WvW Alliances will kill almost EVERY social interactions and friendships crafted over the past 9 years outside of your "main" WvW/Raid Guild and all Solo Players and small Guilds

[Pharaohz.3470]

Devs are on the wrong track with this restructuring/alliance. It doesn't bring anything new and the fun isn't there either.
I expected better after so many years.

[Zok.4956]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Alliances as Anet described them are joined and left by choice. Its completely impossible to be "stuck" in a random alliance. If your guild cant interact with other guilds then dont join an alliance. If your guild is in an alliance you dont like, either deal with it by following the guild lead or leave the guild.

It is completely possible to be "stuck" in a random team (if server/team transfers are not allowed anymore after the reshuffeling) that is dominated by random alliances with mostly random players. You can not be sure to play together with all members of all your guilds (or with players that are on your server but not in your guilds) because even your guild mates could select a different WvW-guild.

Server communities (the ones that still exist) will be replaced by Alliance communities and instead of just 2-3 servers/communities that are linked/shuffeled together, several Alliances and solo-players will be linked/shuffeled together in a team. 

Servers (as they are now, before the beta) can be joined or left by choice without a gatekeeper.

Alliances have gatekeepers (players who decide which guilds are allowed to join the alliance) and a player can only join an alliance if one of his guilds is a member of the alliance.

This does mean that Alliance leaders can enforce their rules (and the bigger ones will, because Alliance seats/slots are limited) to the Alliance members/guilds and that they can kick guilds/members. But right now no one can kick a player from a server.

I am not against Alliances. We have to see how it really works when it is fully implemented. But my guess is, because some guilds always try to overstack and game the system, that this overstacking will become probably easier for them.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Zok.4956

[aspirine.6852]

It has been awfully quiet in chat last few days...

[Mr Bimble.2764]

This is the pits.WvW can go kitten itself

[Zok.4956]

22 hours ago, Gilderin.4763 said:

it actually is. this is not how humans and social friendships do work. you don't decide once ever 8 weeks or two month or what ever period with whom you wanna play. also there are very very different kind of players in wvw. lets say you want to raid with your wvw guild. you did this for years, twice a week, but the rest of the week your with your spread roaming buddies from dirrerent guilds. you got to know each other by playing along over the years and you did built friendships. all this will be gone if anet is forcing this system on us. if you HAVE to chose what kind of player you want to be.

so lets say, you decide for your wvw raid still, the one that is happening twice a week. the rest of that time, your lost out with unknown people and EVEN IF YOU are able to create new friendships and you are socializing with them, all this will be SHUFFLED again after said period cause you only got influence in chosing ONE type of ally.

i rly hope you guys get whats the problem with this system. we won't be able to have social interactions we built over years within our server and enemy server. we won't be able to hop server if we wanna join a different enemy. it's not on us cause we are getting shuffled all the time. you can only chose one ally guild. thats it. everything besides that will get shuffled.
what we have now is way more adjustable even tho its not perfect.

Does your server has big guilds that are not bandwagoners but feel as a part of your server community? Does your server has a community guild? A forum, TS3 or discord? My guess is: Servers where there is still some community left, will have those. Those are the ones to ask, if they will be forming and organizing a "server Alliance".  And then all players on your server could join the community-guild (or one your your bigger server guilds that will be part of the server-Alliance).

Sure, it is not the same as the old server communities. But it is better than loosing a community completely. Because Alliances will come some time. You don't have to like it but the best solution is to deal with it and to try to make the best out of it.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Zok.4956

[Ellye.9123]

Really disappointed, for the same reasons the OP listed.

 

I enjoy seeing my server chat during WvW, seeing the same names, etc - those are people across many different guilds plus many guildless ones, the "just join an alliance" suggestion isn't a solution at all.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

the only existing communities in Wvw been guilds really. Server populations 90% shifts every few months. u fool yourself if u talk about things like "server pride" since many years.

 

@aspirine.6852 i mean, nobody of the pugs knows each other, some even didn't notice they're in alliances beta yet. if u feel chat is too quiet, u can also write sth. usually u will get responses. that's kinda the basic of human communication, you know.

