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Look what they did to the Mursaat story, Primordus and Jormag, and so many others. Butchered and rushed.   Useless and awful characters like Braham living way... wayyyy past their expiration

Rushed or slow, as long as Taimi goes away, I'll call it a success.     

You mean they made Lazarus, the guy who was a total stooge who got outplayed by one of his servants in GW1, a minor character instead of making him some two expansion long machavelian super villain no

6 hours ago, piitb.7635 said:

I personally believe ANet's storytelling has improved over the years   Replay the vanilla GW2 story and and compare to the newer stuff, and anyone will realize there is a big improvement because base GW2 story was awful.

 

 

That being said, the story telling still has glaring weaknesses.  It feels like they miss telling crucial information or they just assume you know this faction does this, this faction does that.  For example, the Forged, they are never mentioned prior to PoF, then you set sail to Elona and magically you know everything about them and who they are.

 

Also villains are just kind of shoe horned in.  and you fight them almost abruptly as they appear and its just awkward storytelling.  It's like there is little to no character development and then *boom* a boss battle we should care about. 

 

And speaking of abruptness and villains, the main bad guys like Balth. Mordremoth, etc... you just kind of fight there fights out of the blue it feels like.  The Zaitan and Kralk had proper lead up, but the rest, its all the sudden here is the final battle.

 

ANet also doesn't utilize your NPC companions well enough.  FF14 had this issue as well.  The NPC dialog has improved, but GW2 gets kind this "Main character has to do everything and is Mary Sue'd"

 

ANet has room for improvement

 

Yeah, I get that...a lot of MMO's have similar problems with story, though. ESO the story is so lackluster I just can't stay interested despite loving Elder Scrolls as a genre and loving the game world itself. SWTOR the story from the last two expansions has been completely hand-waved away like it never existed so nothing our characters did mattered one lick. That, coupled with a completely toxic fandom, caused me to leave the game entirely. The only MMO that seems to have an over-abundance of story is LoTRO and that's because they have Tolkien's entire universe to play with. I love that game and it will always have a special place in my heart...to the point where I still subscribe if only to support them in hopes they will continue to tell stories from Middle Earth. (They did announce a huge graphics overhaul they've been working on so *fingers crossed* the game will be brought back to relevancy at some point in the not too distant future.)

One thing of note...I do believe we got a tiny bit of backstory on the Forged. Not sure if I'd call it backstory, but if I remember right, we do learn that Balthazar had worked with Joko and Joko was the one who created the Forged for him...or at least gave him the means to create the Forged...somehow transferring souls into the machine parts. Then Balthazar betrayed Joko and that's how Joko ended up in the Domain of the Lost. I don't quite know what the point of the Forged are...short of being goons, though. 

Now...I really wish we got more development on Joko. Like who he is and how he came to power and what are his motivations, like does he just want everybody to die? I really like his character and Season 4 was one of my favorites just because of him. He's fabulous, lol. But I feel like we don't learn enough about him. Like we get to Elona and are expected to know who Joko is and how he took over. 

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2 minutes ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

 

Yeah, I get that...a lot of MMO's have similar problems with story, though. ESO the story is so lackluster I just can't stay interested despite loving Elder Scrolls as a genre and loving the game world itself. SWTOR the story from the last two expansions has been completely hand-waved away like it never existed so nothing our characters did mattered one lick. That, coupled with a completely toxic fandom, caused me to leave the game entirely. The only MMO that seems to have an over-abundance of story is LoTRO and that's because they have Tolkien's entire universe to play with. I love that game and it will always have a special place in my heart...to the point where I still subscribe if only to support them in hopes they will continue to tell stories from Middle Earth. (They did announce a huge graphics overhaul they've been working on so *fingers crossed* the game will be brought back to relevancy at some point in the not too distant future.)

One thing of note...I do believe we got a tiny bit of backstory on the Forged. Not sure if I'd call it backstory, but if I remember right, we do learn that Balthazar had worked with Joko and Joko was the one who created the Forged for him...or at least gave him the means to create the Forged...somehow transferring souls into the machine parts. Then Balthazar betrayed Joko and that's how Joko ended up in the Domain of the Lost. 

Now...I really wish we got more development on Joko. Like who he is and how he came to power and what are his motivations, like does he just want everybody to die? I really like his character and Season 4 was one of my favorites just because of him. He's fabulous, lol. But I feel like we don't learn enough about him. Like we get to Elona and are expected to know who Joko is and how he took over. 

Play gw1 to get the Joko info mate.

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13 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Play gw1 to get the Joko info mate.

That right there is the problem. Folks can't be expected to play a completely different game to get an understanding. Not when it comes to an MMO. GW1 is ancient...and unplayable to many due to the mechanics and the graphics. I played it once upon a time and I had a hard time doing so because I don't group and that game doesn't play like this one. You need to group to be able to do it. I hit a wall because I don't group, and I gave up. I would love to be able to play GW1...unless things have changed from when it first came out. 

There should be a way to get the important info you need for story content...within this game. Whether it's through dialogue, or recap cutaways, or books you find somewhere. Somehow...it needs to be there within this game.

The wiki has been my only way of getting information on a lot of things. 

Single-player games as a series, yes I can see it...totally fine. Play one to understand two. But not MMO's.  

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58 minutes ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

 

Yeah, I get that...a lot of MMO's have similar problems with story, though. ESO the story is so lackluster I just can't stay interested despite loving Elder Scrolls as a genre and loving the game world itself. SWTOR the story from the last two expansions has been completely hand-waved away like it never existed so nothing our characters did mattered one lick. That, coupled with a completely toxic fandom, caused me to leave the game entirely. The only MMO that seems to have an over-abundance of story is LoTRO and that's because they have Tolkien's entire universe to play with. I love that game and it will always have a special place in my heart...to the point where I still subscribe if only to support them in hopes they will continue to tell stories from Middle Earth. (They did announce a huge graphics overhaul they've been working on so *fingers crossed* the game will be brought back to relevancy at some point in the not too distant future.)

One thing of note...I do believe we got a tiny bit of backstory on the Forged. Not sure if I'd call it backstory, but if I remember right, we do learn that Balthazar had worked with Joko and Joko was the one who created the Forged for him...or at least gave him the means to create the Forged...somehow transferring souls into the machine parts. Then Balthazar betrayed Joko and that's how Joko ended up in the Domain of the Lost. I don't quite know what the point of the Forged are...short of being goons, though. 

Now...I really wish we got more development on Joko. Like who he is and how he came to power and what are his motivations, like does he just want everybody to die? I really like his character and Season 4 was one of my favorites just because of him. He's fabulous, lol. But I feel like we don't learn enough about him. Like we get to Elona and are expected to know who Joko is and how he took over. 

Regarding Joko, I guess much of his backstory is in the first guild wars as well as the pre gw2 stories like movement of the world. It explains how he came to power a bit more. Unfortunately for those unfamiliar with it, there isn't a lot of that ingame.

