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Current state of fractal balance


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Inspired by a reddit post about class popularity in raids i wanted to compare it to fractals and the results are very sad to say the least. Here the distribution: https://imgur.com/a/cZWySoU

100% agreed. Grabbing popcorn to see how many players will come in and tell everyone how balanced guardian, necromancer and revenant are. In revenants defense: it's the safest alacrity source ava

This is straight up lie. Another lie. Condi for speedrunning is faster on Ai and on Ensolyss   Weaver is still very much alive in raids and strikes It always was, literally n

6 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

And with epi nerf, all necro specs are usless in fractals ūüėĀ and FB is still OP

Its single target damage is unchanged and it can still cleave hard by just using shades with a few more brain cells.

But yeah.. firebrand is still way too strong. But I see myself out before all firebrand fans get here to kill me after ANET "killed" the spec with the removal of aegis on the mantra (oh noes).

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14 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Its single target damage is unchanged and it can still cleave hard by just using shades with a few more brain cells.

But yeah.. firebrand is still way too strong. But I see myself out before all firebrand fans get here to kill me after ANET "killed" the spec with the removal of aegis on the mantra (oh noes).

Without epi, there is no reason to take necro over cFB

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22 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

And with epi nerf, all necro specs are usless in fractals ūüėĀ and FB is still OP

It's not more useless than other DPS specs. Reaper was much better than scourge in some fractals, and scourge is still generally playable. It's not made by epi.

Nerfs sure hurt though.

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21 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

It's not more useless than other DPS specs. Reaper was much better than scourge in some fractals, and scourge is still generally playable. It's not made by epi.

Nerfs sure hurt though.

It is more useless than, in order of best -> worst: cfb, qcfb and calac, cDE, cSLB. There is no good objective reason left to take it over literally any other cdps on that small list. It has worse dps and worse CC. Only thing that really changed, until we get some concrete new elites figured out, fractal pugs meta is 4x FB + alac, like I said here so many times. Forum warriors, with game knowledge of dead fish won and made fractals essentially 2 class only for pugs

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41 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

It is more useless than, in order of best -> worst: cfb, qcfb and calac, cDE, cSLB. There is no good objective reason left to take it over literally any other cdps on that small list. It has worse dps and worse CC. Only thing that really changed, until we get some concrete new elites figured out, fractal pugs meta is 4x FB + alac, like I said here so many times. Forum warriors, with game knowledge of dead fish won and made fractals essentially 2 class only for pugs

 

TL;DR:

You like to complain about 4 days post expansion launch builds diversity and the fact that another overpowered class was not as heavily nerfed as your class of choice. Is that what you are getting at?

Yes, the meta reverted to 4 FB which actually have to deal with mechanics instead of just pressing epi. Yes, FB was not as heavily nerfed in the dps department (or rather the utility department) as scourge (let's ask support firebrand about the loss of aegis though) and yes, most new builds have not been figured out or built by the vast majority of the community. Surprise surpise, it's PoF and Firebrigade all over.

You know how that one turned out though right? A vast superior and more powerful comp than druid+chrono before.

Nothing you called was not expected or mentioned by anyone disagreeing with scourge dominance pre nerfs (and most often disagreeing with ren and fb at the same time). As far as playable, scrouge is still playable, just like many other builds are. Welcome to the world of regular balanced classes again.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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2 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

It is more useless than, in order of best -> worst: cfb, qcfb and calac, cDE, cSLB. There is no good objective reason left to take it over literally any other cdps on that small list. It has worse dps and worse CC. Only thing that really changed, until we get some concrete new elites figured out, fractal pugs meta is 4x FB + alac, like I said here so many times. Forum warriors, with game knowledge of dead fish won and made fractals essentially 2 class only for pugs

If only people actually cared about what class DPS is in fractals... Wait, they don't. And never did. And you could always play any DPS in the era of supposed "scourge dominance" either, unless we're talking about dedicated CM pro runs.

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5 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

If only people actually cared about what class DPS is in fractals... Wait, they don't. And never did. And you could always play any DPS in the era of supposed "scourge dominance" either, unless we're talking about dedicated CM pro runs.

Nah we are not talking abot CM pro runs just regular cm runs.

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23 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

scourge dominance

scourge never dominated anything in PvE. Epi did. Instead of fixing encounter, Anet kinda killed whole class. There is no objective reason to run scourge over CFB and DPS always mattered in Fractals. Do you even play them, or just come here to troll?