[Worrbinpike.2957]

Maybe Arenat should communicate a bit exactlier that the Alliance betas are not that what we will see when they are 100% working. Because many, many players hate the betas like they are now. Most people dont know that anet is just testing the basic mechanic.

On our server the wvw chat is very toxic, and many players dont like what they are seeing now.

 

For me the betas were both also a bad experience, its the second time that i was thrown on a false server because my alliance was deselected from the game, both time i was on the wrong server. last time arenat fixed it within 24 hours, this week i'm still playing without my alliance on a wrong server.

Time will show how alliances look like with every feature, but right now i hate them also.

Oh and the balance of the beta is far from beeing fair on the server i'm just on.

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Worrbinpike.2957

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

It is completely possible to be "stuck" in a random team

He didnt say team.

He said alliance.

Two completely different things.

[Doll Mistress.9267]

On 1/15/2022 at 3:46 PM, subversiontwo.7501 said:

The difference between them and you is that they do and you don't. They test and you cry. Take this for what it is instead. Get some friends together and test the system for a week. That is what you're meant to do. It's a beta test.

That's the problem....people who aren't in huge guilds containing players all on one server get thrown into the abyss with a bunch of random other people. We can't play together...for the second beta in a row. Some of us have been playing together for 9-10+ years...

[Mazdan.2071]

Some folks have legitimate gripes and concerns and have voiced them very clearly only to be rebutted by "trolls" saying "You need to click the button" or "this is not alliances" or some other lefty kitten debate tactic putting the blame onto the person making the complaint.

 

Hear my words you trolls:  We are paying customers. The customer is always right. We can and will take our business elsewhere. And before you say "good, do it"; wvw and mmos cannot survive without players. If enough players quit you have nothing. But again you trolls can only destroy, you cannot create.

 

Also, answer me this anyone:  What does this system fix? Really. It just seems like a big man guild power play to take over wvw and kitten on the casuals. This isn't Esports. Go to LoL kitten.

 

I can always spend my time playing my Strat and kicking kitten.

 

[subversiontwo.7501]

22 minutes ago, Doll Mistress.9267 said:

That's the problem....people who aren't in huge guilds containing players all on one server get thrown into the abyss with a bunch of random other people. We can't play together...for the second beta in a row. Some of us have been playing together for 9-10+ years...

Like other players who are concerned about this you seem to distinguish between a collective with guilds and collective without guilds. The guild is just an ingame function to facilitate tools and functions for a collective. There's no magic about it, no exotic unknown. Like other players who are concerned about this you seem to have a very hard time navigating whether you have a collective or not.

I'm giving you one pretty good example of that in the post that you completely misqouted and pulled out of context: The huge guilds you seen in this beta were made specifically for this beta. It was people completely recreating that ingame tool to build specific collectives for these specific betas. Those are not huge pre-existing guilds with some sort of advantage.

In any discussion about this topic where people have held your concerns have they been unable to motivate any satisfactory answer to what makes them unable to create or join a guild. Instead we keep getting bad excuses like being full on guild slots (which could easily be solved by anet giving a free slot and only shows a lack of commitment for which other players should not have to suffer) and their actual concerns almost always delves down to their own conception of their collective not being shared within the perceived collective itself.

If you or anyone else wants to get past that roadblock in your concerns you'd need to explain and provide a satsifactory motivation. What stops you from putting those 9-10 year friends in a guild together beyond the possibility that they would not like to be in your guild or would rather like to be in another guild?

[Doll Mistress.9267]

Every server has a particular playstyle and personality. Alliances take that away. I've been on the same server since the second or third month of the game...for good reason...I LIKE the people I play with and we play well together, and we can relate to eachother on many levels. I bounced around a bit until I found a home server with friends from GW1. 

I don't want to be thrown into a random bunch of new people every few weeks. I don't want large scale pvp with a bunch of random trolls. I picked a server to play on because of the type of people who were there! 