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1 hour ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

That right there is the problem. Folks can't be expected to play a completely different game to get an understanding. Not when it comes to an MMO. GW1 is ancient...and unplayable to many due to the mechanics and the graphics. I played it once upon a time and I had a hard time doing so because I don't group and that game doesn't play like this one. You need to group to be able to do it. I hit a wall because I don't group, and I gave up. I would love to be able to play GW1...unless things have changed from when it first came out. 

There should be a way to get the important info you need for story content...within this game. Whether it's through dialogue, or recap cutaways, or books you find somewhere. Somehow...it needs to be there within this game.

The wiki has been my only way of getting information on a lot of things. 

Single-player games as a series, yes I can see it...totally fine. Play one to understand two. But not MMO's.  

Guild Wars became a single-player game not that long after launch.  Although, you could always use Henchmen, Heroes really made 'grouping' unnecessary. 

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1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Guild Wars became a single-player game not that long after launch.  Although, you could always use Henchmen, Heroes really made 'grouping' unnecessary. 

That's good to know...when I tried it, I couldn't get anywhere alone. It was pretty much insta-death. I read now that there are heroes that can be added as AI party members. I also see there have been some graphical updates. I was already able to hook my old account together with my GW2 account (so I got some of the legacy outfits in the Hall of Monuments)...it might be worth trying again. Only wish we could play as a Norn as that is my preferred race!

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18 minutes ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

That's good to know...when I tried it, I couldn't get anywhere alone. It was pretty much insta-death. I read now that there are heroes that can be added as AI party members. I also see there have been some graphical updates. I was already able to hook my old account together with my GW2 account (so I got some of the legacy outfits in the Hall of Monuments)...it might be worth trying again. Only wish we could play as a Norn as that is my preferred race!

 

GW1 is still worth playing. if you never experienced it.

 

It is designed more like a Diablo type game, with tones of hubs but with static maps and static enemies i.e. they are not randomly generated.  It makes it much more strategic than anything else.

Ands its grinds are just as insane as GW2.  I never did get the obsidian armor.  

 

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9 hours ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

One thing of note...I do believe we got a tiny bit of backstory on the Forged. Not sure if I'd call it backstory, but if I remember right, we do learn that Balthazar had worked with Joko and Joko was the one who created the Forged for him...or at least gave him the means to create the Forged...somehow transferring souls into the machine parts. Then Balthazar betrayed Joko and that's how Joko ended up in the Domain of the Lost. I don't quite know what the point of the Forged are...short of being goons, though. 

Small correction on this part - Balthazar figured out how to make forged, by capturing and studying Exalted living in Kesho. Then he made them using souls from his realm in the mists, and after he ran out of those (or got close to) he got a deal off with Joko to get a new fresh source of souls to bind. Except Balthy was not so keen on the concept of sharing so he then betrayed the deal and locked Joko up to ensure nobody has the knowledge required to cut him off.

Also they are not "souls transfered into machine parts" they are souls bound to armor - think of it like FMA younger brother, but on mass scale, and without sigil that could be scratched away to undo the binding.

As for the point of them - waging a war on an elder dragon, when without eternal alchemy peeker modified to force magic signatures of oposing dragons together, requires an army. And when having to choose betweeen bunch of weakly mortals that can be corrupted away by two independent forces in the region, and magical suits of armor nobody can take away from you I guess the choice should be clear 😉

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In the original GW2 we killed a dragon

In HoT we killed a dragon

In PoF we killed a god 

In the living story post PoF we kill another dragon

In IBS we kill not one but 2 dragons

 

Then we have End of DragonS. On the french GW2 website, Cantha is being refered as "the Dragon Empire" , I havent played GW1 so I cannot comment on that but at this point, GW2 is basically a dragonslaying game with a good narrative. So does EoD refer to the end of Cantha....or does it means the future of GW2, if there is one to begin with, is going to be on the consequences of our past actions and no longer about hunting another dragon ? Why did they picked EoD as a DLC name in a game where so far, the only dragon we know we havent murdered is basically the dragon that has been raised by a Tyrian. Maybe this is where Aurene die ? (pls dont let Aurene die, she's too young).

 

Maybe I'm just overthinking some stuff but the DLC name sounds very bold considering the end result of all the fight we did so far. And just for that I want to bet that the story will be, or rather will have to be as strong if not stronger than before. 

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3 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Cantha is being refered as "the Dragon Empire" , I havent played GW1 so I cannot comment on that

Cantha was refered to as Dragon Empire back in GW1 already, and they did have alot of dragon symbolism similar to Chinese dragons.

3 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

the only dragon we know we havent murdered is basically

Deep See Dragon, nicknamed Steve, Bubbles or Selbbub. Dragon we know exists, we know it awoke (it's awakening made tentacle mosnters emerge in pretty much any bigger waterpool) and we did see some of effects of it's activity (deep see species migration closer to the shores to escape it)

3 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Why did they picked EoD as a DLC name

we can only speculate, but there is a couple of solid theories - the more obvious one is that we will be ending the currect cycle of ED's awakening, destroying civilisations and then going slumber for next couple millenias. Someone pointed an interesting potenital wordplay here where "End" may not mean specifically ending of something, but the goal of that something (i.e. "means to an end", "end justifies the means") which could imply we may be delving deeper on "why Elder Dragons".

 

3 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

or does it means the future of GW2, if there is one to begin with, is going to be on the consequences of our past actions and no longer about hunting another dragon ?

There were always 6 "Elder Dragons" and they were supposed to be that ultimate doom to fight against - so no matter what, if we kept killing them we would run out of them eventually. Meaning that the story would have to move away from killing EDs at some point.

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4 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

In the original GW2 we killed a dragon

In HoT we killed a dragon

In PoF we killed a god 

In the living story post PoF we kill another dragon

In IBS we kill not one but 2 dragons

 

Then we have End of DragonS. On the french GW2 website, Cantha is being refered as "the Dragon Empire" , I havent played GW1 so I cannot comment on that but at this point, GW2 is basically a dragonslaying game with a good narrative. So does EoD refer to the end of Cantha....or does it means the future of GW2, if there is one to begin with, is going to be on the consequences of our past actions and no longer about hunting another dragon ? Why did they picked EoD as a DLC name in a game where so far, the only dragon we know we havent murdered is basically the dragon that has been raised by a Tyrian. Maybe this is where Aurene die ? (pls dont let Aurene die, she's too young).

 

Maybe I'm just overthinking some stuff but the DLC name sounds very bold considering the end result of all the fight we did so far. And just for that I want to bet that the story will be, or rather will have to be as strong if not stronger than before. 

 

 

I think there was a bit of foreshadowing in IBS.

 

Jormag at the end of whispers in the dark said that "There are unimaginable horrors beyond the horizon"

 

Tyria is a big place.  Has nobody asked why all the dragons are basically located in one geographic locatiom?.

 

 

I think Arenanet wants to wrap up the dragons and move on to something bigger.

