Hammer should be based around 600 range cone AOEs

[scerevisiae.1972]

Not going to mince words, I think beta Hammer is one of the biggest design fails I've seen in any game, ever.   

The 2/3rds melee, 1/3rd short-range doesn't work in any area of the game (except maybe the benchmark golem), but it's particularly useless in my favourite game mode, WVW.

I think hammer would be immensely improved by reworking some of existing skills into 600 ranged versions.

For example, make all of the #5 skills into 600 range cone area-effect skills, similar to warrior hammer #3, or existing hammer fire #2.

This would at least give hammer a theme and some identity, and a ranged skill in every element, something that is sorely lacking in the beta version.  

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[ysnake.3619]

What we all hoped for was to have a pretty cool and fluid range spec (why not a kitten Gunslinger of a sort?) - instead we got another "Battlemage" which is VERY clunky and demanding to play. Elementalist shouldn't deal with "clunky" in its base kit due to complexity of it.

 

At this point, only a mid-expansion rework could potentially save a hammer Elementalist... which still sucks imho.

[Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153]

I think having 2 semi-ranged elements and 2 pure melee is really stupid and feelsbadman so personally I'd be happy with anything that gives me more ranged skills so hammer doesn't feel like just another melee weapon that's competing with sword and dagger.

Cone AOEs would be cool, nice idea.

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, ysnake.3619 said:

What we all hoped for was to have a pretty cool and fluid range spec (why not a kitten Gunslinger of a sort?) - instead we got another "Battlemage" which is VERY clunky and demanding to play. Elementalist shouldn't deal with "clunky" in its base kit due to complexity of it.

 

I'm still not sold on the "new ranged weapon" demand in all honesty. 

I mean let's look at this realistically. 

If we got a new elite with a ranged weapon, the first thing we would do is unequipt that ranged weapon put on dagger / focus and forget it existed. 

Why? Because this is guild wars 2 and it'd be garbage like 98% of the ranged weapons in the game. The game doesn't even support ranged combat in raids/fractals to begin with. 

[Waffles.8673]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Why? Because this is guild wars 2 and it'd be garbage like 98% of the ranged weapons in the game. The game doesn't even support ranged combat in raids/fractals to begin with. 

 

😄

Making Elementalist Handkiters great (again)!

I agree though, I don't get why people hammer on this 'we need a ranged weapon' (pun intended).
Whenever I see a deadeye in SPvP I tell him to play counterstrike, in my opinion GW2 isn't supposed to be a game where you can just sit outside of harm's way and cast your abilities.

On a serious note, I do wish they'd make all hammer autoattacks either ranged or melee, switching attunements and forgetting if I can take 2 steps back or not is kinda frustrating

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Waffles.8673 said:

 

😄

Making Elementalist Handkiters great (again)!

I agree though, I don't get why people hammer on this 'we need a ranged weapon' (pun intended).
Whenever I see a deadeye in SPvP I tell him to play counterstrike, in my opinion GW2 isn't supposed to be a game where you can just sit outside of harm's way and cast your abilities.

On a serious note, I do wish they'd make all hammer autoattacks either ranged or melee, switching attunements and forgetting if I can take 2 steps back or not is kinda frustrating

I would like hammer to just be given 600 across the board ranged defintly. 

Just never understood the demand for a new elite ranged weapon. We can see by staff and sceptar Anet have no intention of making ranged weapons great 

[scerevisiae.1972]

10 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I'm still not sold on the "new ranged weapon" demand in all honesty. 

I mean let's look at this realistically. 

If we got a new elite with a ranged weapon, the first thing we would do is unequipt that ranged weapon put on dagger / focus and forget it existed. 

Why? Because this is guild wars 2 and it'd be garbage like 98% of the ranged weapons in the game. The game doesn't even support ranged combat in raids/fractals to begin with. 

Agree, another "pure ranged" weapon would not be all that. I'm actually OK with hammer as a hybrid weapon but atm it's not, it's a melee weapon with a few ranged skills - fire 1/2/4, air 1/2/5.

Making the #5 skill 600 range cone AOEs (and adding a ranged water #1) shifts the balance to 10 ranged skills, 7 melee.

Edited January 19, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[Zephyrus.9680]

600 range is already a problem for WvW from a light armor class. Particularly the one with the lowest base health.

For the current zerg meta, 1200 range is for long range bombs and 900 is for the big bombs.