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3 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

scourge never dominated anything in PvE. Epi did. Instead of fixing encounter, Anet kinda killed whole class. There is no objective reason to run scourge over CFB and DPS always mattered in Fractals. Do you even play them, or just come here to troll?

 

I play every class and unlike you I play every type of content in this game significantly. Scourge was severely over-represented pre EoD towards the end of IBS in parts of this game. Part of the reason was epidemic in PvE. If 1 skill is this class defining, or rather broken, the best approach is to rework the skill and balance the class without that 1 skill defining it.

 

I do hope your memory of the wingman stats has not failed you. What do you know, necro is still very well represented in all pve content https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity). What is that? New elites are being tested?

 

There was no objective reason to run anything but scourge before this nerf, yet you didn't mind that did you? Firebrand remaining an issue in its current state is NOT an argument to keep scourge overpowered. It merely is an indicator that Firebrand needs more tuning (and we have 0 idea how new elite will affect this yet, soooo back to: it's barely a week into the expansion and most players are concerned with story, events, masteries and metas).

 

As far as trolling, you seem to have that covered well enough yourself. Sorry that your overpowered class of choice got gutted.

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7 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

scourge never dominated anything in PvE. Epi did. Instead of fixing encounter, Anet kinda killed whole class. There is no objective reason to run scourge over CFB and DPS always mattered in Fractals. Do you even play them, or just come here to troll?

Apparently it was nefed as to not invalidate new strike contnet with more then 1 enemy.

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11 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

scourge never dominated anything in PvE. Epi did. Instead of fixing encounter, Anet kinda killed whole class. There is no objective reason to run scourge over CFB and DPS always mattered in Fractals. Do you even play them, or just come here to troll?

Scourges were used in encounters with only one enemy too and still are. Its extremely easy to do high potential damage. Renegade was tuned down "a bit", firebrand is basically the same for whatever reason and any other condi dps spec just fails to compete. They are either too hard (weaver or holo) in realistic fights or their damage is too "low" (condi berserker or whatever).

And instead of tuning down the single target dps, they gutted the support/utillty. Something I dreaded.

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12 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

scourge never dominated anything in PvE. Epi did. Instead of fixing encounter, Anet kinda killed whole class. There is no objective reason to run scourge over CFB and DPS always mattered in Fractals. Do you even play them, or just come here to troll?

it was not only cuz of epi, yea skill was op broken but so is sustain of that class with amount of dps it deals.
fact that you can unbind dodge key since its not needed with 20k+10k barrier. heck some would even go as far as sell their monitors cuz it does not matter, you spam any skill key in random order while getting insane dps and also dont care what hits you since it wont down you.
and dead CFB is lower dps than chad scoorge, reminds me about that talks when ppl said prestacking fractals makes it faster kek

Edited by Dopamine.6324
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Scourge is currently a 39k+ dps spec. probably 40k since im bad at benchmarks. they stealth changed a core skill which does ridiculous amounts of dmg now. not quite sure if intentionel or bugged.

Calling it dead is vastly exaggerated.

"scourge never dominated in pve": how delusional can someone be. every frac cm group stacked them, tons of them in open world and a lot in raids aswell. and they are still one of the best condi dps specs. mirage is stronger if played correctly for example but only very few can do this. you have to try to do low dmg on scourge.

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2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Scourge is currently a 39k+ dps spec. probably 40k since im bad at benchmarks. they stealth changed a core skill which does ridiculous amounts of dmg now. not quite sure if intentionel or bugged.

Calling it dead is vastly exaggerated.

"scourge never dominated in pve": how delusional can someone be. every frac cm group stacked them, tons of them in open world and a lot in raids aswell. and they are still one of the best condi dps specs. mirage is stronger if played correctly for example but only very few can do this. you have to try to do low dmg on scourge.

Care to elaborate about how Scourge is reaching 39k+ now and which core skill has been changed? I'm just interested.

I do believe that Scourge is still strong enough, but there certainly are stronger alternatives. Firebrand is easier and less annoying to play and has a higher DPS potential than (pre-patch?) Scourge. And although a little harder to play, a decently well-played cDPS Renegade or cDPS Berserker also beats Scourge DPS-wise.

I don't think that Scourge was a problem nor do I think that Scourge is a problem. The problem always was Epi in combination with certain mechanics that favor Epi a bit too much for their own good. Instead of expanding on these mechanics, they chose to nerf Epi, which is fine I guess, but on the other hand, that Epi-bouncing back in the day was a really nice mechanic...

