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Ideas for Ele Trade-off


SoulGuardian.6203

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What if core elementalists thing was it got access to it's elite weapons. But not the elites mechanics. But with 1000 range? 

So hammer and sword became usuable as a ranged weapon for core ele? 

The DPS loss to cater for ranged would be there as the loss of the mechanics will naturally nerfs it DPS ability. 

But it'd atleast be a funzy trade? 

Giving core fresh air 100 range must be pretty good? 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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18 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

Adding F2 for core rev without any trade offs.

But it wasn't successful was it, core revenant isn't a equal or better option to renegade or herald in any game mode. 

A successful trade off would be one that makes core competitive with its elites without requiring either side to be absolutely battered 

If it fails to make the core proffession any better, it's simply not a good enough trade off as it proves it's too weak to actually pull the other 2 back enough to keep on the same league. 

Trade offs design is conceptually ensuring elites are new playstyles and not upgrades. No trade off has managed this. The best one we have is

Core necro to reaper. 

Core ranger to soulbeast. 

Core guardian to firebrand 

But even then it's spvp only in circumstance and required gutting soulbeasts mechanic slightly and nerfing the absolute crap out of scourge to manage same to firebrand. The only reason DH doesn't affect it is because DH fills a very different role. 

What if 

They reworked conjured weapons into a mechanic for core ele? 

So elementalist core would get weapon swap. But it'd be fixed to a conjured weapon you've chosen.

The conjured weapons element which be fixed to the element your in when you swap to it. 

This would put a weapon swap CD on the swap. Ontop of these remove access to other elements during this period of time. Aswell as because elementalist doesn't have weapon swap else where. The CD length of it is entirely balancable to only hit core ele. So they could slap a 15 sec CD locking you into a element for 15 seconds if it was too strong 

Ontop of this it'd be s neat way to make conjured weapons relevant again. And as it's using conjured weapons it wouldn't need rebalancing as it's off limits entirely as it's a mechanic rather then a physical weapon 

So you could have conjured longbow as Ur weapon swap. 

Then swap to it in fire attunement. And rain firey magical arrows down onto the targets. 

Or have greatsword and use it with water to pulse healing to your team upon weapon attacks. 

I mean elementalist could have enough conjured to choose from to likely be a benefit to something. This could open up a ranged build to even improve its odds in WvWvW blobs. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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I think one thing we need to keep in mind here is that any mechanic that core elementalist gets doesn't need to compete with a full elite specialisation on its own. It just needs to be good enough that that, plus a third core traitline, is enough.

So if you're claiming that the lingering attunement benefits are just a weaker equivalent to Catalyst stuff...well, I don't think I agree, but I can kinda see where you're coming from. However, Catalyst is still costing you a full traitline, while the only cost to the lingering attunement effect is that you can't take an elite specialisation. So you're not comparing the lingering effect to Catalyst - you're comparing the lingering effect plus taking the Arcane traitline with the benefits that brings, or Water for extra condi cleanse, or Earth for durability, or Air because you're using a glyph or two and the glyph trait is useful, or whatever it might be. It doesn't NEED to be on the level of an elite specialisation mechanic because it doesn't cost a traitline slot. It just needs to be something that they can get in and adjust if they want to buff core without also giving stronger options to elite specialisations in the process.

Of course, another thing that helps is creating better synergies between core traitlines so that there's more benefit to having three core traitlines - this is a large part of why guardian is possibly the most used core profession despite so many people claiming that its elite specialisations don't have enough of a tradeoff. Problem is, the main source of synergies between elementalist traitlines is stacking aura traits, and two of the elite specialisations have aura traits too...

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I think we forget just how much more weaver and even tempest gets over core ele for just being an elite spec already. There needs to be something for core ele over these soon to be 3 elite spec. I am not sure if another F5 will do what the classes needs nor do i think just simply getting + states will work too.

Much like lingering attunement old effect but all of the time (a much stronger version for sure) would play into a core ele having the ability to trait 3 atument lines where the eleit spec can at best only trate 2 atument lines. So your Air Fire Water ele would have all off its passive dmg + at full effect all of the time giving it a real "dmg boost" that the eleit spec do not have. You could even go Earth Water Arcain to have a strong support effect all of the time with always having soothing mist up (not the best example core ele feels more dps then support aimed).

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Thank you all for participating.

I've read really good ideas.

 

ANet doesn't have to necessarily focus on what already exists in game though.

If you open your mind to new ideas, you can expand from there.

 

They could take other games genres elements and implement them in the system.

For instance, fighting games have cancels, and super cancels.