A melee/range hybrid is cool on paper but 600 range is functionally closer to melee so I don't expect to see hammer in normal zerg builds and probably not roaming either. The whole set doesn't seem viable for PvP or WvW even at melee. Best case maybe a balance rework changes its up later on. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Zephyrus.9680

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

I don't want 600 range, give us the 1200 range for all 4 elements.

also...

Earth Hammer skill 1 should cause bleeding on skill 1 hits

Lighting Hammer skill 1 should do piercing on skill 1 hits

 

otherwise the class remains a joke.

 

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:03 AM, Zephyrus.9680 said:

600 range is already a problem for WvW from a light armor class. Particularly the one with the lowest base health.

For the current zerg meta, 1200 range is for long range bombs and 900 is for the big bombs.

A melee/range hybrid is cool on paper but 600 range is functionally closer to melee so I don't expect to see hammer in normal zerg builds and probably not roaming either. The whole set doesn't seem viable for PvP or WvW even at melee. Best case maybe a balance rework changes its up later on. 

yeah that's the thing. if you were going to make a melee/600-ranged light armour class, don't you think you would give a lot of access to mobility skills and/or superspeed and/or a channelled block nd/or shadowstep in/out?  hammer got none of those things. 

 

[brandies.8673]

Hammer should definitely have had 600 range as its "base range" with a small number (3-4) melee skills and maybe 1-2 900 range skills.

I don't get the #3 skills, they don't fit the weapon at all, just some gimmick. It actually holds the weapon back as those 4 skills are useless if you are trying to play at 600 range and even in melee range they feel very ineffectual.

Cone area-effect skills for each element would be a good start but I'd want to see all 4 elements with a 600 range auto-attack as well. It feels really bad to switch Fire/Air -> Earth/Water while at 600 range and not be able to do anything. Did I mention no superspeed or swiftness? 

What a horrible weapon.

 

[Einlanzer.1627]

The fundamental problem is that Elementalists need to have ranged flexibility built into the majority of their weapons, because a.) they are the squishiest class in the game, and b.) they don't have weapon swap, so they are range-locked based on their single equipped weapon. At the end of the day, "range flexible" means long-range capable. It's not just a thematic preference for mages as spellslingers, it's also a mechanical need driven by the class's base design.  

Having both dagger and sword be fairly melee-locked is already questionable, especially given they lack sufficient utility to make elementalist feel natural to play in melee, but I was excited about the Sword/Weaver theme enough that I didn't complain about it. But, adding a third weapon that is mostly melee to their new elite spec was just an atrocious idea with an equally atrocious exuection. 

I wasn't opposed to hammer initially because I assumed they'd do something more like the Revenant's hammer - make it a hard-hitting, non-support oriented long range weapon that would complement the more support-oriented staff. 

I literally went slack-jawed and shook my head in disbelief when they announced it would be melee, and I still think it's one of the biggest ball drops of all time (ranking up there with abandoning dungeons years ago instead of committing to improving them and not releasing land spears with Path of Fire.) Like, so bad that I want to know who was responsible for the decision, because that person is both severely out of touch with players and lacking basic comprehension of the game's mechanics. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Einlanzer.1627

[Downstate.4697]

For pvp the things that need to change are:

Tripe sear: higher damage

Molten end: higher damage on par with fire grab.

Rain of blows: swap places with cleansing typoon and double its damage.

Crashing font: heal regardless of a hit and gain additional healing for hitting enemies.

Cleansing typoon: swap cooldowns and places with rain of blows. This is the worst 5 skill on all ele weapons.

Hurricane of Pain: whirl finisher and a 2s animation down from 3s.

Shock blast: radius increased to 240 from 180. Cooldown reduced to 20s from 25s.

Immutable stone: duration block of 2s instead of 1 hit.

Ground pound: double its base damage.

[fuzzyp.6295]

600 Range Cones could be fun if they reworked the three skill, although if the cones on Dagger are any record for how it would play, you'd probably either be whiffing about 50% of your damage or missing the entirely.  It's a much more interesting take on the weapon than just making it pure range though!

8 hours ago, brandies.8673 said:

It feels really bad to switch Fire/Air -> Earth/Water while at 600 range and not be able to do anything. Did I mention no superspeed or swiftness? 

Crashing Font is a 600 range leap and Water is much more offensive than previous times. This is just an issue of relearning our rotation with Catalyst, if you need to get into melee range you don't swap into Earth, you swap to Water and Leap.