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1 hour ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Care to elaborate about how Scourge is reaching 39k+ now and which core skill has been changed? I'm just interested.

I do believe that Scourge is still strong enough, but there certainly are stronger alternatives. Firebrand is easier and less annoying to play and has a higher DPS potential than (pre-patch?) Scourge. And although a little harder to play, a decently well-played cDPS Renegade or cDPS Berserker also beats Scourge DPS-wise.

I don't think that Scourge was a problem nor do I think that Scourge is a problem. The problem always was Epi in combination with certain mechanics that favor Epi a bit too much for their own good. Instead of expanding on these mechanics, they chose to nerf Epi, which is fine I guess, but on the other hand, that Epi-bouncing back in the day was a really nice mechanic...

Bone minions leave a pulsing field behind upon explosion. Each ticking poison and damage. The skill does 60k dmg total on a 16sec cd.

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On 1/14/2022 at 9:59 AM, Wintermute.5408 said:

General problem with firebrand and renegade, imho, is due to the overall PVE combat design. Sure, in raid environment FB brings pretty much everything with him. But that's a double-edged sword.

Raid roles are already bloated beyond belief. In classic holy trinity you have roughly 1/1/2 composition of tank/heal/DPS, offering quite a lot of slots for people who just want to press buttons and deal damage.

How many slots are open for DPS in typical raid group? 1 alac, 1 tank (or whatever exotic stuff boss requires), 1 druid, 1 healbrand, 1 quick, 1 BS. That's 6 slots taken preemptively just for universal composition purposes, without taking into account needs for pushing, kiting and other weird kitten. That makes it only 4 DPS slots available in raid on average, where off-meta classes like eles or thiefs actually fit freely.

The moment you, say, nerf 10 man alacrity, you create another mandatory alac slot. The moment you strip FB of, let's say, fury or stability generation, you will most likely create yet another mandatory slot for those boons. Firebrands are overloaded. Druids are. Renes are. But without that overload, the whole structure of endgame PVE falls apart due to its bad design. Then have fun playing anything remotely off-meta. I don't think there's a solution for that.

They should just make all offensive boons self-only and remove copy/distribute effects, similar to how it was in Core except a very few long-cooldown shouts.

Then they aren't caught in a nonsensical web of balancing classes around the assumption of the presence of other classes.

The Trinity design was specifically avoided at launch because it's anti-fun and trivializes any encounter you throw at it; either it becomes a requirement to fill slots with a ton of specific roles to beat the encounter or simply becomes redundant/useless and people want DPS regardless.

All they had to do was prevent skippable phases and improve revive mechanics and all of a sudden the existence of a lower-damage tankier character brings sufficient value and improves reliability of completing the encounter should some of the DPS not be any good, while simultaneously allowing for speedrun comps to not need these kinds of support players to exist.

Strictly speaking, they needed to make more encounters function like PvP ones.  DPS is better if you're actually good, but bunker blobs are easier to succeed on and you need to coordinate with each other regardless to survive.

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14 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

They should just make all offensive boons self-only and remove copy/distribute effects, similar to how it was in Core except a very few long-cooldown shouts.

Then they aren't caught in a nonsensical web of balancing classes around the assumption of the presence of other classes.

The Trinity design was specifically avoided at launch because it's anti-fun and trivializes any encounter you throw at it; either it becomes a requirement to fill slots with a ton of specific roles to beat the encounter or simply becomes redundant/useless and people want DPS regardless.

All they had to do was prevent skippable phases and improve revive mechanics and all of a sudden the existence of a lower-damage tankier character brings sufficient value and improves reliability of completing the encounter should some of the DPS not be any good, while simultaneously allowing for speedrun comps to not need these kinds of support players to exist.

Strictly speaking, they needed to make more encounters function like PvP ones.  DPS is better if you're actually good, but bunker blobs are easier to succeed on and you need to coordinate with each other regardless to survive.

It wasnt at all like this in core. You had 25might + fury before ps warr there aswell. you just took eles and kicked ranger/necro. 

Bunker comps are already busted. Have you tried the new strikes? they are a lot different from current encounter design. 

Improve revive mechanics? seriously? because rez scourge isnt busted enough.

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20 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

They should just make all offensive boons self-only and remove copy/distribute effects, similar to how it was in Core except a very few long-cooldown shouts.

Then they aren't caught in a nonsensical web of balancing classes around the assumption of the presence of other classes.