Also, you are not taking into account the variety of ages in this game.  This game has some of the oldest and some of the youngest gamers I've ever heard of....each age group is going to have a different set of interests and chat will be affected by that. Older people aren't going to be happy alone in a group of young teens and teens aren't going to be happy alone in a group of grandparents...and they aren't going to understand eachother's interests or slang.

PS what happened to the things we were promised?

..like...

Repairing siege? Speaking of siege...it should be powerful...and difficult to take down.

Strategy....we were promised more of it...and we're still waiting. You said we were going to have to work together to accomplish things...

Gamewide server chat ...that many have been asking for since before the megaservers...It used to be nice to be able to go into LA and ask for help in wvw.

[subversiontwo.7501]

You're just bringing in a number of different and unrelated things now. You're not answering the question.

You can make a guild with the people whose personality, attitude, age-group and server-chat routines you like. The type of people you picked a server for you can pick a guild for. Then you won't be alone. If you choose not to join a guild you are choosing the random loneliness.

What's stopping you? You can make that guild today.

Edited January 19, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Doll Mistress.9267]

1 minute ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

What stops you from putting those 9-10 year friends in a guild together beyond the possibility that they would not like to be in your guild or would rather like to be in another guild?

We did that...and still ended up all over the place. How many posts do you have to read that say the same thing?

Alliances only work for the really big guilds and the people who want large-scale pvp. A lot of people have quit pvp because of the toxicity...
 

[subversiontwo.7501]

17 minutes ago, Doll Mistress.9267 said:

We did that...and still ended up all over the place. How many posts do you have to read that say the same thing?

Alliances only work for the really big guilds and the people who want large-scale pvp. A lot of people have quit pvp because of the toxicity...
 

And you don't realize that is a bug and not a feature? You don't realize that them other "really big guilds, huge guilds, who want large scale PvP" are suffering the same bugs as you do while this is being developed and fixed? You're throwing out two statements that just bang heads.

Answer the question, stop stalling and stop dodging. Give the rest of us a reason to see anyting in your concerns that you have a reason to be concerned about, so we have a reason to agree with you or find common ground. As long as you're not doing that we can't sympathize with you or help you.

You can make your own guild without toxicity 🙂 . It seems like you don't have much else on your plate for the next two days, until this beta is over and they go to work on the bugs.

Edited January 19, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Meridian.9103]

2 hours ago, Mazdan.2071 said:

Some folks have legitimate gripes and concerns and have voiced them very clearly only to be rebutted by "trolls" saying "You need to click the button" or "this is not alliances" or some other lefty kitten debate tactic putting the blame onto the person making the complaint.

I see very few "legitimate concerns" here but mostly people displaying one of the following:

- not understanding the alliance system

- not understanding what a beta is

- not understanding the system's state right now compared to what it is supposed to be when all features are implemented

- refusing to put in a least bit of effort or to make a decision to play with the people they want to keep playing with

The new system gives player's a lot of agency. Only 2 or 3 posts here have stated some extreme cases where it is not able to fully maintain the status quo.

All in all, the notion that alliances will be "killing all social interactions" is nothing but an exaggeration in my eyes.

[Zok.4956]

5 hours ago, Meridian.9103 said:

All in all, the notion that alliances will be "killing all social interactions" is nothing but an exaggeration in my eyes.

Of course it will not be killing all social interactions of all players, but it could maybe kill almost every social interactions of some players and it will probably change social interactions and the community a lot.  Like Megaservers and server-linking changed social interactions and community a lot in the past.

Some players will welcome the change, some will not notice any change (or do not care) and others will see it as a change that makes social interaction and community much worse than it is now.  

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Zok.4956

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

8 hours ago, Doll Mistress.9267 said:

Every server has a particular playstyle and personality. Alliances take that away. I've been on the same server since the second or third month of the game...for good reason...I LIKE the people I play with and we play well together, and we can relate to eachother on many levels. I bounced around a bit until I found a home server with friends from GW1. 

I don't want to be thrown into a random bunch of new people every few weeks. I don't want large scale pvp with a bunch of random trolls. I picked a server to play on because of the type of people who were there! 

