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Current state of fractal balance


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1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Noone linked me anything, you need to wake up.

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20220109-015927_drkai_kill 

from

On 1/15/2022 at 4:43 PM, Coldi.9745 said:

.

 

Wingman is down atm. Top dps was scourge with 41k on the Dark phase (so much for all those people who were laughing at 40k+ statement in the other thread, typical mediocre players who have like 80% understanding from watching others but lack the final 20%, yet assume they know everything).

 

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All I see on youtube 37.4k on golem, unless you have some superb rota, that is not on snowcrows, HS, metabattle, please do share. And don't bother with someone in fractal with fractal god + pots + epi, that's not indicative of capability in PvE as a whole.

Good players are connected and make the benchmarks and exchange what it is possible as to have others have a try at the builds. If you are relying on youtube, you are already far from top tier.

 

What do people always say: don't just copy/paste, actually try to understand the build?

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https://snowcrows.com/builds/revenant/renegade/condition-renegade It's missing DPS from skill IN THE ROTATION? Are you high yourself? Or do we calc war benchmark while assuming banner buffs on whole squad? Or do we only do it, when it is convenient for your point? Maybe we should calc some dps for hfb as well, because it allows players skip some dodges due to healing? 

🤦‍♂️

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Razorclaw's_Rage

Summon Centurion Jas Razorclaw from the Mists to enhance the attacks of your allies.

 

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Anyone who thinks Scourge is on the level of guardian in OPness is severely delusional.

 

Nah, most here who argue against such pigeon holded gameplay are full aware that FB and renegade are op. That does not excuse the condition scourge is in.

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Inspired by a reddit post about class popularity in raids i wanted to compare it to fractals and the results are very sad to say the least. Here the distribution: https://imgur.com/a/cZWySoU

100% agreed. Grabbing popcorn to see how many players will come in and tell everyone how balanced guardian, necromancer and revenant are. In revenants defense: it's the safest alacrity source ava

This is straight up lie. Another lie. Condi for speedrunning is faster on Ai and on Ensolyss   Weaver is still very much alive in raids and strikes It always was, literally n

51 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Razorclaw's_Rage

Summon Centurion Jas Razorclaw from the Mists to enhance the attacks of your allies.

Noooooooooooooooo, I compared it to banners without knowit it 😮 No way! It's like banner do same thing, that is SHARE A BUFF. At this point you have no idea what is going on, in your head scourge is bad, because it is scourge, not because of dmg, or anything else 😄 just admit your hate kitten and we can move on to whatever new meta kicks scourge out of meta when EoD launches so you can start yet another thread, how meta is not your fav char, so everything needs nerfs, that kills classes 😄

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9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Nah, most here who argue against such pigeon holded gameplay are full aware that FB and renegade are op. That does not excuse the condition scourge is in.

I'm... not entirely sure I can fully agree with the ordering, but in principle...
Putting together a team is like playing tetris. Classes are shapes, defined by number of blocks and their form.

Look at it from two perspectives:
1. What does a build/spec bring to the team? Does it bring too much?
2. What other build/spec does this build/spec "suppress"? How many?

Look at just quickness firebrand.
Perspective 1: Dude brings a comfortable 30k+ DPS, which is top tier DPS right off the bat. Then, you add on-demand aegis, stability, reflect, CC, and a choice of +30% DPS, or full uptime of teamwide quickness. This kit alone entirely obviates entire fractals. "Don't look at the asura to avoid f- Oh, nm, stab." "Dodge this map-wide 20k damage attac- oh, nm, aegis." "This boss has short phases, so maybe power is better sui- oh, nm, burn stacks." Clearly, firebrand is made up of six blocks, while most other tetris shapes are made up of four.
Perspective 2: As a pure DPS, condi firebrand muscles out all other DPS classes. No condi can reach this burst (other than confusion on, like, one boss, maybe, but as a gamble). At 40k DPS, the condi DPS firebrand is tied with a few other DPS classes, while bringing with it tons of utility for free, utility that other classes either do not have access to, or need to make serious concessions to take. Things do not get any better if you compare it to just the quickness alternatives: what does a chrono or a scrapper bring as a quickness provider that can rival the qfb's loadout? The size and shape of both those classes are *entirely* enveloped by the quickbrand.

