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delete thief please ! or delete stealth .. 

I am attaching my post from the "Random Question" Thread here as well just to cover my bases.    I took a look at this video and it seems like the main points of the nerf SA train they're tr

You are so disconnected with reality I can't decide if it's funny or tragic. Thief is still the strongest class in the game, more so than core necro. It has been for years and it will continue to be u

On 1/19/2022 at 3:34 PM, Chrysaliss.8720 said:

Why so much hate towards thief when there are way more overpowered classes like necro and guard?

so easy to fight necros..  
also  necros you can atleast see right?   thief you cant see.. and ill argue and say that nothing is more op than that cheesy stupid stealth thieves around 

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On 1/21/2022 at 2:23 PM, noiwk.2760 said:

so easy to fight necros..  
also  necros you can atleast see right?   thief you cant see.. and ill argue and say that nothing is more op than that cheesy stupid stealth thieves around 

I can see thieves, why cant you? 

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On 1/19/2022 at 3:11 PM, Crab Fear.1624 said:

If the fight isn't over for thief in like 10 secs or less, it's not a win for the thief, and therefore a pointless fight.

If you have the ability to hold out for any amount of time past this they will leave.

If you die in less than 10 secs, it is YOU.

You are so disconnected with reality I can't decide if it's funny or tragic. Thief is still the strongest class in the game, more so than core necro. It has been for years and it will continue to be unless they absolutely destroy the class. 

 

Nerfing SA will at least punish bad thieves. 

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54 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

You are so disconnected with reality I can't decide if it's funny or tragic. Thief is still the strongest class in the game, more so than core necro. It has been for years and it will continue to be unless they absolutely destroy the class. 

 

Nerfing SA will at least punish bad thieves. 

I mean, he thinks that if he doeasnt win in 10s he lost, what an entitlement lol

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On 1/18/2022 at 12:58 PM, anjo.6143 said:

 

Besides mesmer, all classes should win any 1x1 fight against thief, it is a matter of skill. 

 

And u dont even need reveal skill, at all. 

 

I do recommend u create a thief and learn the class, i have zero problems in win vs thieves in other classes. 

i have no problem 1v1 other classes on thief

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The only thing I don't like about thief (to an extent where I would go "delete this") is condi thief in wvw. 3 attacks and stealth while you are dying from the condis? Really? Though its far from the only low effort build there so...

For spvp the condi build has 0 impact (on top of what any thief build does already), I wouldn't touch thief at all there.

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On 1/20/2022 at 12:40 AM, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Honestly there are issues with stealth in this game but stealth is far from the only problem. Gw2 has literally became a meme of a mmo for pvp and will never have a healthy population as long as devs ignore and actually promote certain playstyle that make most competitive players laugh their kitten off at this game right before hitting the delete button. Examples of these are zoo neceo, trapper guard, core burn guard that has far more sustain than a guard main pretends to only have while doing insane braindrad bursts, flamethrower scrapper(gotta love that swiftness and stab while u literally spam one button on a opponent till all their clears are gone than chase them with that sweet sweet swiftness while roasting them haha). These types of builds are way to effective for the effort to play them. A player that's played the game a week can use one of these builds and get to plat one before having issues vs players who are really skilled and coordinated and $hit on them. Anet needs to do a lot more than evaluate stealth in this game for it to get to the point again where its not a joke. Look at eod specs, almost all of them are trash for pvp/wvw and have major design issues, but they'll be fine in pve where everything works cuz 8ts all braindead easy yay!

Stealth issue is connected to the client desync, while on screen of the thief player he is not stealthed when he does the hit, the other player might eat several attacks before the thief even appears on his screen, ill be blasphemous for thieves and say that this could fixed with little bit longer cast times and desthealthing in the before the attack connects. There is other ways that stealth that could be implemented to be fair like in other games that solved and were cautious with the mechanic, but i do not think anet will ever redesign it.
My big gripe with thief is that nothing really counters it in rotations, there is nothing that can just go and shut down a thief's rotation as a build, which somewhat promotes full team meta counter by picking heavy builds that are all about stalling and forcing teamfights, since if i can't kill the thief but he can't kill me either in a gank i win just by sitting on my node.

To tell you the truth you can lump D/P thief with the FT scrapper on mechanical intensity, it is not exactly great strats and grand mechanical skill to spam 2 for damage and 5 to blind people or runaway.