Also, you are not taking into account the variety of ages in this game.  This game has some of the oldest and some of the youngest gamers I've ever heard of....each age group is going to have a different set of interests and chat will be affected by that. Older people aren't going to be happy alone in a group of young teens and teens aren't going to be happy alone in a group of grandparents...and they aren't going to understand eachother's interests or slang.

PS what happened to the things we were promised?

..like...

Repairing siege? Speaking of siege...it should be powerful...and difficult to take down.

Strategy....we were promised more of it...and we're still waiting. You said we were going to have to work together to accomplish things...

Gamewide server chat ...that many have been asking for since before the megaservers...It used to be nice to be able to go into LA and ask for help in wvw.

ur kinda describing a fairytale there - servers don't really have identities. some groups on the servers are known, like for hiding within keeps behind absurd amounts of sieges, or for 100% only clouding and clogging EBG with queues. that is on EU by now most servers tho.

 

as said, it is confusing when u act like servers are a constant. they most of the populations just swaps anyways. u talk at best of 10 people u may know that stick like glue to the server - or just have several alt accounts, where they bridge the bad times that every single servers have.

 

i do agree that it would be great to be able to just call "everyone on this team/server" with a certain chat function. like sometimes ppl may be coming if they knew there's a 20ish group ganking around roamers and randoms.

 

strategy and siege is kinda antithesis to each other. siege is mostly used to cheese stuff by stacking it. anet even noticed that rather soon by the apparent arrow cart abuse while lead to stonemist lord beeing put on floor 1. like, do u really call it strategy to just have 10 mortars and trebs and arrowcarts stacked firing at anyone trying to open a keep? it's more some sad defender roleplay. its yet quite easy to stall attacks by invuln and siege disablers

 

in fact, if players would use their classes' benefits to work together and support each other THAT is/would be strategy. irl, the non-voiced groups are often just a cloud of wannabe rambos, who die 20 times more than they kill anything.

 

plus, i see zero benefit in repairing siege - only makes the turtleserver turtle harder. learn to use your skills to do damage, stacking 10 arrowcarts is yet broken enough. if they heavily limit siege on maps, then we can talk about buffing it. as for now, absolutely no. and it mustn't be harder to kill also.

 

changes that i'd welcome would be a limiting of siege for attackers and defender on each map segment,  and less range on catas and mortars, target cap introduction for cata/mortar/treb CC effects. additionally, there could be many new types of siege. afaik there wasn't any new type introduced for aeons.

 

like really, siegeing offensive and defensively is the most boring stuff in Wvw possible.

[BloodRavenz.6084]

2 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

ur kinda describing a fairytale there - servers don't really have identities. some groups on the servers are known, like for hiding within keeps behind absurd amounts of sieges, or for 100% only clouding and clogging EBG with queues. that is on EU by now most servers tho.

 

plus, i see zero benefit in repairing siege - only makes the turtleserver turtle harder. learn to use your skills to do damage, stacking 10 arrowcarts is yet broken enough. if they heavily limit siege on maps, then we can talk about buffing it. as for now, absolutely no. and it mustn't be harder to kill also.

 

changes that i'd welcome would be a limiting of siege for attackers and defender on each map segment,  and less range on catas and mortars, target cap introduction for cata/mortar/treb CC effects. additionally, there could be many new types of siege. afaik there wasn't any new type introduced for aeons.

 

like really, siegeing offensive and defensively is the most boring stuff in Wvw possible.

 

They used to have a cap on how much siege you could place on a map years ago. (i know this for fact because my guild actually capped the map once by trying to put down a line of Flame Rams from north camp to south camp, capped the map somewhere before Garrison if i recall.) 

(before you ask, it was a boring matchup, we were bored and there was a lot of drinking involved)

 

I don't have much of an issue with siege inside a keep, is it annoying, yeah, but that is what it's there for, Arrow carts are defensive siege....they should be required to be more spread out though.   

 

Strategy comes in on how you deal with it....do you just force your way through....or do you pull back and put down your own siege (like trebs or Balista's) to clear the top of the walls first. 