Compare and contrast alacren.
Perspective 1: Dude brings somewhat nice 20-25k damage, depending on hitbox size. Also has very nice CC, of both the immediate and slow variety, as well as team ferocity, semi-regular protection, and minor heals. Has access to stability, even, isn't that grand!? The damage and alacrity alone are okayish, but the team support options make the spec stand out, so, five blocks. The blocks aren't going on in all directions, like a firebrand's do, but they're there, and they're above averagel.
Perspective 2: The alacren's damage doesn't compare favorably to a mesmer's alacrity in 5-man content, by about 30% at least. Said mesmer is also supplying max stacks full uptime of might, slightly lower on-demand CC, and a difficult-to-ignore boost to mobility. Clearly, the revenant provides the more comprehensive kit, but it's size and shape does not swallow the poor mesmer entirely. Special consideration for CMs goes here, because somehow the playerbase has all agreed that the alacren will be the slave to all the mechanics and special roles and duties, so yay. 

These two classes do not provide the same mount of "too much", and they do not have the same suppression effect. 
The condition damage Scourge, on the other hand, is a beautiful example of a class that technically provides *a whole lot*, while not stepping on anyone's toes.
Perspective 1: Scourge does what is the kitten near average for a condi DPS, the 35-37k range, while being sturdy and having access to a nice amount of CC. Also allows a team to be a tiny bit more sturdy through shared barriers and signet rez. Epidemic, while nice, does not obviate encounters, just makes things go somewhat in some encounters. In absolute "boxes" number, probably much like the alacren; five comfy blocks.
Perspective 2: Any number of DPS classes can outdo scourge's numbers, condi or otherwise. The CC a Scourge brings to the table is nice, true, but isn't impossible to match, while retaining the damage advantage. The number one suppression effect here? Player comfort. It steps on nobody else's toes, and won't kick out another spec in the same role slot, but will likely outcompete other specs in the eyes of a player looking for a smooth ride. And you know what? Good. Nice. It is absolutely pleasant and good for the game that there exists a spec like that. And even in this it is not unique, sharing the "comfy, safe damage option" with a condi soulbeast, as well as the previously mentioned condi firebrand.

In an ideal scenario, alacrens and condi scourges would suffer no (significant) nerfs; their "popularity advantage" would be better addressed by improving other options through buffs and QOL changes. In contrast, the condi, quickness, and heal firebrands are absolutely ripe for a thwack with a nerf bat. 

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30 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Noooooooooooooooo, I compared it to banners without knowit it 😮 No way! It's like banner do same thing, that is SHARE A BUFF.

So, you don't actually understand the difference in where and how damage is attributed to? Not a biggy, a tad confusing given you have been throwing around benchmark numbers, obviously not actually understanding them, but I guess now we can move on.

 

Make sure to tell when you are having a hard time to understand what people are talking about. In case you are unclear on how to read a certain graph or reproduce a certain benchmark.

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At this point you have no idea what is going on, in your head scourge is bad, because it is scourge, not because of dmg, or anything else 😄

 

 

Can't check atm if wingman is up again, have you had the chance to review coldis log by now? You might be able to mirror his statics run in case you are having a hard time hitting that 40k+ Dark phase scourge performance.

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Just admit your hate kitten and we can move on to whatever new meta kicks scourge out of meta when EoD launches so you can start yet another thread, how meta is not your fav char, so everything needs nerfs, that kills classes 😄

 

I didn't start this thread.... 

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30 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I'm... not entirely sure I can fully agree with the ordering, but in principle...
Putting together a team is like playing tetris. Classes are shapes, defined by number of blocks and their form.

Look at it from two perspectives:
1. What does a build/spec bring to the team? Does it bring too much?
2. What other build/spec does this build/spec "suppress"? How many?