Anet could have added something like combo system to do more damage  for clicking different abilities instead of spamming the same one or doing the Decapitate with Heartseeker and taking allot of initiative when cast but it refunds it if it hits, basically giving other people outplay option vs thief by putting them in unfavourable position if they kitten up and spam allot. There could also be an anti dodge bot mechanic(if that kitten pops up again) instead of exhaustion, teleporting around or dodging allot stack a flat footed debuff, where people can daze, cripple, imobilise or knock you down  by hitting you (excluding aoe pulsing circles) depending on the debuff or even the character to do a wipe out if it reaches the capp of the debuff (basically the holo forge mechanic if it was actually tuned and balanced and not a non issue) , i kind of like the idea of parkour people wiping out for misjudging their ability in the game.

 There are allot of ways to add fair mechanics without making it overbearing, than increasing cds , initiative (or whatever resource system you can think of ) and reducing damage since couldn't balance a OP mechanical skill (Best example is on scourge, why don't we add like more wells but as a main mechanic high fives for everybody yey.) 

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1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Stealth issue is connected to the client desync, while on screen of the thief player he is not stealthed when he does the hit, the other player might eat several attacks before the thief even appears on his screen, ill be blasphemous for thieves and say that this could fixed with little bit longer cast times and desthealthing in the before the attack connects. There is other ways that stealth that could be implemented to be fair like in other games that solved and were cautious with the mechanic, but i do not think anet will ever redesign it.
My big gripe with thief is that nothing really counters it in rotations, there is nothing that can just go and shut down a thief's rotation as a build, which somewhat promotes full team meta counter by picking heavy builds that are all about stalling and forcing teamfights, since if i can't kill the thief but he can't kill me either in a gank i win just by sitting on my node.

To tell you the truth you can lump D/P thief with the FT scrapper on mechanical intensity, it is not exactly great strats and grand mechanical skill to spam 2 for damage and 5 to blind people or runaway.

Anet could have added something like combo system to do more damage  for clicking different abilities instead of spamming the same one or doing the Decapitate with Heartseeker and taking allot of initiative when cast but it refunds it if it hits, basically giving other people outplay option vs thief by putting them in unfavourable position if they kitten up and spam allot. There could also be an anti dodge bot mechanic(if that kitten pops up again) instead of exhaustion, teleporting around or dodging allot stack a flat footed debuff, where people can daze, cripple, imobilise or knock you down  by hitting you (excluding aoe pulsing circles) depending on the debuff or even the character to do a wipe out if it reaches the capp of the debuff (basically the holo forge mechanic if it was actually tuned and balanced and not a non issue) , i kind of like the idea of parkour people wiping out for misjudging their ability in the game.

 There are allot of ways to add fair mechanics without making it overbearing, than increasing cds , initiative (or whatever resource system you can think of ) and reducing damage since couldn't balance a OP mechanical skill (Best example is on scourge, why don't we add like more wells but as a main mechanic high fives for everybody yey.) 

Ur right dp teef isn't mechanically hard and it is spammy and mechanically brain dead BUT u have to kno the class ur fighting, have good timing and atleast be skillful with ur active defenses to stay alive....if u don't run away. FL build and the others I mention literally are mechanically braindead with zero need for timing or knowledge of ur opponent, just juggernaut and spam 1 whahoooooo, anyway that's gw2 since 2020 and the reason pvp is dead and will remain dead, the current devs are are either under staffed for scope of the game or are just bad.

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On 1/25/2022 at 12:49 AM, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Ur right dp teef isn't mechanically hard and it is spammy and mechanically brain dead BUT u have to kno the class ur fighting, have good timing and atleast be skillful with ur active defenses to stay alive....if u don't run away. FL build and the others I mention literally are mechanically braindead with zero need for timing or knowledge of ur opponent, just juggernaut and spam 1 whahoooooo, anyway that's gw2 since 2020 and the reason pvp is dead and will remain dead, the current devs are are either under staffed for scope of the game or are just bad.

Tried it again and i think is not exactly 1 woooo like you say, you really have to defend yourself with this one, but yes the damage portion is press 1 , it does great vs guardian and necro but anything that is not slow  just roles through it, holo is just way better engi than this since it is way more versatile. FT is at best semi viable teamfight build for gold as a contest to necro .

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It really comes down to players knowing the mechanics which for specific groups of players I've gone and played pretty much every class against a Thief showing these people how it doesn't matter what class you are on.  In WvW it doesn't matter because you pretty much have watchtower, sentries, and consumables using supply that do this regardless of what class you are playing.  In most cases what it comes down to is players using what they have available to slowly.

