Why no viable Dagger ele builds?

[Tiviana.2650]

I like doing instanced content, but hate getting pigeon holed into something. Take ele for instance, there are no viable mainhand dagger builds for dps. I think its fun to play dagger, but its not worth it in any instanced content. Thats sad no staff caster dps no dagger dps, sword is okay but dagger is more fun. 

[Noodle Ant.1605]

isnt dagger eles best condi dps weapon? though i think scepter wins if purely camping fire (depends on gear though)

the problem people have with dagger is that it incorporates dashes in its rotation which makes it finicky to maximise its dps. this is more of a problem where there is absolutely no space to dash or the target cant be dashed through; otherwise, you can dash across the front of, or from the targets hitbox outwards (and fire #1/2 while running back as they have sufficient range). in all cases you can choose to omit the dash skills completely (and or also skip e/e for weaver), which shouldnt impact dps by too much

[Fuchslein.8639]

Play with friends or do your'e own groups so you can play what you want.

I'm fully whit you, dagger is fun on ele :).

[Bakeneko.5826]

5 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

isnt dagger eles best condi dps weapon

It is

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Condi Tempest
Heal Tempest(kind of)
Condi Weaver

[SeTect.5918]

On 1/16/2022 at 5:07 AM, Tiviana.2650 said:

I like doing instanced content, but hate getting pigeon holed into something. Take ele for instance, there are no viable mainhand dagger builds for dps. I think its fun to play dagger, but its not worth it in any instanced content. Thats sad no staff caster dps no dagger dps, sword is okay but dagger is more fun. 

There are. Condi dagger actually does 41k dps on large hitbox. 

Its the best condi weapon on large hitbox but worse than condi sword on small hitbox. Which doesn't mean that condi dagger isnt viable on small hitbox.

It is pretty good actually. 

But: 

I think the reason why most are using sword is that you can whoop urself down a Cliff too fast (Earth dagger 3 and fire dagger 3). 

However on lots of bosses you can surely use dagger but i would always also have a sword with me for fights on platforms or near Cliffs.

Edited January 27, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Noodle Ant.1605]

2 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

There are. Condi dagger actually does 41k dps on large hitbox. 

Its the best condi weapon on large hitbox but worse than condi sword on small hitbox. Which doesn't mean that condi dagger isnt viable on small hitbox.

It is pretty good actually. 

im pretty sure the large hitbox is just there to make the golem easier to hit. small hitbox just requires more thought in positioning as the player needs to constantly take note of whether to move closer (for pbaoes) or farther (to avoid overshooting dashes) from the target

[The Boz.2038]

It's because of skills that zoom you forward. Burning speed yeets you a fixed distance, then goes boom. On a large hitbox, done from the edge, the yeet and boom still leaves you within melee range of the boss, you don't waste time walking back.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It's because of skills that zoom you forward. Burning speed yeets you a fixed distance, then goes boom. On a large hitbox, done from the edge, the yeet and boom still leaves you within melee range of the boss, you don't waste time walking back.

with an optimal starting position, the standard/“small” golem hitbox is probably big enough to the entire rotation without moving either. hitbox size starts to matter on sabetha-small hitboxes, but you only spend a fraction of second moving back into range and lose at most 1 pulse of grinding stones/primordial stance, which is unlikely to account for any more than 2% of your total dps

realistically, you need to know how to move with dagger anyway because the yeet ”yeets” you away from the stack, and you want to minimise this distance walking back (while still dpsing ofc)

at least with a bigger hitbox my badly aimed burning speed/flamewalls might still hit

Edited January 28, 2022 by Noodle Ant.1605

[Bakeneko.5826]

20 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

with an optimal starting position, the standard/“small” golem hitbox is probably big enough to the entire rotation without moving either. hitbox size starts to matter on sabetha-small hitboxes, but you only spend a fraction of second moving back into range and lose at most 1 pulse of grinding stones/primordial stance, which is unlikely to account for any more than 2% of your total dps

realistically, you need to know how to move with dagger anyway because the yeet ”yeets” you away from the stack, and you want to minimise this distance walking back (while still dpsing ofc)

at least with a bigger hitbox my badly aimed burning speed/flamewalls might still hit

No, Boz is right, big hit boxes are hit more, needs less downtime

[Noodle Ant.1605]

1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

No, Boz is right, big hit boxes are hit more, needs less downtime

hit more… by what? burning speeds 7th tick? you can still get that on standard golem casting from outside hitbox but i guess casting inside the large hitbox removes the rng completely. i dont think theres anything else besides this 1 tick, but feel free to remind me of anything ive missed

the concern for up/downtime is understandable, but the standard golem hitbox is in fact just big enough to maintain 100% dps uptime on. earthen rush is the longest range dash at 480 units (burning speed and steam surge are ~425, while mud slide is 360) and the shortest range skill(s) is 180 radius - the size of an untraited guardian symbol. if you were drop two of these symbols at the start and end of the dash, the target has to have a hitbox size of <120 to stand in between the symbols without getting hit. the standard golem apparently has a hitbox size of 140 units, but ofc you want far more leeway than 20 units to work with

because the dash distances arent equal and would likely displace you over time, “doing the entire rotation without moving” is probably impossible, but even with an imaginary hitbox size of 0 (and ignoring it would affect other certain skills like dragons claw), again only 1 pulse of grinding stones/primordial stance is all you should be ideally losing. with unmodified movement speed in combat at 200 units/s, the longest dash only 480 units and the minimum skill distance of 180, you dont need to walk that far before youre already back within range