Look at just quickness firebrand.
Perspective 1: Dude brings a comfortable 30k+ DPS, which is top tier DPS right off the bat. Then, you add on-demand aegis, stability, reflect, CC, and a choice of +30% DPS, or full uptime of teamwide quickness. This kit alone entirely obviates entire fractals. "Don't look at the asura to avoid f- Oh, nm, stab." "Dodge this map-wide 20k damage attac- oh, nm, aegis." "This boss has short phases, so maybe power is better sui- oh, nm, burn stacks." Clearly, firebrand is made up of six blocks, while most other tetris shapes are made up of four.
Perspective 2: As a pure DPS, condi firebrand muscles out all other DPS classes. No condi can reach this burst (other than confusion on, like, one boss, maybe, but as a gamble). At 40k DPS, the condi DPS firebrand is tied with a few other DPS classes, while bringing with it tons of utility for free, utility that other classes either do not have access to, or need to make serious concessions to take. Things do not get any better if you compare it to just the quickness alternatives: what does a chrono or a scrapper bring as a quickness provider that can rival the qfb's loadout? The size and shape of both those classes are *entirely* enveloped by the quickbrand.

Firebrand is overpowered and over-represented in fractal CMs (not only fractal CMs, also raids), no one disputes that. In part due to far weaker alternatives for boons (weaker can also just be far more effort), in part to due its superior utility while bringing easy top tier damage performance as cqfb.

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Compare and contrast alacren.
Perspective 1: Dude brings somewhat nice 20-25k damage, depending on hitbox size. Also has very nice CC, of both the immediate and slow variety, as well as team ferocity, semi-regular protection, and minor heals. Has access to stability, even, isn't that grand!? The damage and alacrity alone are okayish, but the team support options make the spec stand out, so, five blocks. The blocks aren't going on in all directions, like a firebrand's do, but they're there, and they're above averagel.
Perspective 2: The alacren's damage doesn't compare favorably to a mesmer's alacrity in 5-man content, by about 30% at least. Said mesmer is also supplying max stacks full uptime of might, slightly lower on-demand CC, and a difficult-to-ignore boost to mobility. Clearly, the revenant provides the more comprehensive kit, but it's size and shape does not swallow the poor mesmer entirely. Special consideration for CMs goes here, because somehow the playerbase has all agreed that the alacren will be the slave to all the mechanics and special roles and duties, so yay. 

Are you going by benchmark numbers or have you actually tried alac mirage? Just asking because I play both and renegade is face-roll easier, especially with celestial gear now.

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These two classes do not provide the same mount of "too much", and they do not have the same suppression effect. 
The condition damage Scourge, on the other hand, is a beautiful example of a class that technically provides *a whole lot*, while not stepping on anyone's toes.
Perspective 1: Scourge does what is the kitten near average for a condi DPS, the 35-37k range, while being sturdy and having access to a nice amount of CC. Also allows a team to be a tiny bit more sturdy through shared barriers and signet rez. Epidemic, while nice, does not obviate encounters, just makes things go somewhat in some encounters. In absolute "boxes" number, probably much like the alacren; five comfy blocks.
Perspective 2: Any number of DPS classes can outdo scourge's numbers, condi or otherwise. The CC a Scourge brings to the table is nice, true, but isn't impossible to match, while retaining the damage advantage. The number one suppression effect here? Player comfort. It steps on nobody else's toes, and won't kick out another spec in the same role slot, but will likely outcompete other specs in the eyes of a player looking for a smooth ride. And you know what? Good. Nice. It is absolutely pleasant and good for the game that there exists a spec like that. And even in this it is not unique, sharing the "comfy, safe damage option" with a condi soulbeast, as well as the previously mentioned condi firebrand.

In short: having scourge muscle out other dps with 3 scourge to a 5 man group is good.

 

Most players will always take the way of least resistance and effort. Scourge, as you said, provides all that. It does this differently than fb and ren, yes, both of which provide desired boons. That does not make the bullying out of other specs any less an issue.

 

If scourge was a "safe option" for less skilled players, fine. There was comps like that in the past and players made use of them. If it starts outperforming everything else as to require top tier static players on other classes to beat (by give or take 5 seconds on 100CM with a lot of extra effort), there is an issue.

 

In the past, dragonhunter and holo (and to some extent DD for players with 0 rotation memory )was just that: the plebs "safe" option to run 99CM+100CM (now 98 and 99) while top tier groups ran weaver and soulbeast. Hence why there was a larger class distribution.

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In an ideal scenario, alacrens and condi scourges would suffer no (significant) nerfs; their "popularity advantage" would be better addressed by improving other options through buffs and QOL changes. In contrast, the condi, quickness, and heal firebrands are absolutely ripe for a thwack with a nerf bat. 