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2 hours ago, piitb.7635 said:

I think Arenanet wants to wrap up the dragons and move on to something bigger.

Even bigger?

I mean it's not like they are going to ever topple kralkatorrik munching on very fabric of reality... (LWS4)

GW2 could use a return to more relatable stakes.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Even bigger?

I mean it's not like they are going to ever topple kralkatorrik munching on very fabric of reality... (LWS4)

GW2 could use a return to more relatable stakes.

 

 

Its conceivable that the dragons were keeping something in check.   The dragons were part of a grand cycle.  Without the dragons, the other half of the cycle is now left unchecked,

 

But does Anet have the writing talent to pull it off?  I am not sure

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13 hours ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

That's good to know...when I tried it, I couldn't get anywhere alone. It was pretty much insta-death. I read now that there are heroes that can be added as AI party members. I also see there have been some graphical updates. I was already able to hook my old account together with my GW2 account (so I got some of the legacy outfits in the Hall of Monuments)...it might be worth trying again. Only wish we could play as a Norn as that is my preferred race!

I played GW1 between announcement and launch of GW2. At the time it was possible to put together a team broken enough to breeze through the game with little difficulty if you just want to experience the environments, story and lore.

Since they were done developing it at that point, I can’t imagine those builds and team comps aren’t still there. A little googling should unearth them if that’s what your looking for.

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6 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

On the french GW2 website, Cantha is being refered as "the Dragon Empire" , I havent played GW1

As others pointed out this has nothing to do with the Elder Dragons they shoehorned into the lore with GW2.

You can be sure Anet is going to retcon this to be about Elder Dragons tho., like they do with everything in the universe..

Edited by witcher.3197
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22 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I played GW1 between announcement and launch of GW2. At the time it was possible to put together a team broken enough to breeze through the game with little difficulty if you just want to experience the environments, story and lore.

Since they were done developing it at that point, I can’t imagine those builds and team comps aren’t still there. A little googling should unearth them if that’s what your looking for.

 

Yeah, when I played GW1 that was before Eye of the North came out, so the game was still relatively newish and GW2 hadn't even been conceived. 

I remember playing my ranger and having such a hard time. The only class I think I'd want to try playing again is ranger...that's my main class in GW2...I've always loved ranger/pet classes in any game I can play them. 

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On 1/14/2022 at 8:50 AM, Cynova.1236 said:

Look what they did to the Mursaat story, Primordus and Jormag, and so many others. Butchered and rushed.

 

Useless and awful characters like Braham living way... wayyyy past their expiration date and tied to an elder dragon to desperately make them relevant.

 

Does anyone really think the Deep Sea Dragon will be done justice in how it's presented or the story around it executed? Based on what? The GW 2 story has been so twisted, forced around inorganically and inauthentically, mashed-together, and reheated over and over for the past years that the chance of the final dragon story being done well is an absolute pipe-dream. I won't even touch upon how ear-bleeding the dialogue is or how painful it is that you can't skip it.

 

I used to be so excited to experience this part of the story for so long. Now... I only want to be proven wrong. Please let me be wrong.

 

https://i.imgur.com/cSTCRHE.jpg

 

While Braham's survival was curious, former narrative director Tom Abernathy did state in deeg's 3-hour chat (available on YouTube; it's well worth a watch) that the reason Braham survived was to 1) subvert expectations as players and characters in-game didn't expect him to survive after his heroic sacrifice, and 2) to explore a hero's story after he's fulfilled two prophecies and what he'll do now that he's finished his mom's work and has "clear skies ahead of him."

I kinda agree with Tom's reasoning as Braham's survival allows us to explore further norn stories such as power struggles between the known and unknown Spirits of the Wild while the Big Four are weakened and recovering, learning more about the past of Braham's black norn dad Borje the Sun Chaser and if Braham can try to find and connect with his father's tribe (would be cool if those black norn were revealed to be seafarers with ties to the potential human kingdom of Sunrise Crest across the ocean in the west), exploring Garm's backstory and what happened to the rest of the dire wolf pack and why he teamed up with Eir originally (which former narrative designer Angel McCoy wanted to explore back in the day but which we've yet to see happen in game), the impact of the revelation that Asgeir's story was built on a lie and how it affects the family of his once revered descendant Knut Whitebear etc.

What I disagreed with Braham's Champions ending was him surviving without any physical changes, though, given what we know of the persistence of dragon corruption in affected minions. After all, when Glint was cleansed by the Forgotten, she remained in her corrupted crystalline form despite regaining free will and never returned to her original form. I would've preferred one of two options for post-Champions Braham if he had to survive: 1) the Spirit connection allows him to regain his personality after the clash, but he remains in his admittedly hot destroyer form which acts as a physical reminder of his somewhat selfish sacrifice and the thousands of lives he took while under Primordus's influence, or 2) the corruption does leave him due to two dragons' clashing somehow negating corruption altogether, but all his already corrupted body parts fall off so he essentially becomes blind and armless and requires jade tech or whatever to gain new mechanical arms and possibly new magic-infused "eyes" that "see" the world with magic similar to Daredevil series or Y'shtola in FFXIV etc. The story would then explore where his destroyer sense originated from (did it have any ties to his fire-enchanted bow or some other source?), and he'd have a temporary Jon Snow ending from GoT TV series where he exiles himself and wanders to the north to use his enhanced senses to kill the remaining destroyer champions and lead what other lesser destroyers remain away from civilization so they'll eventually fizzle out, thus performing a true heroic sacrifice to save the peoples of the north from remaining dragon minions while atoning for his crime of awakening Primordus and thus causing the deaths of thousands. That ending would not only allow the writers to keep him away from the story for a while in a logical manner but also allow him to return to the story later when enough time has passed.

As for the deep sea dragon, if it dies in EoD, it will have received the least development out of all dragons, including even Primordus who at least had a few core zones and much of the Eye of the North expansion to set him up. DSD is a mystery, and we haven't even met any of its minions yet; even Mordremoth's minions were already teased in Season 1 and were fully revealed by Season 2, to there's been barely any setup for DSD who's been the only dragon to not migrate towards Central Tyria yet (likely because it may have awoken close to the magic-filled krait obelisks in the depths and might've been content feasting on that magic for all we know). As far as the generic Tyrians and Elonians care, DSD has never been a threat to them, and most Tyrians ignore stories about krait, karka, quaggans and arguably largos suffering from DSD's spreading influence.

Given how the EoD logo depicts two dragons and how each main GW2 product has always shown a dragon antagonist in the logo, it suggests that we'll face two dragons in the expansion. Since neither of those dragons looks like Aurene, it's possible that those yin/yang dragons represent DSD who could be two dragons who are one Lyssa-style (if the writers want to draw further parallels between the gods and the dragons). Maybe they can justify one half of DSD being "friendly" and trying to aid humanity while the other half is chaotic and wants destruction, so they'll basically give us a tragic Jormag 2.0 story but with more bathos if we need to kill both the evil and the good half of DSD similar to how Hellboy the Golden Army ended.