Example:

You may start the move "Fireball" then you use F5 to cancel that move.

The damage and effects lingers for a few seconds on stand by, which gives you time to use another move.

 

This could be applied to core elementalist.

Say you're casting Meteor Shower.

Press F5 to cancel that cast, but its damage and conditions you'd apply on that skill stands by for a few seconds, in which you have time to cast another spell, say if you switch to water and cast  Frozen Ground...

You'd apply the chilled of that skill, plus the damage and conditions of the other skill.

 

This F5 could be called super cancel, or something similar.

I think this might just work, and would be really good for people who like a challenge at mastering classes.

 

You'd have to time your super cancel in order to make the most of it... and you need to be skillful in order to separate masterful elementalist from complete failure.

 

Most importantly, you don't have to use it if you don't want.

The F5 option would still be there, but not forcefully telling you to use it.

Obviously, some skills cannot be cancelled, as they are almost instant cast.

But the ones that are possible to cancel could ve combined with the next skill you use.

 

I think this would work wonders.

Edited by SoulGuardian.6203
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28 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So... the cancel kinda reminds me of Glyph of Sacrifice/Glyph of Essence from Guild Wars 1, which allowed you to cast a spell instantly (at a cost of either cooldown or energy loss). This was big with skills like Meteor Shower, which took five whole seconds to complete.

Indeed.

 

In this case, the F5 would serve as a cancel cast button, but its damage and effects would linger on stand by for a few seconds, in which would add to the next skill if you cast it within that time frame.

 

This could be used to inflict many conditions and massive damage at once at the cost of being risky for caster.

But the Cancel would be optional however.

 

If you master it though, it could be a tide turner in WvW for instance.

 

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On 1/25/2022 at 3:51 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think one thing we need to keep in mind here is that any mechanic that core elementalist gets doesn't need to compete with a full elite specialisation on its own. It just needs to be good enough that that, plus a third core traitline, is enough

The issue is. They are just enough in actual play. 

Remember raids and strikes only require 15k DPS to manage within raid timers, it isn't the fact they can't clear content. 

Fresh air core ele in a skilled hands can also make some impact in spvp also realistically. 

But being "enough" isn't viable in the community perception, 

On 1/25/2022 at 4:06 PM, Jski.6180 said:

I think we forget just how much more weaver and even tempest gets over core ele for just being an elite spec already. There needs to be something for core ele over these soon to be 3 elite spec. I am not sure if another F5 will do what the classes needs nor do i think just simply getting + states will work too

Tbh this is the case with every proffession and as far as I can tell it's intentional. 

Remember elites drive their profits. Not core, they will prioritize a elite over core because the company cannot afford to run on no income. 

If the elite isn't meta, a upgrade or somewhat value. You don't need to buy a entire expansion. With no level increase, no gear increase and no major mechanic implementation. Elites are all there is to drive the sales. 

We can say open world maps and stuff, but in all honesty plenty could just wait out for a sales period while farming gen1 or gen2 legendaries. 

The only thing that makes EoD wanted today would be elite speccs and new strikes. And knowing we won't get instant strikes kinda takes that off the preorder requirements. 

So yah. They either deliever elites u "can't live without" and ramp the hype up for new stuff to play. Or they lose full price sales to people who will just wait it out. 

Fishing, scriffs, masteries won't grab sales. Elites I'm afraid will. People will hand over money for power. 

Core will never be on par with elites I'm afraid that age ain't coming atleast not any time soon, all they're trying to do is given core speccs unique play really. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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33 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The issue is. They are just enough in actual play. 

Remember raids and strikes only require 15k DPS to manage within raid timers, it isn't the fact they can't clear content. 

Fresh air core ele in a skilled hands can also make some impact in spvp also realistically. 

But being "enough" isn't viable in the community perception, 

Tbh this is the case with every proffession and as far as I can tell it's intentional. 

Remember elites drive their profits. Not core, they will prioritize a elite over core because the company cannot afford to run on no income. 

If the elite isn't meta, a upgrade or somewhat value. You don't need to buy a entire expansion. With no level increase, no gear increase and no major mechanic implementation. Elites are all there is to drive the sales. 

We can say open world maps and stuff, but in all honesty plenty could just wait out for a sales period while farming gen1 or gen2 legendaries. 

The only thing that makes EoD wanted today would be elite speccs and new strikes. And knowing we won't get instant strikes kinda takes that off the preorder requirements. 

So yah. They either deliever elites u "can't live without" and ramp the hype up for new stuff to play. Or they lose full price sales to people who will just wait it out. 