 

I personally don't mind any change which reduces the stacking of scourge. Doesn't have to be damage. My assumption though is that scourge will be toned down significantly as to become necromancers "utility/barrier" spec with EoD while harbinger will be the intended damage elite.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If it starts outperforming everything else

 There is a fine line between "this is kinda comfy to play, but the DPS is pitiful" and "this is kinda comfy to play, and the DPS is not bad". The fine line was north of Scourge for *years*. Scourge DPS was buffed by ~12%, and they suddently found themselves above it. 

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

having scourge muscle out other dps

 Scourge is popular, but nobody* ever goes "kick the elementalist, get the scourge" or "can you switch to your scourge instead?". The "suppression" is on the side of the player of the character, from their own motivations. Firebrand and alacren absolutely do suppress a player's access to a team, based on team preferences, a significantly different situation.

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

Are you going by benchmark numbers or have you actually tried alac mirage? Just asking because I play both and renegade is face-roll easier, especially with celestial gear now.

I play rens of various types, but don't have a mesmer.

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12 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

 There is a fine line between "this is kinda comfy to play, but the DPS is pitiful" and "this is kinda comfy to play, and the DPS is not bad". The fine line was north of Scourge for *years*. Scourge DPS was buffed by ~12%, and they suddently found themselves above it. 

Scourge was buffed more than 12%.

 

The 3 most, nearly only, represented classes in fractal CMs currently are scourge, fb and ren. With scourge taking often 3 spots while being so convenient that it also pushes out condifb currently for 100cm (mostly due to epidemic and sorrows though).

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 Scourge is popular, but nobody* ever goes "kick the elementalist, get the scourge" or "can you switch to your scourge instead?". The "suppression" is on the side of the player of the character, from their own motivations. Firebrand and alacren absolutely do suppress a player's access to a team, based on team preferences, a significantly different situation.

The graphs on wingman tell a different story. So does the majority of PUG LFG group demands. You don't have to kick anyone if you aren't even looking for that class to begin with. Feel free to try to join a current CM PUG in an elementalist and return to tell the tale.

 

I get the argument you are trying to make: firebrand and renegade are irreplaceable due to their boon and support role while dps in theory are interchangeable. That would be a good argument, IF the dps in question here wasn't so far and beyond all other choices that it literally accomplishes the same thing according to most metrics we have. That's an even worse situation.

 

This is even continued in raids, where some of the most recent record runs were done with 6 scourge (and the previous record was done mostly with fb).

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I play rens of various types, but don't have a mesmer.

Ah, so you are assuming that mirage would be the better pick. Build one, give it a spin and see if you want to switch for CMs.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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54 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Noooooooooooooooo, I compared it to banners without knowit it 😮 No way! It's like banner do same thing, that is SHARE A BUFF. At this point you have no idea what is going on, in your head scourge is bad, because it is scourge, not because of dmg, or anything else 😄 just admit your hate kitten and we can move on to whatever new meta kicks scourge out of meta when EoD launches so you can start yet another thread, how meta is not your fav char, so everything needs nerfs, that kills classes 😄

Relax, buddy.  There's no need to panic.  You didn't really think scourge was going to ride forever in its current state, did you? 🤣

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18 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

 There is a fine line between "this is kinda comfy to play, but the DPS is pitiful" and "this is kinda comfy to play, and the DPS is not bad". The fine line was north of Scourge for *years*. Scourge DPS was buffed by ~12%, and they suddently found themselves above it. 

 Scourge is popular, but nobody* ever goes "kick the elementalist, get the scourge" or "can you switch to your scourge instead?". The "suppression" is on the side of the player of the character, from their own motivations. Firebrand and alacren absolutely do suppress a player's access to a team, based on team preferences, a significantly different situation.

I play rens of various types, but don't have a mesmer.

Scourge was buffed by ~30%. Give alac mirage a try. Its extremely bad outside of 100cm. You wont believe how useless it is in most fractals. It has almost no cleave. No burst. Has lots of confusion damage which is useless on breakbars and you cant really apply long duration alacrity for split phases. You have to dodge constantly.

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1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You didn't really think scourge was going to ride forever in its current state, did you? 🤣

For another month, maybe two, and it will be outclassed by some EoD build with some weird stat set (or same)

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2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:


Perspective 2: Any number of DPS classes can outdo scourge's numbers, condi or otherwise. 

