Ideas for Ele Trade-off

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

The elite spec could use lingering attunement though it was more or less just a trade off for not having arcain line alone.

 

Sure, but they could make it a tradeoff by turning it into a core elementalist mechanic that is lost when you take an elite specialisation.

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Sure, but they could make it a tradeoff by turning it into a core elementalist mechanic that is lost when you take an elite specialisation.

There a lot of things they could of done! I think a pemra effect would be nice to see for core ele. As an core ele your always all atuments but you can only use the skills of one atument at one given time.

[greedywholesome.9081]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:24 AM, Jski.6180 said:

I think the ideal is to give the core ele something that the elite spec do not have witch right now the elite spec are just an core ele +. Asking for a trade off can be (if they class has nothing to start with) a means of buffing.

 

A tradeoff usually means giving something in exchange for "X" but I agree with you wholeheartedly in that we need a buff....coz we are out of stuff to trade... 

 

Someone tryharded to carry his team in pvp and got ridiculed despite getting all 6 medals for playing core ele. It's on the pvp subforum. 

[greedywholesome.9081]

On 1/22/2022 at 3:16 AM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

...and here comes the troll out of the blue blasting trash out without knowing what's going on.

You know how out of depth you are right now?

Not to say something worse.

The mere fact that @Jski.6180 and I even bothered to reply to you.... 

Oh dear, oh dear... where do all these people come from?

Read the entire thread before you start blasting things out.

Also read ANet's post on Trade-Offs.

... and chill out. You sound nervous and hyperventilating by tbe way you type.

We don't want you to pass out due to the topic.

Consult your doctor before frequenting forums.

 

Back on topic.

This is an idea for ANet due to the fact that they promised trade offs for classes that otherwise are missing aspects of the builds that Elite Specs have, and core don't.

Elementalist being one of them.

 

Do everyone a favour and refrain from replying, if you don't know what the topic is in its entirety, or have nothing constructive to type.

In case you don't know, it is against the forum rules.

Thank you. 

 

Im not a troll. I have tremendous love and respect for this class and the good people that have invested time playing it. 

[bluberblasen.9684]

I like the lingering idea.

My lazy idea for core ele:

50 all stats

[Puck.3697]

Imho here's the actual issue. 

Core elementalist would require a addition to create a trade off. 

If they gave elementalist a F5 for attunement. Eles balancing would once again be decided over even more buttons requiring nerfs to the current attunements to balance out what arcane gives core. 

More buttons = the lower effect each button individually does. 

Adding +50 to every stat. This is a weaker version of what catalyst is getting in EoD. 

By adding this your only creating a trade off for tempest and weaver and not for catalyst. 

Adding a boon with a F5, once again recreating catalyst so no trade off again. 

So let's look at things which wouldn't cause the above problems to exist. 

- each elementalist elite loses 1 attunement type 

This would make trait lines stop functioning completely cancelling diversity. 

- each elementalist elite changes the attunements it gets. 

This would require every elite to change out traitlines to new traitlines which would quadruple the work load of both developing and balancing. 

- weapon swap. 

This would make elementalist have so many buttons that core weapon choices would see drastic nerfs ontop of this make decent results have such a high complexity and length of rotations that Ur individual ability uses would effectively feel like it's doing nothing. 

Anet can say they want to find a trade off for ele continously and have done on this topic. But the truth of the matter is, by elementalist design it's not realistically possible. 

They could give core elementalist unique alacrity opportunity. But it's then competing with renegade which it simply isn't going to win against. 

The investment required to get core elementalist to have a a trade off would actually be so ludicrous in alot of ideas that it'd either make its elites redundant or be so weak it won't be worth thinking about. 

The only way their getting a elite into this. Is removing attunements realistically and I'm not sure that's a direction we want to realistically push for 

I don't mean to sound so gloom on the subject and this is no way attempting to justify the design. 

But elementalist kits come so packed by nature it's hard to realistically do. 

Every weapon has condi, strike, boon, healing, protection access. 

Every elite has Condi, strike, boon, heal, protection access. 