 

Best way to explain this for anyone who does not understand what all of that means is that it's like when you take a ball to throw to another person.  If you put up your hands to catch it after it has hit, you and fallen down on the ground at that point what you have done has been done too late to make the desired impact.  So, complaining about Thief, Stealth, or claiming its broken is absolutely ridiculous if you do not use the counters to it properly it's no one's fault but your own.

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On 1/23/2022 at 10:13 PM, felix.2386 said:

i have no problem 1v1 other classes on thief

Ye, u wont have any problems against low skill level players. Thats not the debate, since u can beat anyone worse than u. 

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14 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Mighty Teapot, Rom, and Helseth had a very interesting discussion about thief and SA in particular recently:

The relevant discussion starts at 1:32:00.  But the whole thing is good.

I am attaching my post from the "Random Question" Thread here as well just to cover my bases.

 

 I took a look at this video and it seems like the main points of the nerf SA train they're trying to start are for the following (If I am incorrect about the main arguments, please correct me.) :

> The thief, being the most mobile class, should be either glass or a dodge bot. 

> The fact that thief can pressure me at sidenode with decaps so that I have to guess whether the thief is still at sidenode waiting for me to leave or is at mid bullying my team 5v4 is unfair. 

> Shadow arts carries thieves because they are essentially perma stealthed//It is difficult to distinguish between good or bad thieves because shadow arts exists.

>Thief is unfun to fight when it uses shadow arts

>Smokescreen is annoying because it covers thief pressure on the node. 

Let me address these one at a time. 

 

Quote

 

> The thief, being the most mobile class, should be either glass or a dodge bot. 

 

I would be inclined to agree with this, if not for the following:

> Thief has other weapons besides shortbow. Without shortbow, its mobility is significantly lessened.

> Both glass thief and dodge bot thief were attempted in the past, with both playstyles meeting similar levels (or greater levels) of disapproval. D/P , Staff, Sword Pistol and Acrobatics as a whole were nerfed because of this. If you want one of the above instead of the stealth spam, fine; but both of those are arguably less counterable and will also generate whine and you will have to either rework or buff the articles above to facilitate that playstyle. Mighty touched on the fact that "sure you could throw a ranger at it, but it doesn't provide team value". To which I say: Okay? working as intended. There are options out there for people to nuke thieves whether they are stealthed or not, but people want to be able to do both that -and- teamfight with no loss, while lamenting thieves minding their business decapping/+1ing. Take a step back and think about what you're asking for. If I'm not sane in my reasoning here, please correct me.

Further, if you feel thieves should be either glass or a dodge bot [explicitly because of shortbow] Then the weapon sets and dual skills that make thief less mobile should get more mitigation. That way thieves trying other weapon sets don't get shafted in this never-ending crusade to balance around shortbow mobility. 
 

Quote

> The fact that thief can pressure me at sidenode with decaps so that I have to guess whether the thief is still at sidenode waiting for me to leave or is at mid bullying my team 5v4 is unfair. 

Isn't this the whole point of the kitten class? It feels like people are upset that they're getting mindgamed. That tension about whether you should make a call for whether thief is still around or back at mid is part of the result of a good thief presence on sidenode. If you guess right, the thief is wasting time doing nothing. If you guess wrong, -you- are wasting time doing nothing. If you want something different, see above.

Also what thief just silently hangs around node without providing some kind of visual or audio indication in full stealth? You can hear when black powder gets dropped, you can see smokescreen dropped for linking. If a thief is silently hanging around at sidenode for long enough that you need to gamble on whether the thief is there or not, the thief is likely hanging out in some corner you cant see, and nerfing SA wont even fix that interaction. I respect Helseth's ability on mesmer, but I don't understand the rationale here.

Quote

> Shadow arts carries thieves because they are essentially perma stealthed/It is difficult to distinguish between good or bad thieves because shadow arts exists.

I am inclined to agree that shadow arts does carry players that would probably crash and burn on another traitline. I also don't particularly enjoy the dipping in and out of stealth playstyle, but I have also watched these forums systematically argue for the nerfing of s/d, acro. D/P, S/P, Staff, Deadly Arts, vigor in general, shortbow, P/D, and possibly every iteration of condi thief. The thieves have to play something, something has to work. Because if the thieves can't play anything that core necro bunker meta everyone is enjoying is going to get several times more boring and stagnant with nobody to flip nodes. Itll be just like the ESports sprint we had where the meta was first team to run to the nodes and set up a guardian won. 

As for whether you personally have issue distinguishing between good or bad thieves, I have no reason to argue for or against any action relating to that. Good thieves do their job in conquest. I don't think displaying their caliber should really be a part of their build, that kind of tends to radiate from people that have it anyway.