Its outdpsed by ren and cfb on more or less stationary bosses/in ideal fight scenarios. Put some chaos into it and Im not sure about cfb. Bad example as comparison though since they should be nerfed also. So what if they nerf these two? Is scourge still just "fine" then?

What else? Ok stuff like condi daredevil and condi weaver on golem bosses like mursaat or cairn. They bring nothing but damage and are hardly played anywhere else though? And for cairn just an example how small the difference between the highest dps (thief in this case) and scourge is. Spoiler: not much at all (taken from the sub 2 teapot run with scourges)

https://dps.report/e8dR-20211220-221145_cairn

And about the other dps specs in realistic fight scenarios? Well, they are not even close. Its just a fact that you can reach your highest potential dps way easier on scourge than on other classes (except condi ren). What does it even matter then if your benchmark is 2k higher? You will never achieve those numbers, scourge can though and thats why its op on single target dps also.

 

Just face it scourge defenders, its too strong and stop pointing to cfb and cren. They deserve nerfs just as much.

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7 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Its outdpsed by ren and cfb on more or less stationary bosses/in ideal fight scenarios. Put some chaos into it and Im not sure about cfb. Bad example as comparison though since they should be nerfed also. So what if they nerf these two? Is scourge still just "fine" then?

What else? Ok stuff like condi daredevil and condi weaver on golem bosses like mursaat or cairn. They bring nothing but damage and are hardly played anywhere else though? And for cairn just an example how small the difference between the highest dps (thief in this case) and scourge is. Spoiler: not much at all (taken from the sub 2 teapot run with scourges)

https://dps.report/e8dR-20211220-221145_cairn

And about the other dps specs in realistic fight scenarios? Well, they are not even close. Its just a fact that you can reach your highest potential dps way easier on scourge than on other classes (except condi ren). What does it even matter then if your benchmark is 2k higher? You will never achieve those numbers, scourge can though and thats why its op on single target dps also.

 

Just face it scourge defenders, its too strong and stop pointing to cfb and cren. They deserve nerfs just as much.

I just love how Scourge is such a hidden extremely overpowered build that is somehow played everywhere, while also other than MO and SH I rarely see a Scourge in Raids and months ago say it maybe once or twice a week in Fractals.  Scourge has been broken since a very long time while only gaining popularity in Raids/Fractals since not even a year ago.

  • You hit Scourge's DPS with reversing the Torment change Necro's out of any Fractal/Raid group.
  • You hit Epidemic in a way it's rendered useless in 100CM people will just go back to FB and Sanctuary. Another effect of that will be that you cripple it in Raids as Epi is extremely strong on MO and SH.
  • Cutting down the shared Barrier it gives out would be a possible nerf that wouldn't gut the spec. 


Considering people seem to complain about Ele being overnerfed some would be perfectly fine with doing the same to Scourge in the name of "balance". However if nerfing Ele to the point where it's barely seen in Raids was wrong doing the same or similiar to Scourge should also be wrong. 

I've seen those Wingman stats being quoted and thrown around in the last 2-3 days both in game and even on Guild Discord.
In Raids, you can perfectly see that Necro had a ~5% share before the May 11 patch among those who shared their API key with the site, then rose to ~15% since said patch. 
On the Fractals side however you see that before the May 11 patch wasn't really present in Fractals, there were more Reapers, than Scourges.

As for Epi.. trash spam in some Fractals, Deepstone, Siren's Reef, Twilight Oasis, etc. are simply just spamming trash on top of the boss. If you can Thanos snap most of them away why wouldn't you go with that option?

Instead of nerfing Scourge to a point where it would be worse than before May 11 why not look at something that would solve more issues? Exposed. Adjust it so that Condi doesn't get such high bonus and give Power a bit more, then work from there.

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1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I just love how Scourge is such a hidden extremely overpowered build that is somehow played everywhere, while also other than MO and SH I rarely see a Scourge in Raids and months ago say it maybe once or twice a week in Fractals.  Scourge has been broken since a very long time while only gaining popularity in Raids/Fractals since not even a year ago.