It's of course possible that they'll pull a PoF ending and end the story with a catastrophic twist that empowers the DSD further and turns it into a primary antagonist in Season 6 where its story is finally resolved. This would be preferable to me given how little buildup DSD has received so far, but time--and EoD--will tell what path the writers take. The one benefit they have with writing DSD as opposed to most dragons is that DSD has barely any lore attached to it (apart from the underwater hints in quaggan, largos etc. dialogues and blog posts) so they're free to take it in any direction they want.

With that said, given how the writers wasted Cadeyrn, Gaheron, Faolain, Lazarus, removed Malyck from HoT, didn't involve the likes of Gixx and Riel and solely focused on Almorra out of the order leaders among many other narrative hiccups, it would be wise to keep our expectations low for now so we'll be positively surprised by EoD. I worry that they're still following the "blockbuster narrative" approach in storytelling where we'll be in a constant hurry to defeat the villains so there's barely any time for a slower pace and more exploration of characters like FFXIV does between its major story beats. However, what gives me hope is that Connor Fallon mentioned that we'll be traveling between zones in EoD story, so there's a chance we'll have some time to explore some characters and plots in some detail even if not as in depth as I'd like. We shall see. 🙂

On 1/14/2022 at 3:24 PM, Sarius.9285 said:

after the mess that the IBS was, this is actually a pretty legitimate fear....there's always the argument that IBS was rushed because they had to focus on EoD, but until we've shown anything that proves that EoD is better, I wouldn't get too excited either 

I hope that the devs will be able to open up one day and reveal why they had to rush the saga ending instead of either continuing it in a Depths of Destruction expansion (so saga would kinda serve the role of Season 2 setting up HoT, and we'd get a proper Depths of Tyria, Woodland Cascades etc. expansion) or, if they had to enter Cantha no matter what because the suits demanded it, just put the saga on hold for now and give us the DSD detour (similar to how Mordremoth was a detour from the core dragon storyline because its threat became more imminent at the time) before returning to finish the Jormag/Primordus stuff in the Destroyer Epic or whatever it would've been called after Canthan season 6. Imagine if Jormag had remained our "ally" and became our skype buddy while we explored Cantha so it could reveal some juicy lore about the continent, the origins of dragonrise cycle, weaknesses of DSD, and the identities of Mother etc. while trying to recruit us to its side for that inevitable confrontation with Primordus.

On 1/14/2022 at 7:50 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

After how they did the IBS, I have no doubt EoD's story will be very lackluster.

 

It remains to be seen how EoD story turned out although I was rather worried about a narrative dev tweet which mentioned they had to cut out a lot of lines from EoD due to a limited VA/text/dialogue budget. However, the few glimpses we've seen of the cutscenes so far with some impressive mocap, as well as the multitude of characters shown on stream so far, give me hope that they'll give Cantha the time it needs to tell its story with a diverse cast of characters.

Unfortunately, based on what we've seen so far on streams, it seems that the writers might not get to explore the deep sea lore setups from core Tyria as they'll mainly focus on their new diverse Canthan cast on land instead. I'd love them to explore the abandoned krait capital and discover the truth behind the obelisks and the ascended prophets, find out if any royal quaggan markissios heirs still live out there so we could rescue them and unite the quaggan tribes into one kingdom again, explore more of the largos with the return of Sayeh al'Rajihd and perhaps even get to visit the largos capital, find out if the quaggan goddess Mellaggan is dead or in hiding or corrupted by the dragon as a cool world boss etc. If any of these topics are brought up in EoD at all, I worry that they'll just get a side reference in some lore book or become a quick meta event without deeper exploration. But maybe they can explore that stuff more in Season 6 if so... 🙂

On 1/14/2022 at 8:32 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

Honestly, after replaying season 2 and 3, I'm more annoyed with Caithe. Her apologies were terrible. Later, sharing Aurene's champion role with her was a really odd choice.

Hearing some of the writers in the live stream talk about the history and motivations of some of the major NPCs has given me enough confidence that EoD story will be fine. I'm not looking for amazing writing in my MMO. At the moment, I've got Jeff Vandermeer for amazing writing, and GW2 for big, brassy adventure, magicotechnobabble, and occasionally funny dialogue.

In my opinion Caithe apologized way too much in Season 3, so much so that it felt like the writers pandering to Caithe haters when the Commander knows Caithe better than that. Her apologies in HoT and in early S3 were more than enough. Yes, she's done terrible things, but the egg theft was adequately explained as her Wyld Hunt and Mordremoth both manipulating her so she had no idea who to trust at that point.
As for why Caithe earned the right to become Aurene's first "corrupted" champion, there are a few reasons for it. The devs needed someone to speak for Aurene, and they couldn't just let the Commander become crystallized due to fashion wars. Besides, while the Commander was a deadbeat dad who barely spent time with Aurene (we briefly witnessed her hatching, then did some exercises with her for a couple of hours at most, only to abandon her for nearly a year) and instead explored the world and fought baddies, it was Caithe who was the "stay at home" mom who tended to Aurene for about a year in Tarir. So Aurene's "I love you" to Caithe makes total sense to me, and it retroactively makes Aurene's hasty flight to Elona in mere hours to save the Commander a headscratching moment considering that the Commander had barely spent any time to bond with her to begin with. So I can understand why devs referred to both Caithe and the Commander as Aurene's parents, and it's unfortunate that Caithe couldn't accompany us to the final battle against Kralkatorrik when she really should've been there to support Aurene. If only Aurene could carry more than one rider back then...

On 1/14/2022 at 10:07 PM, DarcShriek.5829 said:

I suspect you'll be disappointed.  I'm betting Taimi is saved through either amber or jade tech.

Taimi's fate is going to be interesting to witness. GW2 has lately avoided killing any of the main cast FFXIV style, and I'd be surprised if they change the formula this late in the narrative unless they just instantly reverse it with magic as happened with Aurene, and how Tom Abernathy even wanted to bring Blish back until he was vetoed by the rest of the narrative team.
However, Taimi acts as a representative to the disabled players of GW2, and many of them have threatened to quit GW2 if anything happened to her (or Aurene). So this puts the writers in a difficult position: if they miraculously heal Taimi via tech or magic, they'll undermine the IRL struggles of their disabled players who have identified with her struggle. If they let her die as would be a natural progression, they provoke said players' ire for killing off disabled person representation in game (and because many people appear to love Taimi and don't want her to die). Given that the illness has been referenced in recent dialogue, it seems we'll see some resolution to this subplot, but I'm curious how the writers are going to handle it based on the aforementioned problem points. With that said, I hope they'll consider killing off characters when the plot requires it, whether it's a fan favorite character or not, and that they don't just kill characters because it's cool. Wars have casualties, and even in fantasy stories and fairytales you see that not everyone makes it to the end (hence why the scenes with Boromir, Theoden etc. are so powerful in LotR as they show the conflict has real stakes...although it also undermines the conflict by bringing Gandalf back at the same time, but still).