[Chaba.5410]

9 hours ago, Doll Mistress.9267 said:

We did that...and still ended up all over the place. How many posts do you have to read that say the same thing?
 

This sounds more like you and your guildmates got confused by the UI and didn't understand how to select the guild for matchmaking before the deadline. Or your guildmates selected a different guild instead of yours.

I'm in some larger guilds and only 1 or 2 people in each got mismatched and it's the same for some other guilds I talk to. So it's hard to understand why an entire guild would be so scattered.

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Of course it will not be killing all social interactions of all players, but it could maybe kill almost every social interactions of some players and it will probably change social interactions and the community a lot.  Like Megaservers and server-linking changed social interactions and community a lot in the past.

Some players will welcome the change, some will not notice any change (or do not care) and others will see it as a change that makes social interaction and community much worse than it is now.  

 

I have extreme doubts. Sure some social interactions will be reframed. Does this change "kill" something we had in the past? Not really. On my server's community old forum it was always a struggle to get everyone to interact and participate in their server community. People had the same kind of levels of interaction with their teams as they do now and as they will in the future. I don't see any real difference that restructuring is going to bring.

[Doll Mistress.9267]

13 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

This sounds more like you and your guildmates got confused by the UI and didn't understand how to select the guild for matchmaking before the deadline. Or your guildmates selected a different guild instead of yours.

I'm in some larger guilds and only 1 or 2 people in each got mismatched and it's the same for some other guilds I talk to. So it's hard to understand why an entire guild would be so scattered.

Nobody was confused. I play wvw with a group of friends...some are guildies and some are not. It's at least 5-6 different guilds this happened to on my erver alone. Most people didn't even change their alliance since the last beta. The main guild I am in is a multiserver pve guild, but, there were wvw guilds that the same thing happened to. I literally have 1 person on my friendlist on my assigned server...1.

[Chaba.5410]

42 minutes ago, Doll Mistress.9267 said:

It's at least 5-6 different guilds this happened to on my erver alone.

Do you mean those guilds also were way too scattered?  Weird.  I wonder if the common thread has to do with your specific server.

[Mabi black.1824]

On 1/19/2022 at 6:13 AM, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Like other players who are concerned about this you seem to distinguish between a collective with guilds and collective without guilds. The guild is just an ingame function to facilitate tools and functions for a collective. There's no magic about it, no exotic unknown. Like other players who are concerned about this you seem to have a very hard time navigating whether you have a collective or not.

I'm giving you one pretty good example of that in the post that you completely misqouted and pulled out of context: The huge guilds you seen in this beta were made specifically for this beta. It was people completely recreating that ingame tool to build specific collectives for these specific betas. Those are not huge pre-existing guilds with some sort of advantage.

In any discussion about this topic where people have held your concerns have they been unable to motivate any satisfactory answer to what makes them unable to create or join a guild. Instead we keep getting bad excuses like being full on guild slots (which could easily be solved by anet giving a free slot and only shows a lack of commitment for which other players should not have to suffer) and their actual concerns almost always delves down to their own conception of their collective not being shared within the perceived collective itself.

If you or anyone else wants to get past that roadblock in your concerns you'd need to explain and provide a satsifactory motivation. What stops you from putting those 9-10 year friends in a guild together beyond the possibility that they would not like to be in your guild or would rather like to be in another guild?

hi subversiontwo,

if it can be useful I answer your question.

like the other betas I joined my wvw guild, the system worked well and we found ourselves together.

outside of our group you look around and realize that you do not recognize anyone.

you realize that you are in a world that you do not know and you have no incentive to get busy ......... zero motivation.

moreover, you have to be blind not to notice that the new system effectively removes a social tool, the server.

for my enjoyment here it has been a fundamental tool, and from what I have read lately it has been for many of us.

it has already been said that your server is there, always and in any case, that you win or lose ..... it is there even when some tags or guilds leave and others arrive.

it is there and no one has to ask permission to enter it is there and no one has to tell you how to play it , when and how.

so to answer your question I tell you that there is no problem to join some friends to play together, and remix everything after a few weeks, but this does not even come close to being part of a team / server.