  • You hit Scourge's DPS with reversing the Torment change Necro's out of any Fractal/Raid group.
  • You hit Epidemic in a way it's rendered useless in 100CM people will just go back to FB and Sanctuary. Another effect of that will be that you cripple it in Raids as Epi is extremely strong on MO and SH.
  • Cutting down the shared Barrier it gives out would be a possible nerf that wouldn't gut the spec. 


Considering people seem to complain about Ele being overnerfed some would be perfectly fine with doing the same to Scourge in the name of "balance". However if nerfing Ele to the point where it's barely seen in Raids was wrong doing the same or similiar to Scourge should also be wrong. 

I've seen those Wingman stats being quoted and thrown around in the last 2-3 days both in game and even on Guild Discord.
In Raids, you can perfectly see that Necro had a ~5% share before the May 11 patch among those who shared their API key with the site, then rose to ~15% since said patch. 
On the Fractals side however you see that before the May 11 patch wasn't really present in Fractals, there were more Reapers, than Scourges.

As for Epi.. trash spam in some Fractals, Deepstone, Siren's Reef, Twilight Oasis, etc. are simply just spamming trash on top of the boss. If you can Thanos snap most of them away why wouldn't you go with that option?

Instead of nerfing Scourge to a point where it would be worse than before May 11 why not look at something that would solve more issues? Exposed. Adjust it so that Condi doesn't get such high bonus and give Power a bit more, then work from there.

I don't think anyone's tried the "but it hasn't even been OP for a year yet..." defense before.  Well played, sir.  Only in GW2...

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Jeesh, Scourge in PVE is fine. It isnt just pressing 11111111. There is a rotation and you still have to know the mechanics of Fracs/Raids. Some of ya'll act like scourges just eazy clap their way through content. You want to nerf scourge? Nerf Boons.

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7 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Instead of nerfing Scourge to a point where it would be worse than before May 11 why not look at something that would solve more issues? Exposed. Adjust it so that Condi doesn't get such high bonus and give Power a bit more, then work from there.

Sure, you can adjust Exposed. The problem though: You also hit the not overperforming cDPS builds really hard and would probably make them unviable. Fractals usually prefer pDPS builds. Exposed basically tried to balance that. Maybe we need to adjust both Exposed and Torment - and in return buff other aspects of the affected builds to keep their performance in other game modes somewhat even. Buffing the Strike Damage aspect of Exposed doesn't really seem like a good idea to me though. People also complained about NPNG here. NPNG wouldn't really be that much of an issue if parties could use Chrono/[Healer] as alternative to Firebrand/Renegade since Chrono Auto Atks strip boons. Solution: Buff Chrono; nerf Firebrand - and also introduce more alternatives to said build combinations (doesn't look like EoD will do that though...).

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17 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Scourge was buffed more than 12%.

Nope.

There was an absolute change to torment; the invert. There was an exposed buff to condition classes. Those affected all condi classes, mostly equally.

Condition damage Scourge specifically got ~12% better through a combination of Soul Barbs affecting condi damage, and Barbed Precision getting an extra second's bleed duration.

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2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Nope.

There was an absolute change to torment; the invert. There was an exposed buff to condition classes. Those affected all condi classes, mostly equally.

Condition damage Scourge specifically got ~12% better through a combination of Soul Barbs affecting condi damage, and Barbed Precision getting an extra second's bleed duration.

And the general buff didnt affect scourge? I dont understand that logic. True multiple classes were affected but the combination of soul barbs and torment buffs increased scourge dps by more than 30%

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7 hours ago, AlCapwnd.7834 said:

Jeesh, Scourge in PVE is fine. It isnt just pressing 11111111. There is a rotation and you still have to know the mechanics of Fracs/Raids. Some of ya'll act like scourges just eazy clap their way through content. You want to nerf scourge? Nerf Boons.

No. For real its just face > keyboard and ignore all but the major mechanic of every fight. When i play scourge in raids i never dodge because i dont have to. I've seen multiple players who struggled before the buffs on dps classes because they just dont care about dps rotations swap to scourge and easily clear bosses they never killed before.

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2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

And the general buff didnt affect scourge? I dont understand that logic. True multiple classes were affected but the combination of soul barbs and torment buffs increased scourge dps by more than 30%

Relative to other condi DPS, ~12%. More if the other condi DPS doesn't use torment *or confusion*. 