Fishing, scriffs, masteries won't grab sales. Elites I'm afraid will. People will hand over money for power. 

Core will never be on par with elites I'm afraid that age ain't coming atleast not any time soon, all they're trying to do is given core speccs unique play really. 

I think there profit is driven by gem store gems more then elite spec. or we would have a few more expansion (at least elite spec expansion) by now and less gem store items.

So far tempest is missing a + effect out side of a bit more boon duration when at 90% hp and even lower when not. Weaver and catalyses have + effects that add an significant amount to there game play and balancing. Very much moving away from that low hp / low armor class balancing. It puts tempest is a very odd place where it has some of the lowest def skill and the lowest hp/def of the eles out side of core for no good reason. There is something very wrong with the balancing with ele over all vs other classes and with in the ele classes. There is an out right lack of though put into this class so ele has nothing to lose for going its elite spec because anet did not think that far for the class.

Core ele (and maybe tempest) needs SOMETHING to make up for the fact of such low states that weaver and catalyses have.

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24 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

think there profit is driven by gem store gems more then elite spec. or we would have a few more expansion (at least elite spec expansion) by now and less gem store items

No their long term profit is gems. However. As they are owned by NCsoft their expansion sales will have a target given to them. 

They will expansion day 1 sales have to be so high for the follow up check from NCsoft surrounding the success of the expansion launch. 

So not true at all really, remember Anet isn't a independent company. But is owned, they have to meet ncsofts sales requirements or they will take budget cuts / staff cuts and more. 

It's very important EoD reachs sales targets if you are interested in seeing Anet grow and the budget for the games content / balancing grows. 

NCsoft turn up at Anet, and the game sells only 150k expansions. Trust me. You will see things get worse. 

They will want the % of long term players who bought the expansion, the quantity of new players who started, their presales and likely a break down of how many of each bundle they sold for. 

They would then use that information to determine alot of other things. 

EoD sales flunk and game becomes dependent on gems to gain profit. You won't see another expansion after EoD. They will just drain it as long as they can via gems and more onto a new game project. 

Core ele I'm afraid will remain behind tempest is fine as it's defensive support role isn't outdone by any of the other elites. 

Also may I add. 

Due to core game being f2p it will make spvp / WvWvW worse to have them on competing builds. Because we lose the account value. 

Someone can just roll 15 accounts to avoid bans and spam toxicity through spvp and WvWvW.

Edited by Daddy.8125
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4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No their long term profit is gems. However. As they are owned by NCsoft their expansion sales will have a target given to them. 

They will expansion day 1 sales have to be so high for the follow up check from NCsoft surrounding the success of the expansion launch. 

So not true at all really, remember Anet isn't a independent company. But is owned, they have to meet ncsofts sales requirements or they will take budget cuts / staff cuts and more. 

It's very important EoD reachs sales targets if you are interested in seeing Anet grow and the budget for the games content / balancing grows. 

NCsoft turn up at Anet, and the game sells only 150k expansions. Trust me. You will see things get worse. 

They will want the % of long term players who bought the expansion, the quantity of new players who started, their presales and likely a break down of how many of each bundle they sold for. 

They would then use that information to determine alot of other things. 

EoD sales flunk and game becomes dependent on gems to gain profit. You won't see another expansion after EoD. They will just drain it as long as they can via gems and more onto a new game project. 

Core ele I'm afraid will remain behind tempest is fine as it's defensive support role isn't outdone by any of the other elites. 

 

It takes more money and time to make an expansion then just gem store items and your only getting one burst of money vs over time though gem sales.

From the thing i head about anet being comply independent for them may not work well.

Core ele needs something as well as tempest to be such a low hp / def class. There just no good reason for them to have such low base hp and def unless you give them higher power or even healing power looking at tempest (some how weaver and catalyses have higher healing power then tempest its pure madness!)

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On 1/25/2022 at 8:01 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

But it wasn't successful was it, core revenant isn't a equal or better option to renegade or herald in any game mode. 

 

Arcane Echo was a sleight of hand so that they could say that Herald and Renegod had a "tradeoff" so they didn't have to nerf one of their favorite children.
 

Adding in an F5 to core ele that the especs lose is not a bad idea though, its just what goes there?

Here is an idea.
F5: Elemental Prowess No cast time. Has a 12s CD
Grant boons in an area based on your attunement and cast an elemental spell
Fire: Grant 10 stacks of might for 6s in an area. Cast Sunspot.
Water: Grant Regeneration for 6s and cleanse 2 conditions in an area. Cast Healing Ripple.
Earth: Grant Protection for 6s in an area. Cast Earthen Blast.
Air: Grant Fury for 6s in an area. Cast Electric Discharge.