The company has no way to balance 1 specc without the nerfs applying to the other speccs. Because how conjoined the elementalists mechanics are. 

Which means they have no method of balancing what they're given withojt directly nerfing exactly what they're given. So elementalist would reach a point where their new mechanic would get nerfed everytime ele overperformed. 

Which creates the position of "the trade off doesn't matter" which is basically where evedy proffession is now.

Core, tempest and weaver are too alike to seperately balance. The mechanics too tied to the traitlines to completely change without just creating problems and the trade off would have to be so extreme the work load required would never be done 

Espically for the f2p model of elementalist. 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Give them like an f5 glyph or a passive f5 that you choose one of the elements and you get stat bonuses from whichever one you pick, sorta giving core the concept of being a pyromancer, hydromancer, aeromancer, or geomancer or whatever. Probably wouldn't even make much of a difference but it would be something. 

[Puck.3697]

10 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Give them like an f5 glyph or a passive f5 that you choose one of the elements and you get stat bonuses from whichever one you pick, sorta giving core the concept of being a pyromancer, hydromancer, aeromancer, or geomancer or whatever. Probably wouldn't even make much of a difference but it would be something. 

Problem is the attunements will get nerfed to balance this out. 

Anet have made it clear they have no intention in increasing elementalists DPS realistically. 

It'd have to be complex to work. 

What if core ele loses fire attunement to gain arcane attunement. This would shape core ele to be more power damage driven then both weaver tempest and catalyst. 

And arcane exists in traitlines to modify seperately.

This might tunnel the speccs into specific pidgeon holes tho 

Core - power

Tempest - healer

Weaver - Condi.

But I guess then we on the argument of what we want more

Diversity or trade offs 

Then again when has trade offs mattered? We all know this trade offs will be neutered by core proffession nerfs to balance these new elites 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[The Boz.2038]

Crazy mad idea: each elementalist trait line's minor adept slot gets a "big" and a "small" bump to two stats. The big bumps are +120, and are unique (as in, no other element has it as either big or small). Small bumps are +80, and could be shared.

So:
Air - 120 Ferocity, yay! Also 80 Precision, yay!
Earth - 120 Expertise! Sweet! 80 Toughness! Nice!
Fire - 120 Power! 80 Condition Damage! Whee!
Water - 120 Healing Power, 80 Vitality! Woot!
Arcane - 120 Concentration! 80 Precision! Cool!

There. Especs don't get this. Core gets three of this. So 400-600 absolutely free stats, given out to compensate for the "low health low armor lol" combo of light scholar. Yes, all other "free stats" traits get yeeted and changed into something else. Signets stay as is.

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

There. Especs don't get this. Core gets three of this. So 400-600 absolutely free stats, given out to compensate for the "low health low armor lol" combo of light scholar. Yes, all other "free stats" traits get yeeted and changed into something else. Signets stay as is.

the problem is. u know if this Replaces any elite builds in every game mode they'll act.

We see this everytime acore build Starts to look usuable over a Elite realistically.

Berserker wasnt good in PvP So people were using Core, Magically Spellbreaker Is the one Specc built entirely from a pvP Point of view among a whole list of PvE speccs.

Core rangers Risen during PoF and now untamed again is Magically the only specc built entirely from a PvP Point of view while most completely ignore it.

when has Anet ever made a Core Proffessions trade off mechanic actually worth a kitten balance wise?, we see with EoDs Elites the Trade offs are more "Severe". but we know they wont be by launch.

Cmc even during the preview of Warrior was slightly going back on his "loss of optional Weapon swap" in trade for a 3rd weapon swap. if the trade offs work out in the cores favor. we know the Elites will be power crept til its a Non-beneficial for the core specc

i think the only 2 that go against this currently is Core Necromancer and Core Support guard, but it wouldnt suprise me if these 2 get nuked in the Balance Wave thats susposed to happen shortly after EoD launch.

 

[Tescao.3042]

32 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Problem is the attunements will get nerfed to balance this out. 

Anet have made it clear they have no intention in increasing elementalists DPS realistically. 

It'd have to be complex to work. 