On 1/15/2022 at 3:05 AM, DragonMoon.6098 said:

Guess I'm in the minority. I actually liked Season 4 and IBS and I like Braham's character. He was annoying the first time through, back when there was nothing past Season 3, but the more times I play through the content, the more his character growth and progression makes sense, especially the growth we see out of him in Season 4. So he was kind of a *haha, we're going to replace the word with kitten?* during S3E3...what angsty young adult with parental issues isn't? And his anger at his mother (for dying) is pretty obviously transferred onto the PC (he's not really angry at the PC). Also makes sense. But I guess a lot of people can't look past that. I enjoyed IBS so much that I was at the edge of my seat with each release, wondering what would happen to Braham. I honestly didn't think he'd make it out alive, like with Trahearne, but I'm glad he made it. 

 

Anyways...just wanted to throw it out there that there are those out there who don't dislike the story and don't dislike his character. Is it all executed flawlessly? Hell no, but what MMO storyline is? Things get rushed, and because there are multiple writers, things can feel disjointed. But the overall point comes across and I can follow it. 

 

I hope that EoD can give us an equally engaging storyline. I'm actually moderately disappointed that it looks like Braham is done. He's been hung up on the coat rack because so many people hate him (for whatever reason I'll never understand as already stated). Jory and Kass, I honestly couldn't give two flying poops about...I don't not like them...I just don't care enough about their characters to have an opinion on them. But I think that's who we're going to have for EoD. I can only hope that the lack of Braham is made up for with more Taimi and Gorrik! Maybe we'll see some more growth out of Logan...I love that he's finally shed the shackle that was Jenna...I wanted to see him get out in front of that and become his own person.

I like Braham, but I don't like how inconsistent his writing has been. I've written at length about it, but in summary his progression from HoT to S3 doesn't make sense, nor does his progression from S4 to the saga unless they retcon it all being part of Jormag's grand master plan manipulation (while they still haven't explained why Jormag spared Braham despite being aware of him being the Norn of Prophecy). He left Garm to die in the jungle and didn't bother to attend Eir's vigil, both of which are very un-norn things to do. He never apologized to Rox for nearly getting her killed in the ice cave and didn't understand her desire to stay with the Olmakhan as he still pines for her as revealed via the conversation with Ryland. He also goes against his word to the Commander from Season 4 when he acted behind the Commander's back to awaken Primordus in Champions and thus led to countless deaths, which will apparently haunt him for the rest of his days based on his Dragon Bash dialogue.

I can understand that all this inconsistency stemmed from the devs being forced to divide our group of friends for Season 3 to justify PoF premise and how Champions was forcibly rushed, but in so doing they ignored Braham's arc in HoT (where he stated he loved Commander as a friend and felt he had avenged Eir) and also his Season 4 progression to basically revert Braham back to his Season 1 persona by Champions ending, curiously enough. I do think the hate for Braham is overblown, but I think that dislike along with other dislikes (Taimi, Trahearne, Scarlet) is just a symptom of them being scapegoats for the real issue which is inconsistent writing. I'm sure we'll see Braham again as there are still bunch of stories left to tell about him (we don't really know much about his black dad's background and what the dad's tribe is doing, so that could be a worthy avenue to pursue etc.).

I enjoy Kas and Jory but I also feel they've been victims of limited storytelling budget and changing writers. There was that cool setup with Belinda's spirit being in Jory's blade which we may witness more of in spirit-influenced Cantha, and Jory's family is very abusive and anti-noble which might present its own problems with her relationship with Kas who's been reinstated as a noble. I hope we get to meet the rest of Jory's family one day as Season 1 painted them as intriguing people.
Likewise, we haven't delved deep enough into the story of Kas's gambling brother Kyle and what he's up to; his story could've been resolved in the White Mantle arc, but alas. Writers also mentioned that we'd one day see Jory solve the murder of Mendel which involved the necromancer Kraig the Bleak, a corrupt minister performing human sacrifices in DR, and E who first alerted Jory to the conspiracy, but we've yet to see this story resolved. Maybe we'll get a chance to see more of it, and E, in the future, perhaps tying that sacrificial cult not to White Mantle but the Cult of Verata for all we know.
The unfortunate thing with Kas and Jory relationship is that we've mostly seen them having some relationship crisis but we don't know where it originated in as it was merely teased in HoT and may have had its beginnings with Belinda's death traumatizing Jory. I imagine we'll finally get some answers to this mystery in EoD and see their relationship resolved either via a proper breakup or reconciliation as even the Icebrood Saga suggested that, despite their year-long honeymoon in Elona, they still haven't resolved some issues.
As for Jennah being Logan's "shackle", this is basically the result of newer writers retconning old lore. Even now, based on my twitter conversations with devs, some members of the narrative team are in two camps regarding the Logan/Jennah ship. In personal story's "The Queen's Justice" mission Jennah admitted loving Logan but couldn't act on it because her political enemies would use a relationship with a commoner against her, because she wanted her partner to be her equal and not her lesser, and because she felt guilty over being partly responsible for calling Logan away which cost the lives of Glint and Snaff and broke up Destiny's Edge. It was because of this reason she originally sent Logan away to battle dragons and fix things with Destiny's Edge so he'd become the man he was meant to be. But Season 3 suddenly retconned this into it being a one-sided relationship all along, which doesn't make any sense lorewise. Perhaps the writers can salvage things and reveal it's yet another ploy from Jennah to ensure that Logan becomes the Pact Marshal and makes a name for himself as a self-made man, but it's going to be tricky to explain the discrepancy either way as Jennah never confided her feelings to the Commander in Season 3 as opposed to her heartfelt confession in personal story.

On 1/15/2022 at 11:47 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

You know, often hype just sets people up for disappointment. Sometimes I hyped things gain traction after people discover them. The one constant is that everybody, even experts are pretty terrible at predicting the future.

Things’ll get clearer in a month or so.

Sometimes hype can be justified, though, if lore has adequately set it up with an expectation that it's going to lead somewhere. People were right to be hyped about the Scepter of Orr, Livia, and Lazarus after EotN ending cinematic set it up to be a major plot point: Lazarus had sworn to have his revenge on Tyria, and Livia getting hold of the scepter was shown to be equal in importance to Primordus waking up, Pyre leading the charr rebellion, and Pale Tree growing up in the cinematic, setting things up for GW2. Similarly, personal story set up Malyck's return with an army from his Grove to fight the dragons while he wandered east into the jungle, but he was cut out from HoT in rewrites, thus leaving that plot point in limbo for the time being. So in these cases it's understandable why people would be disappointed since earlier buildup didn't lead to satisfactory enough conclusions (we've yet to learn of the fate of the scepter or Malyck, but perhaps both of them will be resolved in a future living world season).