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4 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Sure, you can adjust Exposed. The problem though: You also hit the not overperforming cDPS builds really hard and would probably make them unviable. Fractals usually prefer pDPS builds. Exposed basically tried to balance that. Maybe we need to adjust both Exposed and Torment - and in return buff other aspects of the affected builds to keep their performance in other game modes somewhat even. Buffing the Strike Damage aspect of Exposed doesn't really seem like a good idea to me though. People also complained about NPNG here. NPNG wouldn't really be that much of an issue if parties could use Chrono/[Healer] as alternative to Firebrand/Renegade since Chrono Auto Atks strip boons. Solution: Buff Chrono; nerf Firebrand - and also introduce more alternatives to said build combinations (doesn't look like EoD will do that though...).

 

No thats not how it works. First of all you dont want to have a healer in your party to begin with if you play a power comp because you want to have fast phasetimes so you need to cover all of the offensive boons while losing the least amount of damage and still bringing enough cc and aegis / stability to have a high dps uptime. If you have npng in its current form it just straight up favors a condi comp because you have to bother to strip it in a power comp and you have to strip it fast because the bulk of the damage is dealt within the first seconds, condi on the other hand needs time to ramp up so even if npng would include resolution it would still favor condi. Secondly changing exposed would not make other condi classes unviable, cslb cdeadeye and cdaredevil are very good and in an organized condi group better than scourge, that would not change and even cmirage would still be very good on some bosses. The fact that you have a disparity in the performance between some condi builds is a balance issue however and needs to be addressed seperately it does not justify to leave exposed how it is.

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30 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Relative to other condi DPS, ~12%. More if the other condi DPS doesn't use torment *or confusion*. 

no. Your math is is not checking out at all. First of all only 4 condi classes even have torment. Mirage, Ren, cDE and scourge. cDE got nerfed into oblivion after the patch hit because they want DE to remain a meme apparently. 

And it varied a lot for these 4 classes aswell. Scourge and cDE are heavily torment centered. Scourge won the most since it didnt really get nerfed like cDE.

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13 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't think anyone's tried the "but it hasn't even been OP for a year yet..." defense before.  Well played, sir.  Only in GW2...

Except I'm not defending Scourge, but when people go on about Scourge being OP since the release of PoF or any hilariously long time mentioning that Scourge was barely considered before May 11 is warranted.
How many Scourges did you see before May 11 in Raids/Fractals and how many do you see after May 11?
 

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5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

No. For real its just face > keyboard and ignore all but the major mechanic of every fight. When i play scourge in raids i never dodge because i dont have to. I've seen multiple players who struggled before the buffs on dps classes because they just dont care about dps rotations swap to scourge and easily clear bosses they never killed before.

Ive seen thief's out DPS scourges in T4 CMs.  But im not mad when they out DPS me in PVE content. Scourges shine in certain fights. But on 99 and 98 Fracs CFB crushes scourge. Certain raids require Power over condi and Reaper is no where near DH in PDPS. I was unaware that Scourges also had Aegis to tank mind crush or similar other one shot mechanics in raids. I will look into it. I must be overlooking a trait or something that allows scourges to avoid mechanics.

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On 1/19/2022 at 5:30 PM, AlCapwnd.7834 said:

Ive seen thief's out DPS scourges in T4 CMs.  But im not mad when they out DPS me in PVE content. Scourges shine in certain fights. But on 99 and 98 Fracs CFB crushes scourge. Certain raids require Power over condi and Reaper is no where near DH in PDPS. I was unaware that Scourges also had Aegis to tank mind crush or similar other one shot mechanics in raids. I will look into it. I must be overlooking a trait or something that allows scourges to avoid mechanics.

Yet again another cfb (guardian) comparison. Great. So if everyones favorite cfb is nerfed you still keep scourge the way it is? Nerfing scourge always assumes that ANET is clever enough to nerf firebrand and renegade also. Im pretty sure that everyone here who wants nerfs want them for all three specs.

Ok so you want to play the ignore mechanics game also. 

Can Aegis ignore greens from vg effectivly? Or the aoe from gorse? Any kind of unavoidable damage like reds at cairn or whatever you want to name? How is that not ignoring mechanics? 

Edited by anbujackson.9564
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