The Trinity design was specifically avoided at launch because it's anti-fun and trivializes any encounter you throw at it; either it becomes a requirement to fill slots with a ton of specific roles to beat the encounter or simply becomes redundant/useless and people want DPS regardless.

All they had to do was prevent skippable phases and improve revive mechanics and all of a sudden the existence of a lower-damage tankier character brings sufficient value and improves reliability of completing the encounter should some of the DPS not be any good, while simultaneously allowing for speedrun comps to not need these kinds of support players to exist.

Strictly speaking, they needed to make more encounters function like PvP ones.  DPS is better if you're actually good, but bunker blobs are easier to succeed on and you need to coordinate with each other regardless to survive.

The trinity design is not inherently "anti-fun" and they avoided it because they were trying to offer something different in a field of failed WoW-clones that existed at the time.  The issue is that the trinity was never the disease so much was it was a symptom of the problem.

There are only so many ways your character can interact with the game world:  Player-to-Player (healing/support or in PvP games also encompassing DPS with the distinction of friendly vs. enemy), player-to-AI (DPS), and AI-to-player (tanks).  You can also interact with the environment, but at some point if you're going to be useful in any scenario where the goal is to reduce an AI health bar to zero, you're ultimately going to have to interact with the game in one or more of these 3 broad categories.

In that sense, GW2 didn't actually avoid anything.  They simply shifted the goalposts to limit two forms of interaction, which is really all game developers can do to change how "trinity" their games are.  Having no defined class roles, no standard threat mechanics, and no ability to provide significant healing to allies doesn't change the available methods of interaction.  It just makes some of them far less impactful than they are in a "trinity" game.

The apparent focus on DPS roles resulted from the limitations enforced by this so-called "non-trinity" design.  It also occurs in trinity games due to the breakdown of class roles (i.e. you only need X tanks, Y healer/supports, and the rest DPS).  So did GW2 really introduce any new concepts here?  Or did they merely remove things that worked and replace them with nothing?  The later addition of healing roles and a decided focus on support as well as contrived tanking roles in raid encounters hints at the answer to that.

 

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55 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The trinity design is not inherently "anti-fun" and they avoided it because they were trying to offer something different in a field of failed WoW-clones that existed at the time.  The issue is that the trinity was never the disease so much was it was a symptom of the problem.

There are only so many ways your character can interact with the game world:  Player-to-Player (healing/support or in PvP games also encompassing DPS with the distinction of friendly vs. enemy), player-to-AI (DPS), and AI-to-player (tanks).  You can also interact with the environment, but at some point if you're going to be useful in any scenario where the goal is to reduce an AI health bar to zero, you're ultimately going to have to interact with the game in one or more of these 3 broad categories.

In that sense, GW2 didn't actually avoid anything.  They simply shifted the goalposts to limit two forms of interaction, which is really all game developers can do to change how "trinity" their games are.  Having no defined class roles, no standard threat mechanics, and no ability to provide significant healing to allies doesn't change the available methods of interaction.  It just makes some of them far less impactful than they are in a "trinity" game.

The apparent focus on DPS roles resulted from the limitations enforced by this so-called "non-trinity" design.  It also occurs in trinity games due to the breakdown of class roles (i.e. you only need X tanks, Y healer/supports, and the rest DPS).  So did GW2 really introduce any new concepts here?  Or did they merely remove things that worked and replace them with nothing?  The later addition of healing roles and a decided focus on support as well as contrived tanking roles in raid encounters hints at the answer to that.

 

Well Vanilla was so and so far I read the class combo were 4-1 means 4 times the same class and then something different . Sure with he new boon sources old content got easier but with Healer +  2xhybrid supports + 2x dps you  have as someone who needs  to balance this  an easier job getting more builds/classes into the group constellation.

 

if you really would remove now all boon support you would end with 5x the same dps build.

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1 minute ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Well Vanilla was so and so far I read the class combo were 4-1 means 4 times the same class and then something different . Sure with he new boon sources old content got easier but with Healer +  2xhybrid supports + 2x dps you  have as someone who needs  to balance this  an easier job getting more builds/classes into the group constellation.

 

if you really would remove now all boon support you would end with 5x the same dps build.

If it wasn't clear, I am of the opinion that adhering strictly to this idea of "non-trinity" is a failure.  I agree that it only makes balancing more difficult.  If you take tanking and healing out of the equation, everybody is just flavors of DPS.  At best this results in a scenario where individual classes don't feel impactful.  At worst you lose all the benefits of having tanks and healers in exchange for simply filling your group with the most OP DPS.