On 1/16/2022 at 5:16 AM, AgentMoore.9453 said:

If you remember back to a certain stage performance where it was proudly (and repeatedly) announced that IBS was going to be expansion-level, mind-blowing, best thing since sliced bread, etc. and then look at how IBS ended, you might then understand why, when they began to say things like 'we cut IBS so EoD can be amazing!!! All hands are on deck! All resources have been diverted to make EoD the best expansion we've ever made!' some of us sat there thinking 'Right, but last time you promised something earth-shattering, it wasn't really.'

To be fair, people misremember what was actually said during the announcement. It was the host Greg Miller who kept pestering the devs on stage about the saga being equal to an expansion instead of just a beefed up living world season, and the devs had to roll with it while looking extremely uncomfortable as they couldn't just refute what Greg mistakenly said without causing issues and making the audience confused. In internal dev documents that I've seen, the saga was called Living World Season 5 for quite some time but was then branded as the Icebrood Saga, likely for marketing reasons to differentiate it from other seasons as it had unique content like Visions of the Past included in it.

However, it's possible that Season 5 initially was meant to be a proper saga all along, being way longer than a typical 6-episode season given that there are clues of them planning to release elite specs during the saga (based on the datamined hero challenge icons found by that_shaman and how devs referred to willbender as Almorra's spec even though their current lore states that that elite is Canthan only so Almorra couldn't have ever learned it) and them mentioning masteries for all the Four Great Spirits when we only got masteries for Raven and a few of the Lesser Spirits. It's likely that around the announcement, or sometime after it following Mike Z's quiet departure, the saga was retooled as Season 5 while most of the team was shifted to working on EoD due to NCSoft dictates, hence them suddenly being "gifted" with an opportunity to work on an expansion after the saga announcement didn't receive as warm a welcome as the suits had hoped.

Hopefully, as years or decades go by, we'll eventually get some devs or ex-devs to open up about what was going on behind the scenes during that time and why so many devs suddenly left the studio quietly following Mike Z's departure when the studio was moving people from saga to work on the expansion. It's certainly a story worthy of intrigue.

On 1/16/2022 at 4:34 PM, NotTooFoolish.7412 said:

They reference another dragon - Bubbles, someone else interested in dragons - inquest, aetherblade, or even Joon.
All of that, we already expect. We might get surprised with a vessel for dragon magic, but that might be simply jade...

We've had a bit of a chat with Tengu during DRMs, I don't think we'll see the Dominion though.

I'm curious how will they bridge the gap in the current story and EoD. It's gonna be funny if it's just: Mai Trin pops up, says she's been tracking the same thing as Taimi, asks for help, off to Cantha we go.

Based on dialogue with Crecia in Champions, the Dominion has been defeated following Bangar's capture. They, like the White Mantle, are done for, and so are Renegades. If we're ever going to see a Dominion equivalent among charr ever again, it'd be the followers of the human-hating but well-respected Iron tribune Fume Brighteye who didn't show up in the saga and should thus still be alive to act as Mia Kindleshot's political opponent in Iron unless devs just retcon her out of existence. Devs did leave story open for future hostilities even after this civil war since some of the United Legions charr openly threaten their human allies in Drizzlewood and state that they're only allies for the time being. So once the threat posed by the dragons, Adelbern's empowered Foefire ghosts, and Separatists have been dealt with, it's possible that Fume sees the time fit to have another campaign against humans if the writers deem it so. She'd certainly have a lot of support from surviving legion allies based on Drizzlewood ambient dialogue. Hopefully we get to explore Adelbern and the Separatists in a future Living World season after Cantha's Season 6 since the Foefire ghosts should be beefed up from all the released dragon and god magic they've absorbed over the years. 🙂

23 hours ago, piitb.7635 said:

I personally believe ANet's storytelling has improved over the years   Replay the vanilla GW2 story and and compare to the newer stuff, and anyone will realize there is a big improvement because base GW2 story was awful.

 

That being said, the story telling still has glaring weaknesses.  It feels like they miss telling crucial information or they just assume you know this faction does this, this faction does that.  For example, the Forged, they are never mentioned prior to PoF, then you set sail to Elona and magically you know everything about them and who they are.

 

Also villains are just kind of shoe horned in.  and you fight them almost abruptly as they appear and its just awkward storytelling.  It's like there is little to no character development and then *boom* a boss battle we should care about.

  Personal story isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. Concept-wise it has lots of great story beats about introducing the orders, exploring the various good and bad factions throughout Tyria and the resulting politics, and showing the horror of the dragons and their minions. It's just that the writing is uneven due to late story rewrites and because some devs spent more time on instances than others (compare e.g. that straightforward and quick "rescue allies from a volcano" mission to the alternate story path in same narrative where we instead go on a lengthy journey to discover black market deals in the Pact and corruption in higher-ranked officers).
I do hope that the writers will explore more nuanced villains than just pure black hat moustache-twirling baddies who want to rule or destroy the world in the future. Bangar, Jormag, Ryland, and Gavin from the White Stag storyline were a step in the right direction, and it seems that EoD's Chul-Moo, Tetra, Minister Li, and possibly Joon may also prove to be complex characters if written well enough. Just like I hope heroes get their share of ruthless antiheroes without revealing them as hidden villains (like how original S4 plans involved revealing Phlunt as some hidden Inquest mastermind to justify us killing him, but thankfully they removed that story beat and kept Phlunt as our lovable hero jerk). Smodur could've been a great antihero if written with as much nuance in saga as he had been written in personal story and Season 2, but alas. I'll keep my fingers crossed for improved characterization in the future. 🙂

16 hours ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

That right there is the problem. Folks can't be expected to play a completely different game to get an understanding. Not when it comes to an MMO. GW1 is ancient...and unplayable to many due to the mechanics and the graphics.


There should be a way to get the important info you need for story content...within this game. Whether it's through dialogue, or recap cutaways, or books you find somewhere. Somehow...it needs to be there within this game.

The wiki has been my only way of getting information on a lot of things.

  I definitely agree that folks shouldn't be required to play the earlier game or browse wiki to understand key concepts of a storyline. That was a huge sin in Season 3 where devs assumed that every player had the knowledge of us forum lorehounds when it came to Kryta's history and that folks should immediately know who White Mantle, Shining Blade, mursaat, Eye of Janthir, Livia etc. were.