Quote

>Thief is unfun to fight when it uses shadow arts

I'd say this is subjective, but even if it isn't, good. As I mentioned elsewhere, nobody like fighting your sic'em soulbeast/DH/FT Scrapper/ Holo / necro/ insert other class here either. That's no excuse to lobby for butchering of traitlines, people have been pushed to run those because the other options are not serviceable. 

Quote

>Smokescreen is annoying because it covers thief pressure on the node. 

Fair. The radius should be reduced, and perhaps the blind pulse should be reduced as well. I wouldn't mind if this went back to a line. Yes, thieves need the option to have staying power if they trait for it, but that staying power should probably have some counterplay/not occupy the whole node.



Tl'dr: If you wanna nerf shadow arts, fine. Fix the other mitigation traitlines and thief damage in general like you claim you want. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I am attaching my post from the "Random Question" Thread here as well just to cover my bases.

 

 I took a look at this video and it seems like the main points of the nerf SA train they're trying to start are for the following (If I am incorrect about the main arguments, please correct me.) :

> The thief, being the most mobile class, should be either glass or a dodge bot. 

> The fact that thief can pressure me at sidenode with decaps so that I have to guess whether the thief is still at sidenode waiting for me to leave or is at mid bullying my team 5v4 is unfair. 

> Shadow arts carries thieves because they are essentially perma stealthed//It is difficult to distinguish between good or bad thieves because shadow arts exists.

>Thief is unfun to fight when it uses shadow arts

>Smokescreen is annoying because it covers thief pressure on the node. 

Let me address these one at a time. 

 

I would be inclined to agree with this, if not for the following:

> Thief has other weapons besides shortbow. Without shortbow, its mobility is significantly lessened.

> Both glass thief and dodge bot thief were attempted in the past, with both playstyles meeting similar levels (or greater levels) of disapproval. D/P , Staff, Sword Pistol and Acrobatics as a whole were nerfed because of this. If you want one of the above instead of the stealth spam, fine; but both of those are arguably less counterable and will also generate whine and you will have to either rework or buff the articles above to facilitate that playstyle. Mighty touched on the fact that "sure you could throw a ranger at it, but it doesn't provide team value". To which I say: Okay? working as intended. There are options out there for people to nuke thieves whether they are stealthed or not, but people want to be able to do both that -and- teamfight with no loss, while lamenting thieves minding their business decapping/+1ing. Take a step back and think about what you're asking for. If I'm not sane in my reasoning here, please correct me.

Further, if you feel thieves should be either glass or a dodge bot [explicitly because of shortbow] Then the weapon sets and dual skills that make thief less mobile should get more mitigation. That way thieves trying other weapon sets don't get shafted in this never-ending crusade to balance around shortbow mobility. 
 

Isn't this the whole point of the kitten class? It feels like people are upset that they're getting mindgamed. That tension about whether you should make a call for whether thief is still around or back at mid is part of the result of a good thief presence on sidenode. If you guess right, the thief is wasting time doing nothing. If you guess wrong, -you- are wasting time doing nothing. If you want something different, see above.

Also what thief just silently hangs around node without providing some kind of visual or audio indication in full stealth? You can hear when black powder gets dropped, you can see smokescreen dropped for linking. If a thief is silently hanging around at sidenode for long enough that you need to gamble on whether the thief is there or not, the thief is likely hanging out in some corner you cant see, and nerfing SA wont even fix that interaction. I respect Helseth's ability on mesmer, but I don't understand the rationale here.

I am inclined to agree that shadow arts does carry players that would probably crash and burn on another traitline. I also don't particularly enjoy the dipping in and out of stealth playstyle, but I have also watched these forums systematically argue for the nerfing of s/d, acro. D/P, S/P, Staff, Deadly Arts, vigor in general, shortbow, P/D, and possibly every iteration of condi thief. The thieves have to play something, something has to work. Because if the thieves can't play anything that core necro bunker meta everyone is enjoying is going to get several times more boring and stagnant with nobody to flip nodes. Itll be just like the ESports sprint we had where the meta was first team to run to the nodes and set up a guardian won. 

As for whether you personally have issue distinguishing between good or bad thieves, I have no reason to argue for or against any action relating to that. Good thieves do their job in conquest. I don't think displaying their caliber should really be a part of their build, that kind of tends to radiate from people that have it anyway.

I'd say this is subjective, but even if it isn't, good. As I mentioned elsewhere, nobody like fighting your sic'em soulbeast/DH/FT Scrapper/ Holo / necro/ insert other class here either. That's no excuse to lobby for butchering of traitlines, people have been pushed to run those because the other options are not serviceable. 