What if core ele loses fire attunement to gain arcane attunement. This would shape core ele to be more power damage driven then both weaver tempest and catalyst. 

And arcane exists in traitlines to modify seperately.

This might tunnel the speccs into specific pidgeon holes tho 

Core - power

Tempest - healer

Weaver - Condi.

But I guess then we on the argument of what we want more

Diversity or trade offs 

Then again when has trade offs mattered? We all know this trade offs will be neutered by core proffession nerfs to balance these new elites 

Therefore, I wrote about Arcane as a hidden element in another topic. Core ele could have a deeper connection to arcane magic.

Edited January 25, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Puck.3697]

Just now, DomHemingway.8436 said:

Therefore, I wrote about Arcan as a hidden element in another topic. Core ele could have a deeper connection to arcane magic.

how would u depict that tho in game as something for core?

[Tescao.3042]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

how would u depict that tho in game as something for core?

Maybe after you pass each element you get to the hidden element (arcane), after using the skills of the hidden element, the cycle repeats.

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

Maybe after you pass each element you get to the hidden element (arcane), after using the skills of the hidden element, the cycle repeats.

 

think i've misunderstood what u mean here.

So u mean if i go from Water, i go into Arcane then Fire? as in Arcane becoming a Seperate ability pool?

if this is what u mean, It'd require Nerfing to every attunement in it.

More buttons = the Less power each ability can actually be. hard nerfing 4 attunements to fit this in would be a Drastic nerf to all Elementalists builds right now? Are we sure we want to see Ele get Weaker in its current state?

Remember this

Any trade off u implement into Core. Will Require both tempest weaver and catalyst. to what extent will depend on the size of trade off you Push for. but as Anet are after 0 DPS Increase the trade off would have to be balanced against via other Elementalists Parts, Which would directly nerf everything around it.

This means. potiental nerfs to

DPS, CC, Sustain and Group support.such nerfs could potiental hamstring the Proffession for the next expansion and we'll end up in a Worse position then we already are for it.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[The Boz.2038]

Jesus Christ no please stop and don't. Elementalist doesn't need more buttons to press, more attunements to swap into. Especially if they get them by some super specific up down up down left right left right B A start convolutions.

[Tescao.3042]

18 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

think i've misunderstood what u mean here.

So u mean if i go from Water, i go into Arcane then Fire? as in Arcane becoming a Seperate ability pool?

if this is what u mean, It'd require Nerfing to every attunement in it.

More buttons = the Less power each ability can actually be. hard nerfing 4 attunements to fit this in would be a Drastic nerf to all Elementalists builds right now? Are we sure we want to see Ele get Weaker in its current state?

Remember this

Any trade off u implement into Core. Will Require both tempest weaver and catalyst. to what extent will depend on the size of trade off you Push for. but as Anet are after 0 DPS Increase the trade off would have to be balanced against via other Elementalists Parts, Which would directly nerf everything around it.

This means. potiental nerfs to

DPS, CC, Sustain and Group support.such nerfs could potiental hamstring the Proffession for the next expansion and we'll end up in a Worse position then we already are for it.

 

You will be able to get to the hidden arcana element only if you pass all four elements in a certain order.

[Downstate.4697]

Core doesnt need something extra; it needs buffs. They need to gut the overloaded dual skills on weaver and give the damage/sustain back to core. They need better healing coeffiecients and better damage coeffiecients.

For pvp they need more versatility in stat choices. Introducing 2 jewel slots to go with amulets would be great.  

Updating weapons would do a lot for core as well. More damage and faster animations would go a long way.

 

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Jesus Christ no please stop and don't. Elementalist doesn't need more buttons to press, more attunements to swap into. Especially if they get them by some super specific up down up down left right left right B A start convolutions.

tbh. our attunement systems cost enough Power per click as it is so its unlikely Anet would go for such a feature. more abilities naturally mean each ability has to be nerfed, otherwise Elementalist would become overpowered if its button presses equaled another proffession with less abilities.