What I disagree with, however, is calling GW1 ancient as a game; it may be dated in some aspects, but hardly old in the way scholars categorize games. I hope you used that term as hyperbole because objectively GW1 is a rather modern game, released in the 2000s, even if it may not be as sleek as later generation games. Even games from early 90s and late 80s like Sonic, Super Mario, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy IV, Golden Axe, Turrican, Bard's Tale, King's Quest etc. wouldn't be called ancient by today's standards. For real "ancient" games you'd have to go to the early 80s or even 70s era games by definition.
It always makes me sad to see that graphics mean so much to certain players; then again, this has always been the case as far as I can remember to the game reviews of the late 80s and 90s where people had big arguments about which game's graphics were superior and how no one should play the old games with "worse" graphics. Sprite graphics still look very fresh today, and even some early 3D or vector graphics like Super Mario 64 or Star Fox have a lovely art style that has withstood the test of time.
What GW1 and GW2 (whose graphics are also showing their age, to be fair) did well was have a specific art style that made their graphics look timeless. Sure, you see janky artifacts, lack of detail etc. here and there, but they're both still remarkably beautiful for their age, and it's all thanks to art direction at the time. It remains to be seen if current art directors at the studio can keep up the same standard as their predecessors, but I imagine they'll at least do a decent job based on what we've seen of EoD zones so far even though I'm not a fan of the oversaturation in zones from HoT onward or the jade's color in EoD zones.

7 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Then we have End of DragonS. On the french GW2 website, Cantha is being refered as "the Dragon Empire" , I havent played GW1 so I cannot comment on that but at this point, GW2 is basically a dragonslaying game with a good narrative. So does EoD refer to the end of Cantha....or does it means the future of GW2, if there is one to begin with, is going to be on the consequences of our past actions and no longer about hunting another dragon ? Why did they picked EoD as a DLC name in a game where so far, the only dragon we know we havent murdered is basically the dragon that has been raised by a Tyrian. Maybe this is where Aurene die ? (pls dont let Aurene die, she's too young).

 

Maybe I'm just overthinking some stuff but the DLC name sounds very bold considering the end result of all the fight we did so far. And just for that I want to bet that the story will be, or rather will have to be as strong if not stronger than before. 

I noticed that devs had bookmarked my post on these forums back in the day before they changed some aspects of these forums when players discussed a potential title for the then-unnamed third expansion set in Cantha. I proposed the potential names of Age of the Dragon and End of Dragons, and I was happy to notice that End of Dragons became the official name of the expansion in a later reveal. Whether devs had been inspired by my post (as they had bookmarked it for whatever reason although at the time I thought they just simply liked my explanations for titles with multiple meanings) or it was just an accidental similarity, it was still a fun discovery.

My argument in that post was that Dragon in my proposed titles would have multiple meanings all based on existing lore and how the age of the dragons could end in many ways:

1) Dragon would mean the deep sea dragon , of course, but also potentially the numerous saltsprays existing in Cantha and what their fate may be. A literal end of the last old school Elder Dragon.

2) Dragon would mean the reigning imperial family who took the Celestial Dragon (whom the imperials revered) as the empire's namesake, and we might see the end of the imperial dynasty (at the time I thought that we might overthrow the government if the Ministry of Purity was still in power and influencing the emperor, but this later turned out to not be the case). Given how the devs have now teased some tension between the half-sisters Empress Ihn and Joon, I could see that Ihn might not make it to the end of EoD, and if she dies childless, that leads to the collapse of the oldest known continuous dynasty in Tyria's history.
3) Dragon would refer to the astrological Age of the Dragon in Canthan calendar which was ongoing since the Jade Wind lorewise. Depending on if that age still continues in the present day, it'd make sense to end that era and usher us to a new age in the calendar upon DSD's passing and Cantha finally embracing the outside world regardless of if the empress is alive by the end of EoD or not.

4) Dragon would refer to the end of the old order centering on dragons and the rise of potentially non-draconic "entities" referred to in Sadizi's speech in Kesho in "The Way Forward". S we move from an era of dragon balancers to possibly more humanoid balancers depending on how the crew will figure out how to balance the burden of magic in non-dragons without driving them insane or killing them. Sadly Taimi's later dialogue in post-Champions suggests that only Glint's offspring would ever inherit this role, which conflicts with Apostate and Sadizi's statements, especially since no known offspring of Glint survive besides Aurene unless we find the third scion of Glint safely tucked away in Cantha or unless Aurene lays eggs that contain the future balancers and thus becomes the new Mother.

But yeah, as we can see End of Dragons have plenty of potential meanings which fits with the earlier titles (Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire) also having multiple meanings. Whether DSD dies at the end of EoD or its story continues to Season 6 Kralk-style remains to be seen, but I'm curious of finding out more once the expansion releases. 🙂

4) Dragon

7 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

As others pointed out this has nothing to do with the Elder Dragons they shoehorned into the lore with GW2.

You can be sure Anet is going to retcon this to be about Elder Dragons tho., like they do with everything in the universe..

As proven with Mordremoth and Jormag (via Scarlet and Bangar/Svanir), dragons can influence mortals even when asleep. While the lore surrounding the Empire of the Dragon was originally more tied to the Celestial Dragon (who may or may not be the same entity as the cardinal celestial Tahmu and who seemingly had no ties to the Elder Dragons but to humans instead), they could reveal that the emperors were always being influenced by the deep sea dragon without realizing it and what they thought was the Celestial Dragon was always DSD depending on what the second domain of DSD ends up being. This would make sense on some level, especially if the human legend of Cantha being the home to all dragonkind turns out to be true as it'd mean that even all the Elder Dragons originated from Cantha in prehistoric times billions of years ago. Whether the writers will go with this explanation remains to be seen, but it is a distinct possibility. 🙂

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I always felt that while the Commander is Aurene's Champion (Ryland), Caithe is her Voice (Bangar).

As far as the story goes, it's mixed. Heart of Thorns dropped the ball on a lot of story threads (Malyck, Nightmare Court, Faolain/Eir, Traeherne, etc) and Path of Fire really was just a setup for the entirety of LW S4.

HoT seemed to need a lot of head cannon to make sense of the story + map metas for it to really show just how expansive the Commander's story was.

PoF was more story focused (almost wholly independent from metas) and it kind of showed the issue in ANet's story-telling.

They went back to the HoT formula in S4 where you needed the meta + map + story to really get the entire idea of what was going on and that really does help pull the player into the game. The only issue is it assumes a lot more agency on the part of the player for the story to have an impact vs. what they can write up.

Icebrood Saga wasn't perfect, they definitely set it up for some incredibly great storytelling with Bjora Marches and that was entirely abandoned with Drizzlewood Coast. And while Champions gets a lot of a flack being essentially "rocks fall, everyone dies", it did make sense with 2 active Elder Dragons rampaging throughout Tyria.

The final showdown was "fine" but didn't have the same impact as the end of Season 4.

It did, however, actually make the Commander seem like the Commander, in that you were leading an army of diverse races and fighting alongside them. And if some died in the fight, reinforcements would come to replace them. Facing Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik all felt like it was "a bunch of heroes/murder hobos getting together to fight" rather than the whole "united armies of Tyria standing together". If nothing else you actually felt like the Commander of the Pact having an army of NPC's fighting under you, which went a long way to giving that "epic story" feel.

End of Dragons has the potential to fall flat but also there's a lot of things in the toolbox that could give that feeling of being a Dragon Champion rather than just a hero-among-many.