Fair. The radius should be reduced, and perhaps the blind pulse should be reduced as well. I wouldn't mind if this went back to a line. Yes, thieves need the option to have staying power if they trait for it, but that staying power should probably have some counterplay/not occupy the whole node.



Tl'dr: If you wanna nerf shadow arts, fine. Fix the other mitigation traitlines and thief damage in general like you claim you want. 

It's actually amazing how you just stretched out "giv buffs for nerfz sadof artz!". Teef doesn't need any compensations for nerfing clearly broken and unbalanced mechanics, get real. It has so many tools outside of shadow arts, yet people willingly choose it because it's the most cheesy one allowing for kitten load of mistakes. Evade teef will be also busted, but to a tiny lesser extent than stealth lover.

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1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

It's actually amazing how you just stretched out "giv buffs for nerfz sadof artz!". Teef doesn't need any compensations for nerfing clearly broken and unbalanced mechanics, get real. It has so many tools outside of shadow arts, yet people willingly choose it because it's the most cheesy one allowing for kitten load of mistakes. Evade teef will be also busted, but to a tiny lesser extent than stealth lover.

Translation: "I don't know anything about thief, but one beat me in PvP once, so obviously it needs to be nerfed harder."

This is why none of these "nerf teef" threads should ever be taken seriously. As Azure said in a round about way, ya'll are constantly screaming for nerfs to literally every aspect of thief. Ya'll claim to want balance, but then say stuff like this, and expect to be taken seriously. ( 🤣 )

Stop lying and just be honest like the OP. You don't want to balance the class, you want to delete it. 🙂

Edited by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047
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2 hours ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

Translation: "I don't know anything about thief, but one beat me in PvP once, so obviously it needs to be nerfed harder."

This is why none of these "nerf teef" threads should ever be taken seriously. As Azure said in a round about way, ya'll are constantly screaming for nerfs to literally every aspect of thief. Ya'll claim to want balance, but then say stuff like this, and expect to be taken seriously. ( 🤣 )

Stop lying and just be honest like the OP. You don't want to balance the class, you want to delete it. 🙂

If it's broken beyond fixes, then yes, I want that class/elite spec/whatever to be removed from the game entirely and remade from scratch.
The balance of the game should be something that everyone should strive for, yet what we mostly see is people defending the most broken things in the game for their own merits, in this case busted stealth on a class with highest possible mobility in the entire game.

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59 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

If it's broken beyond fixes, then yes, I want that class/elite spec/whatever to be removed from the game entirely and remade from scratch.
The balance of the game should be something that everyone should strive for, yet what we mostly see is people defending the most broken things in the game for their own merits, in this case busted stealth on a class with highest possible mobility in the entire game.

So broken in fact, that it's one of the least played classes in the game. People like you make the Thief class sound like some omnipotent invisible deity that can indiscriminately smite people from anywhere, at any moment. By the way, I don't think you understand how "balance" works.

Shadow Arts is overperforming.

Acrobatics is underperforming.

You want to nerf Shadow Arts without any compensation.

Stop pretending to care about balance. The only thing you're interested in, is yourself. 

Edit: Oh and btw, I don't main Thief in PvP. I mostly play either Mesmer or Necro. 🙂

Edited by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047
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24 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

So broken in fact, that it's one of the least played classes in the game. People like you make the Thief class sound like some omnipotent invisible deity that can indiscriminately smite people from anywhere, at any moment. By the way, I don't think you understand how "balance" works.

Shadow Arts is overperforming.

Acrobatics is underperforming.

You want to nerf Shadow Arts without any compensation.

Stop pretending to care about balance. The only thing you're interested in, is yourself. 

Edit: Oh and btw, I don't main Thief in PvP. I mostly play either Mesmer or Necro. 🙂

nerf necro too with no compensation pls

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15 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

nerf necro too with no compensation pls

Scourge could definitely use some nerfs, you won't hear me disagree on that. Idk about core Necro. If we're talking about Minionmancer, there's not a lot they can do w/ Minions outside of making them useless like turrets. Although maybe re-introducing the natural health degeneration minions had in GW1. Minions shouldn't be on the field permanently.

Edited by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047
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7 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

Scourge could definitely use some nerfs, you won't hear me disagree on that. Idk about core Necro. If we're talking about Minionmancer, there's not a lot they can do w/ Minions outside of making them useless like turrets. Although maybe re-introducing the natural health degeneration minions had in GW1. Minions shouldn't be on the field permanently.

Core necro is stronger than scourge. The MAT meta has been 2 core necros for months now.

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