Just ideas. May or may not be powerful enough, but you get the picture.

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1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

It takes more money and time to make an expansion then just gem store items and your only getting one burst of money vs over time though gem sales.

From the thing i head about anet being comply independent for them may not work well.

Core ele needs something as well as tempest to be such a low hp / def class. There just no good reason for them to have such low base hp and def unless you give them higher power or even healing power looking at tempest (some how weaver and catalyses have higher healing power then tempest its pure madness!)

That's the precise reason why NCsoft require a return on the expansion. NCsoft would have had to allow Anet to consume a large amount of money for its development so it's vital the expansion itself is a profit and not a loss. 

And no your correct it wouldn't work well, they didn't partner for fun, they did it for the companies survival, Anet don't have the money themselves to develope so needed money from NCsoft. 

Expansions are a spike sale, but they're a garunteed sale that doesn't depend on holding you to the game to buy gems over time therefore NCSoft will want it. It's NCsoft that gave them the money. 

So they have to return that said money before Anet themselves turn a profit. 

There's no good reason why any of the core speccs are in sorry states and they're all in really bad states.

But the game is less profitable if players lose reason to buy expansion 

The concept they try to hold is simply core is atleast a different playstyle. Or something mechanically changes, which core ele currently fails. 

Alot said about a F5 attunement for arcane. But balancing 29 buttons would make each individual button a nerf which would end up arcane being useless or all attunements getting nerfed. 

I think giving core something along the lines of conjure weapons as a mechanic instead of them being a utility would grant this. 

Let's not pretend like we think by launch untameds trade offs will honestly make it equal to core, or vindicators trade offs equaling it to rev. We know they aren't. We know itd never happen. 

They may not want elites at the same power level as PoF but we won't see them drop to core either 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Arcane Echo was a sleight of hand so that they could say that Herald and Renegod had a "tradeoff" so they didn't have to nerf one of their favorite children

Tbh I think all elite speccs are their favourite children. I mean they will nerf the core of any proffession to protect the elites. 

F5 as a actual button would work likely. But alot want F5 arcane as a physical attunement ime a whole new weapon bar which would likely be too far that F5 maybe abit too alike catalysts new F5 tho haha 

 

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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Arcane Echo was a sleight of hand so that they could say that Herald and Renegod had a "tradeoff" so they didn't have to nerf one of their favorite children.

There's a totally baller way they could make a trade-off for Rev, but I don't think they're that brave.

Make e-spec's legends mandatory. Herald? Glint is bolted firmly to one legend slot. There. Done.

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1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh I think all elite speccs are their favourite children. I mean they will nerf the core of any proffession to protect the elites. 

F5 as a actual button would work likely. But alot want F5 arcane as a physical attunement ime a whole new weapon bar which would likely be too far that F5 maybe abit too alike catalysts new F5 tho haha 

 

Oh that would work too, but that is how many different new skills? Weren't the Arcane utilities supposed to fill that role as well?

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3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Oh that would work too, but that is how many different new skills? Weren't the Arcane utilities supposed to fill that role as well?

Tbh it may work but I'd imagine having to rebalance all the core weapons other attunements damage to fit it in may become a problem trying to balance it all out again. 

Also yeah I think the utilities would be. I kinda hoped to see arcane attunement in some fashion though through a elite but they still haven't haha 

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4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

There's a totally baller way they could make a trade-off for Rev, but I don't think they're that brave.

Make e-spec's legends mandatory. Herald? Glint is bolted firmly to one legend slot. There. Done.

Herald uses glint and renegade uses their stance too in current builds so wouldn't fix anything. Wouldn't even change builds up except renegades spvp specc. 

They won't harm elite speccs with trade offs. If we look through the current elites even of EoD the only ones that are weak are because they clash with their design. Not because of the trade offs. 

Elites are too much of a selling point to bring down in such a way. Also do we really wanna go back and play core speccs? I mean it's going to get dull after time. 

Core speccs are outdated and they feel bland in today's standards. They'd all need overhauls to really bring uptoo today's standards. 

But doing that will just make core speccs feel like elites. So it rly adds uptoo the same thing. 

Playing a D/F core  power or Condi build isn't going to feel that much different rly. We all know just because they make core good again staff won't return. 

EoD is the closest to "balanced with core* we have seen and we all can see by the forums and more, people absolutely hate it... So I will honestly question if they'd go through with the trade offs in all honesty. It's severely unpopular and most don't wanna go back to playing core it would seem by the votes surrounding these new elites. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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