And Cantha is exploring Tyria growing up. Magic was always the crutch it leaned on that kept it stagnant and industrialization is the world moving forward

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My irritation with Caithe’s apologies wasn’t a matter of quantity, but quality. Her apologies came across as those defensive kind that aren’t really apologies at all. Like the commander should just get over it already.

“I had an elder dragon in my head” is hard to swallow given that the commander adventured alongside Canach as he resisted the same, Trahearne was able to resist while physically plugged in to Mord, and as a player of a Sylvari commander, so did I.

Which doesn’t mean no forgiveness for Caithe, but her apologies came across to me as filled with irritation that she even had to apologize. 
 

Add that to her atrocious behavior during her season two memories, and I find it hard to feel any warmth toward her. 
 

Looking back, I wish they had just made her the sole champion of Aurene, and left the commander out of that. Let her accepting the transformation into crystal-Sylvari be her redemption story.  
 

That would have taken out some significant things we did along the way, but IMO would have made for cleaner, more impactful story. Might have also gotten rid of the feeling some have shared that Aurene is being forced on the players.

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52 minutes ago, Kossage.9072 said:

As for Jennah being Logan's "shackle", this is basically the result of newer writers retconning old lore. Even now, based on my twitter conversations with devs, some members of the narrative team are in two camps regarding the Logan/Jennah ship. In personal story's "The Queen's Justice" mission Jennah admitted loving Logan but couldn't act on it because her political enemies would use a relationship with a commoner against her, because she wanted her partner to be her equal and not her lesser, and because she felt guilty over being partly responsible for calling Logan away which cost the lives of Glint and Snaff and broke up Destiny's Edge. It was because of this reason she originally sent Logan away to battle dragons and fix things with Destiny's Edge so he'd become the man he was meant to be. But Season 3 suddenly retconned this into it being a one-sided relationship all along, which doesn't make any sense lorewise. Perhaps the writers can salvage things and reveal it's yet another ploy from Jennah to ensure that Logan becomes the Pact Marshal and makes a name for himself as a self-made man, but it's going to be tricky to explain the discrepancy either way as Jennah never confided her feelings to the Commander in Season 3 as opposed to her heartfelt confession in personal story.

 

 

Just quoting this part as your post is...very long, lol. 

As I mentioned, a lot of the story is disjointed (overall, such as your mention of Braham's personality changes). I think most of it has to do with a combination of being rushed and too many cooks in the kitchen (too many writers). Just like with some television series that have a different writer for each episode...they can definitely end up giving viewers a figurative case of whip lash. But...I still get the overarching concept. With gaming, even single player games, I've had to learn to not set my expectations very high when it comes to well-written story. I can't think of a single game that has a perfect, or even near-perfect story.

As for Logan and Jenna...I personally never liked Jenna. I don't know why...I just didn't. Maybe it's because I (personally) felt like he was just living his life entirely for someone else and forgot to become his own person in the process. Maybe I just like Logan just for his voice actor (Troy Baker), I dunno, lol. But I kind of always assumed they (the devs) broke up that ship to leave Logan open for player ships. Just like I think they're wavering on Kass and Jory because I'm sure a lot of players would love to have room for their own personal ships with those two characters. I get it...a lot of players don't ship, and some even find it stupid and silly that others do, but then there's the whole other playerbase that does ship. (I do...I personally ship Braham in his current mid-twenties state with my main character and Commander...a Norn only a couple years older than he is.) So I kind of really thought that might of been part of the intention with breaking up Logan and Jenna.

And by me saying "ancient" in regards to GW1...yes, it was hyperbole. I would have hoped that was obvious, lol. 2006 in the realm of video games is too old for a lot of people to have patience to play. Controls were clunky. Optimization was even clunkier. Some older games from around that same time won't even run on Win 10. And yeah, graphics are valid for me. Sorry. I don't game on a 3090 for nuthin', lol. (Honestly, I do 3D artwork so that's why I have such an overkill card, but I do put graphics into my consideration on whether or not I can stomach playing a specific game.) And don't get me wrong, I can play games that are older. I do play 'The Lord of the Rings Online', which is from 2007. But that game has received graphical updates and now runs on a 64bit client. GW1 (for me) felt even clunkier. However, I see that there have been graphical updates as well as optimization tweaks from 2018 that helped improve GW1 for folks who want to try it now. I'm going to try it...I just hope I can get past the clunky UI and controls. 

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5 hours ago, piitb.7635 said:

I think there was a bit of foreshadowing in IBS.

Jormag at the end of whispers in the dark said that "There are unimaginable horrors beyond the horizon"

Tyria is a big place.  Has nobody asked why all the dragons are basically located in one geographic locatiom?.

I think Arenanet wants to wrap up the dragons and move on to something bigger.

Jormag was talking about Primordus' awakening.

And the Elder Dragons aren't all in one geographic location. They are spread out over a fairly large part of the world. Between Tyria, Elona, and Cantha, we are looking at something like 1/3 of the world's habitable landmass.

Even still, them being in such an area make sense as the Elder Dragons compete against each other to consume the world's magic. Invariably there would be one spot on the world where the last bit of magic is, as they would converge there to try to get it. We know the Seers created the Bloodstones to contain some of the world's magic, so it makes sense the dragons would converge on that area as a result.

 

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2 hours ago, Kossage.9072 said:

As proven with Mordremoth and Jormag (via Scarlet and Bangar/Svanir), dragons can influence mortals even when asleep. While the lore surrounding the Empire of the Dragon was originally more tied to the Celestial Dragon (who may or may not be the same entity as the cardinal celestial Tahmu and who seemingly had no ties to the Elder Dragons but to humans instead), they could reveal that the emperors were always being influenced by the deep sea dragon without realizing it and what they thought was the Celestial Dragon was always DSD depending on what the second domain of DSD ends up being. This would make sense on some level, especially if the human legend of Cantha being the home to all dragonkind turns out to be true as it'd mean that even all the Elder Dragons originated from Cantha in prehistoric times billions of years ago. Whether the writers will go with this explanation remains to be seen, but it is a distinct possibility. 🙂

Yes, that's called a retcon. And the moment they retcon anything to be about the EDs I instantly lose interest. This would be the final nail in the coffin of Cantha for me.

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3 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

Yes, that's called a retcon. And the moment they retcon anything to be about the EDs I instantly lose interest. This would be the final nail in the coffin of Cantha for me.

That wouldn't be a retcon.

A retcon is a change in already established lore. A recton would be something like if Balthazar was depicted as a guy, and spoken about as a he, and then when Balth shows up they make him a woman, and then just act like he was always a woman, and as if everyone, and everything, always spoke/depicted him as a woman, when it clearly didn't.

The Deep Sea Dragon possibly influencing Cantha over the ages wouldn't be a retcon since nothing ever said otherwise, nor does that being true actually change anything about the already established lore of Cantha. That's just a reveal, not a retcon.

That being said I wouldn't want that to be true, just pointing out that isn't a retcon.

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