade generation it's shattering about the same amount of times as core mesmer.

[mungozen.2379]

5 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

"Virtuoso slots in as the shatter-oriented spec".

"If Virtuoso slots in as more of the Shatter oriented character that gives it a bit more of a different identity than what the Mirage is already doing"

 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

1 minute ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

"If Virtuoso slots in as more of the Shatter oriented character that gives it a bit more of a different identity than what the Mirage is already doing"

 

 

Yeah? Don't see how that contradicts anything. Clearly means they want Virtuoso's identity to be shatter-focused.

[mungozen.2379]

10 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

Yeah? Don't see how that contradicts anything. Clearly means they want Virtuoso's identity to be shatter-focused.

When you misquote a quote, it changes the information within.  You paraphrased what was said, omitting both the context and added the specific "the" shatter spec, which they never said.  They were talking about Virtuoso in context with Mirage, never talking about Chrono in that context nor Mesmer as a whole.

I do not mind being wrong, I do not mind learning new stuff. 

What I do mind is misquotes that come from the community that are misleading, even if with good intentions.  Someone reads what you said without watching the video themselves, might actually believe that "Virtuoso is the shatter spec" but that is wrong. 

Anet has never said Virtuoso is the shatter spec, and by understanding the profession, one can see that Chrono has access to way more Shatters than Virtuoso.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

When you misquote a quote, it changes the information within.  You paraphrased what was said, omitting both the context and added the specific "the" shatter spec, which they never said.  They were talking about Virtuoso in context with Mirage, never talking about Chrono in that context nor Mesmer as a whole.

I do not mind being wrong, I do not mind learning new stuff. 

What I do mind is misquotes that come from the community that are misleading, even if with good intentions.  Someone reads what you said without watching the video themselves, might actually believe that "Virtuoso is the shatter spec" but that is wrong. 

Anet has never said Virtuoso is the shatter spec, and by understanding the profession, one can see that Chrono has access to way more Shatters than Virtuoso.

 

The context is CmC was explaining what he envisioned the identity for Virtuoso to be. He explains the intention is for it to be a damage dealer, and the focus of this damage to be on shattering. He compares it to Mirage, saying both are damage dealers, but while Mirage wants to keep clones alive to deal damage, Virtuoso focuses on shattering.

I cannot understand how you or anyone would hear that and not conclude that they want Virtuoso to be a shatter-focused spec.

Getting past that, we end up with the fact that it's not any more shatter-focused than chrono or even core, so its identity falls flat.

[phokus.8934]

Losing shattered Distortion and staggered clone daze alone makes it a badly designed elite.