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9 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If it wasn't clear, I am of the opinion that adhering strictly to this idea of "non-trinity" is a failure.  I agree that it only makes balancing more difficult.  If you take tanking and healing out of the equation, everybody is just flavors of DPS.  At best this results in a scenario where individual classes don't feel impactful.  At worst you lose all the benefits of having tanks and healers in exchange for simply filling your group with the most OP DPS.

In general not having a tank is not a problem but it comes with some quirks . The tank is responsible for games which have it to face the boss away from the group so they don't die. Yes we do that in raids to some degree but on the healer side it also hard to support this in Gw 2  because most of the heals are AoEs . So the game flow is not in favor of it.

 

I think the defined rolls we had sine HoT are fine I say that because Arena.NET seems to be bend on it to end it for a system closer we had in vanilla Gw2 . I see that with kick out of banner warriors in the fractals and how they promote (fire) fields again a mechanic which were mostly obsolete since HoT but also on the many nerfs of boons in the recent months.

 

This is not a direction I find any fun in it . There was always a hate-love relation with Arena.NET and boons .

The way it works in this currently still is you get rewarded to stay close to you allied and punished by not doing so because of this people always question what the purpose of the fractals instability of social awkwardness is .

 

It is also not that Gw2 boons particularly strong compare to the competition in the MMORPG space more the opposite . It is surprisingly hard to notice you dps or boons in a group with out ArcDPS compare to other games.

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5 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Well Vanilla was so and so far I read the class combo were 4-1 means 4 times the same class and then something different . Sure with he new boon sources old content got easier but with Healer +  2xhybrid supports + 2x dps you  have as someone who needs  to balance this  an easier job getting more builds/classes into the group constellation.

 

if you really would remove now all boon support you would end with 5x the same dps build.

You'd only end up with 5x the same dps build in speedrun groups.

Otherwise people playing well would supersede raw damage in scenarios where mechanics can't be skipped.

If your balance is relatively tight with like a 5% margin of error under pragmatic scenarios, only either utter idiots or record-setters would demand that kind of comp, because raid completion speeds at that point are operating on a magnitude of seconds, which is longer than how long it'd take for people to swap characters and way longer than hounding LFG to find an identical comp.

Like if it takes 12 minutes to complete the content with a diverse group that you can find immediately, or 9 minutes with some kind of speedrun-comp-played-well, but 4 minutes to comp out, congrats, you spent more time completing the content by trying to go faster.  And god forbid someone's bad at the optimal build and goes down or is playing on a bad ping or whatever.

 

The idea of building the game around roles for PvE because supposed build diversity won't happen in the speedrun community is nonsensical to letting people play and enjoy what they want in literally every other comp when the content can be completed that way lol.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So how is the state of it right now?

I checked some LFG's and you still mostly see necros guardians, revs and now also some engineers because mech is support completely op (probably played together with quickness harbringer?). Judging by the wingman data, thats pretty much it.

Firebrand is still insane (and no, the aegis removal from mantra did jack kitten), scourge target dps is unchanged and still strong (people cant adept to no epidemic apparently but shades are still a thing for cleave, now you can take stuff like spectral grasp for strong cc and whatever else floats your boat) and some of them just changed to harbringer, renegade still the best 5man alac hybrid support combined with fb probably?

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On 3/20/2022 at 5:54 AM, anbujackson.9564 said:

So how is the state of it right now?

I checked some LFG's and you still mostly see necros guardians, revs and now also some engineers because mech is support completely op (probably played together with quickness harbringer?). Judging by the wingman data, thats pretty much it.

Firebrand is still insane (and no, the aegis removal from mantra did jack kitten), scourge target dps is unchanged and still strong (people cant adept to no epidemic apparently but shades are still a thing for cleave, now you can take stuff like spectral grasp for strong cc and whatever else floats your boat) and some of them just changed to harbringer, renegade still the best 5man alac hybrid support combined with fb probably?

I firmly believe HB and Alacren are outdated and Healmech/qbrand duo is better for nearly all encounters.

 

The superior damage just helps so much more, it's just a matter of waiting for PuG LFGs to catch up.

 

I *think* Siren's and obviously Aquatic are about the only wrinkles to the new duo's power as the Mech vanishing if the Engineer hits the water is a big downside-though this can be countered by a careful Engineer this obviously isn't foolproof.

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