If we saw Arcane Implementation the likelyhood is.

each Ability we use would fill a Bar, once that bar reachs a breakpoint we could Use it to cast a Arcane Nuke of Damage. the abilities potency would depend on which break point your at.

the issue would reroute to my inital statement however.. all 4 attunements would be nerfed to balance the additional Damage coming into the build which would directly hit all 3 elite speccs, and we are already in a Position where elementalist isnt considered great. so imagine if we dropped to a 36k DPS Specc.

Elites would get eventually buffed to bring back some popularity when the specc dies, Putting us back at Square 1, where Core has something the Elites dont. but its Been hard nerfed multiple times tothe point its irrelevent.

[Puck.3697]

13 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

You will be able to get to the hidden arcana element only if you pass all four elements in a certain order.

would still likely Punch a nerf into itself or all 4 attunements.

Its standardized this way.

If u have 24 buttons. Each button must do less then 12 buttons so ur 24 buttons are equal in Potiental to their 12 buttons. thus is balancing a MMORPG.

if u increase that to 29 buttons. Each button must do even Less to Equate toa 12 button rotation.

Which means every attunement ability would have to be individually weakened to neuter the DPS Increase caused by the additional 5 abilities. that includes everything.

So if arcane gives you a Evade. the other Evades accessible to core must be Nerfed.

If Arcane gives u a Heal the other heals Core can access must be Nerfed

Mobility. the mobility core can access must also be nerfed.

the concept of a Trade off isnt susposed to be a DPS Loss or Gain. its Susposed to open up another playstyle option for the proffession, which means any DPS Increase will be neutered in the same patch which means either nerfing Arcane Repeatively or Nerfing the 4 attunements.

13 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Core doesnt need something extra; it needs buffs. They need to gut the overloaded dual skills on weaver and give the damage/sustain back to core. They need better healing coeffiecients and better damage coeffiecients.

For pvp they need more versatility in stat choices. Introducing 2 jewel slots to go with amulets would be great.  

Updating weapons would do a lot for core as well. More damage and faster animations would go a long way.

but this is the stand rule of every elite on the market right now.

All tthe core Speccs do Less DPS, have less boon uptime and Less of everything else compared to their elite counterparts. thats because Elites are the selling point of the expansion so permanantly require to be above Cores for the purpose of Sales.

with this concept. your likely looking at Pushing Elementalist down to a 34k DPS Specc, doing this u make the Elementalist Entirely unplayable instead of only core. and also introducing further balancing factors for every other proffession as it could break the game in a Different dynamic.

im NGL regardless of what Proffession you play.

the Elites are Stronger then Core. If thats a correct decision is highly opinonated and plenty disagree to which side is the correct path. that much will always stand true.

The issue is Core Ele has a lack of a trade off to stack ontop of this meaning core elementalist which holds it even further back.

your saying gut mechanics.. but yet we can see the Exact reason EoD is hated on has no hype and people actively refusing to buy it is because the mechanics arent prominent enough, your proclaiming to spread one of EoDs Downfall in the communitys eye to other proffessions. u'd risk causing a mass Walk out with such a movement.

Playing Core Ele Statistically for every expansion launch because the Elites bring nothing Will create a very stale game. when said game Releases no new races and no new proffessions.

the trade off design is one of the most hated things bny ALOT of players im afraid and it isnt all that popular. because if u feel like ur new speccs Weaker, it feels bad to play, its easy to say "i like trade offs". til they actually happen and something like being a core ele for 9 years because of the meta becomes a reality.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Tescao.3042]

Even if you don't hit Arcane with a certain rotation, there's no harm done.Why this is so, so that adding such a new feature, does not greatly throw the balance out of balance. This suggestion was simply to keep the feature of Ele as a whole.

Edited January 25, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

Even if you don't hit Arcane with a certain rotation, there's no harm done.Why this is so, so that adding such a new feature, does not greatly throw the balance out of balance.

but it does if arcane works to be a DPS Increase because it'll become aaprt of the rotation to activate it.

if Arcane doesnt work to be a DPS Increase it'll be ignored and people wont use it.

its Required that arcane would be of benefit otherwise its worthless trade off to begin with .

