Match start guidance text

[SlipLihte.1307]

So I've noticed in a couple of games now that some players have a short bit of guidance text that they paste into the team chat at the start of games. Usually these are to try to avoid at least some of the more basic rotational problems (e.g. feeding into mid and fighting off point with no nodes capped).

 

I want to do something similar -  I have sometimes typed things out up to now, but I think having something ready and prepared in notepad or some such might be easier and faster. In particular, I'm looking for three to five bullets that I can quickly paste at the start of a match, e.g:

1) Don't run into outnumbered fights (especially at mid).
2) Disengage from fights you are going to lose.
3) Don't fight off point unless we are far ahead/have more nodes capped than they do.
4) Most games can be won on two nodes - don't push to cap far unnecessarily rather just decap.
etc.

 

Having looked at the forums, the closest thing to this I can find is this post by Trevor Boyer.6524 but it's far too long for what I'm intending.

 

As a new PvPer I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions? The above is my amateurish first try, and open to criticism. Admittedly it's not a silver bullet, and I suspect a lot of people will just ignore these (and hopefully players who know what they are doing will know when to ignore these) - but I have had games where having these reminders at the start was really useful.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

For the third point you made its not always true. Most low-mid rated players swear by "fight on point" but there are many situations where that is not the best course of action.

For example, if your teammate is losing a fight nearby and you have the ability to swing the outcome, winning the fight is almost always more important than sitting on a node to full cap or decap. This is especially true if its a 2v1 because your teammate will lose the 2v1, then you will lose the 2v1 and the cap you just got. Its far better to go make the fight a 2v2, try and win it, and then cap the point after.

Generally speaking its almost always better to kite off a node if you are too pressured to survive on it. Staying alive means you still have a presence on the map and can stall enemy rotations, wait for a plus, and threaten decaps if they leave.

 

For the fourth point, you basically just dont want to rotate into enemy respawns at far and get outnumbered. And this goes for all nodes but is especially true for the far node, dont bother to full cap a node that the enemy will immediately decap.

[Zexanima.7851]

One of the biggest miss-steps I see people do (and I do myself some times because I'm on auto pilot) is that when we lose multiple separate fights and our respawns are staggered, people just continue to trickle in and feed the rest of the game. It's hard for people to "reset" because you're standing at spawn waiting on other respawn timers and it feels like you're doing nothing. On the flip side you can win matches a lot of times by staggering respawns. Say you down two enemies, you might stomp one and then bleed out or wait a good 10-15 seconds to stomp the other if you're given the luxury to do so. This will stagger their respawns and you'll most likely snowball the rest of the game because they'll trickle and feed. This is often how you can find yourself pushed to the point of being camped at spawn. 

 

Another issue I see is trying to force team fights in mid. Some times the other team will just be built better for larger team fights. Say they have a support shout guard and you don't. In this case I find it better to fight side nodes. This lessens the value of their team fight potential. If their support is supporting two others at home, that means the two at far are not getting supported. Then they are only getting value on 2 people max, vs the guard getting value on 3-4 people fighting mid. This is not ALWAYS the case but if you can't win mid fights this is a possible solution. 

 

So a couple points I would add are;

 

1) If our respawns are staggered or we're trickling in, regroup and push out as a team. 

2) If we can't win team fights on mid, focus side nodes and split their resources.

[Zexanima.7851]

10 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

For the third point you made its not always true. Most low-mid rated players swear by "fight on point" but there are many situations where that is not the best course of action.

For example, if your teammate is losing a fight nearby and you have the ability to swing the outcome, winning the fight is almost always more important than sitting on a node to full cap or decap. This is especially true if its a 2v1 because your teammate will lose the 2v1, then you will lose the 2v1 and the cap you just got. Its far better to go make the fight a 2v2, try and win it, and then cap the point after.

Generally speaking its almost always better to kite off a node if you are too pressured to survive on it. Staying alive means you still have a presence on the map and can stall enemy rotations, wait for a plus, and threaten decaps if they leave.

 

For the fourth point, you basically just dont want to rotate into enemy respawns at far and get outnumbered. And this goes for all nodes but is especially true for the far node, dont bother to full cap a node that the enemy will immediately decap.

 

Yessss, I often see people pushing mindlessly into far not thinking about enemy respawns. First of all we only need two points to win. Secondly, if we just wiped them all mid then they are going to all be respawning so if 1-2 decide to push far for some reason you're just going to get respawned on and rolled. Usually the best things you can do if you win the initial mid fight is just to sit tight and take good positioning for the next fight or go help your home node if there is a 1v1 going IFFFF you can finish up that fight before they all get back to mid. 