[Tescao.3042]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but it does if arcane works to be a DPS Increase because it'll become aaprt of the rotation to activate it.

if Arcane doesnt work to be a DPS Increase it'll be ignored and people wont use it.

its Required that arcane would be of benefit otherwise its worthless trade off to begin with .

I Agreed, this will require a wise setup. With any new changes, a rebalancing is needed.

Edited January 25, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

I Agreed, this will require a wise setup. With any new changes, a rebalancing is needed.

the problem would occur to how much of a rebalancing would affect weaver tempest and cataylst.

you dont want to kill your only competitive speccs to be pushed to a build which does Even less DPS.

currently Tempest is Without a role due to the lack of need for pure Healers / Defensive support, and Weave ris without a Role due to the lack of Need for a Pure DPS that brings 0 utility.

So if u end up nerfing tempest and Weaver these 2 speccs will become even less viable in player eyes. Core ele will never be the next 38k DPS Specc option for us. so ur neutering a proffession with a change like this if too large

Simultaniously if it isnt Large, the trade off may aswell not exist.

why its simple:

Because its the ONLY thing core could be balanced on seperately entirely. every other change directly buffs all elite speccs, so to get Core in line with weaver

Core Ele would need to do 38.5k DPS. it currently is what? 28k?

so u need to add 10.5k DPS to it via a Arcane Attunement. without breaking Core to the point the other attunements need nerfing to balance it.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Tescao.3042]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

the problem would occur to how much of a rebalancing would affect weaver tempest and cataylst.

you dont want to kill your only competitive speccs to be pushed to a build which does Even less DPS.

currently Tempest is Without a role due to the lack of need for pure Healers / Defensive support, and Weave ris without a Role due to the lack of Need for a Pure DPS that brings 0 utility.

So if u end up nerfing tempest and Weaver these 2 speccs will become even less viable in player eyes. Core ele will never be the next 38k DPS Specc option for us. so ur neutering a proffession with a change like this if too large

Simultaniously if it isnt Large, the trade off may aswell not exist.

why its simple:

Because its the ONLY thing core could be balanced on seperately entirely. every other change directly buffs all elite speccs, so to get Core in line with weaver

Core Ele would need to do 38.5k DPS. it currently is what? 28k?

so u need to add 10.5k DPS to it via a Arcane Attunement. without breaking Core to the point the other attunements need nerfing to balance it.

I think that these are already Mind games, it is very difficult to see the chain of events. Logic can only work with what it knows, unlike intuition. Most likely this addition will not be, so we will not know how it could be in the eyes of logic.

[Puck.3697]

14 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

I think that these are already Mind games, it is very difficult to see the chain of events. Logic can only work with what it knows, unlike intuition. Most likely this addition will not be, so we will not know how it could be in the eyes of logic.

the easiest fix to elementalist. or atleast the secure one would be

Every elite brings its own Attunements. but anet wouldhave to put in serious development to link Traits to those new attunements everytime.

thus u balance attunements individually rather then across the board, hwoever anet would never do this as Elementalist would become a absolute Balancing hell.

outside of this... fixs would eventually be irrelevent by the balance waves after.

Anet will always want Elites to be superior to Core, for the purposes of selling the expansion, People very rarely are gonna pay money to get something they wont use. So they will make Elite options the better options. the question is by what % are core weaker.

We see this with virtuoso as a example where they tried to stray from its orginal design. and its a Mess same with alot of the EoD Specs during betas, they have required a level of power creep to get em functional, the problem is they'll Start nerfing core components to deal with Elites Power levels. to prevent acctually pushing the New Elite below core in performance.

to charge Someone to play a New Specc. to then nerf said Specc below their old specc, would be a Slap in the face to the players realistically.

so what u end up with, is a Rushed Design to try get this all functioning and out there, that ultimately will be shaped by Nerfs, the players realistically net no reward for pushing anet into such large development. so people offer really simple changes I.E Stat boosts. but they just tied that to catalyst so wouldnt rly benefit core that much now.

And while we can say mind games, can you give a example of trade offs being successful in any other proffession? 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125