If you go to assist in a 1v1 but it takes you longer than 15-20 seconds to clean up its probably not worth staying so rotate back to the team fight.  So taking into consideration Paradoxoglanis's point I would revise to;

1) If our respawns are staggered or we're trickling in, regroup and push out as a team. 

2) If we can't win team fights on mid, focus side nodes and split their resources.

3) Keep an eye on enemy respawns/map locations and rotate accordingly.

4) Don't sacrifice helping in team fights to assist in 1v1s

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Zexanima.7851

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, SlipLihte.1307 said:

1) Don't run into outnumbered fights (especially at mid).
2) Disengage from fights you are going to lose.
3) Don't fight off point unless we are far ahead/have more nodes capped than they do.
4) Most games can be won on two nodes - don't push to cap far unnecessarily rather just decap.
etc.

The problem I have with this is that these only make sense in a very specific context (even though we see that context a hell of a lot), and given how plentiful the reasons you might stay or leave a node are even now, telling people that they should play this way, rather than make smart decisions on their own might make them easier to exploit.

For example:

1.) if two people are at mid, you are bunker or running a damage inversion or mitigation skill and your teammate will arrive very shortly, and mid is about to flip to neutral, there might be a situation in which you can do this. 

2.) You may want to down on the node to continue stalling its capture progress. this can in some cases win games. 

3.)If your opponents are zerging and would rather let you kite them far away while a teammate decaps, in some very rare  it is prudent to oblige them, especially if you can weaken their presence at a secondary objective. if you can harass a support before they get to the point they intend, this may also be prudent. 

4.) Pushing far is in some cases fine, as long as you can retrieve the node and have presence  to support your team before enough players respawn to push where they are weak, especially if they are having difficulty obtaining a secondary objective. 

Quote

1) If our respawns are staggered or we're trickling in, regroup and push out as a team. 

2) If we can't win team fights on mid, focus side nodes and split their resources.

3) Keep an eye on enemy respawns/map locations and rotate accordingly.

4) Don't sacrifice helping in team fights to assist in 1v1s

I like these more. I would be more generic with any tips being shown before the match and have an NPC with the fight theory.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Zexanima.7851]

28 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The problem I have with this is that these only make sense in a very specific context (even though we see that context a hell of a lot), and given how plentiful the reasons you might stay or leave a node are even now, telling people that they should play this way, rather than make smart decisions on their own might make them easier to exploit.

For example:

1.) if two people are at mid, you are bunker or running a damage inversion or mitigation skill and your teammate will arrive very shortly, and mid is about to flip to neutral, there might be a situation in which you can do this. 

2.) You may want to down on the node to continue stalling its capture progress. this can in some cases win games. 

3.)If your opponents are zerging and would rather let you kite them far away while a teammate decaps, in some very rare  it is prudent to oblige them, especially if you can weaken their presence at a secondary objective. if you can harass a support before they get to the point they intend, this may also be prudent. 

4.) Pushing far is in some cases fine, as long as you can retrieve the node and have presence  to support your team before enough players respawn to push where they are weak, especially if they are having difficulty obtaining a secondary objective. 

I like these more. I would be more generic with any tips being shown before the match and have an NPC with the fight theory.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 Makes a good point, these need to be generic and digestible as possible. The way I see it is that tips like these serve two purposes. One is to remind seasoned players as even the most experienced players will slip up and second is to inform newer players. In that respect I would limit this to 3 points (maybe 4 max if you can make a good argument for including a 4th). Then I would limit each of the points to 2 sentences max. This needs to be something someone can read, digest, and implement within the 1 minute prep time before the match and even answer questions if anyone has any. Considering this I might further revise to;

 

1) Don't fight outnumbered. If our respawns are staggered or we're trickling in regroup and push out as a team. 

2) We only need two nodes to win so if we can't win team fights on mid focus side nodes and split their resources. 

3) Keep an eye on enemy respawns/map locations and rotate accordingly. Do not sacrifice team fight potential to help in a 1v1.

[SlipLihte.1307]

Thanks for the feedback on this! Will start using from today, hopefully there are mostly positives that come from this.

[Zexanima.7851]

8 minutes ago, SlipLihte.1307 said:

Thanks for the feedback on this! Will start using from today, hopefully there are mostly positives that come from this.

I'm interested to see how it goes! Feel free to revive this thread once you've used it. We could probably further improve it at that point.