If you're running Arcane you will have plenty of swiftness with swapping to Air plus blasting the Lightening Field on Jade Sphere will give plenty of Swiftness. You also get Superspeed with Invigorating Air or just by running Air in general.

[Ragnarox.9601]

at least its better than willybender :D so its not worst spec :D

[Jski.6180]

I was hoping it was going to be a cone effect wepon with stronger hit at 0-300 and a weaker hit at 301-900. That and a new combo type "cone" where you pick up effects from fields and fire the effect in a cone shape. I was also hoping it was going to be a combo class but one trait dose not make for a combo class so meh.

[Puck.3697]

On 1/23/2022 at 4:28 PM, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

I don't want 600 range, give us the 1200 range for all 4 elements.

also...

Earth Hammer skill 1 should cause bleeding on skill 1 hits

Lighting Hammer skill 1 should do piercing on skill 1 hits

 

otherwise the class remains a joke.

 

They did it's called staff and they still managed to make it a joke 😂😂 

1200 range doesn't mean it wont be a joke. Good design is what will prevent it being a joke, doesn't matter if melee or ranged in that regards. 

If catalyst got launched as a 55k DPS specc who provides 100% uptime on quickness it wouldn't be a joke it would be broken AF.

The problem is we know it won't get launched like that, what will make it a joke is it will get nerfed to a 36k DPS who only provides quickness trying to compete against firebrand 

 

[Doggie.3184]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:37 AM, ysnake.3619 said:

What we all hoped for was to have a pretty cool and fluid range spec (why not a kitten Gunslinger of a sort?) - instead we got another "Battlemage" which is VERY clunky and demanding to play. Elementalist shouldn't deal with "clunky" in its base kit due to complexity of it.

 

At this point, only a mid-expansion rework could potentially save a hammer Elementalist... which still sucks imho.

After seeing the new D&D themed Borderlands game, it makes me wonder why they didn't go with mage rifle too like they did with Spellshot XD

It's just sad that no new classes get a Rifle (or Bow) as they're pretty underused weapons. And I wanted something that was full ranged for once on Ele.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Mik.3401]

I appreciate the fact they tried to make the hammer multi-faceted and dynamic. However, I just find it frustrating to play because at the end you cannot keep bursting at melee or far range you always need to run back and forth.

Also a side note - the skill 3 is a complete mistake in my opinion - if anything it should be a class mechanic (F5 button or F6 given the former is taken for jade orb). Like I never seen a spec which forces you to use certain weapon to activate an espec mechanic. This is not how it was supposed to be.

[The Boz.2038]

38 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

Like I never seen a spec which forces you to use certain weapon to activate an espec mechanic.

Holosmith says hi.

 

[Mik.3401]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Holosmith says hi.

 

Not exactly - you get bonuses from heat on sword but the sword itself does not enable anything

[The Boz.2038]

It enables interactivity with the heat system. Just like ele hammer enables interactivity with the whirly hammery system. Which is separate from the F5 boily welly system, the *actual* e-spec mechanic.

So, comparing the whirly hammery thing to holo heat interaction, methink holo's sword is more instrumental to its e-spec than ele's hammer.

[Sahne.6950]

If i were in charge of the new Elementalist i only see 2 possible options that would make a new,fun, and unique elementalist. All of those ideas are tailored towards player versus player content. Because i feel that this is the area where to designflaws are most present.

I feel that in PvP content Ele just feels SOO limited and is the worst sorcerer/caster class i have ever seen in ANY MMO that i have played... and it was a ton.  It feels...uhm... idk how to explain, but let me try... All the ranged options,which in my books should be the standard version of a elemental caster, are straightup UNPLAYABLE in any plaver versus player content. And the Meele options should be fast paced, highmobility.....  but atm it is just lowmobility bunkerbuilds that are viable...  When you are new to Guildwars and think to yourself: HEY! lets take the mage class, i always liked the casters in other games so maybe give it a shot here too! i cant wait to overwhelm my opponents with strong elemental spells like they tell me in the selection screen!!!! They will be in for a rude awakening. Because what they tell you what ele is and what it really is.. are 2 completly diffent things.

Its not a ranged caster that uses elemental spells... I would describe the current identity of ele as:  a low mobility meele pianist that uses extensive smashing of all your buttons to overwhelm your opponent with excessive barrierspam and primordialstance. Any other strat is simply not viable outside of PvE content anymore.

how to fix it!

option a) The hammer but on steroids! change the 3 skills so they all are a 600-800 Range untargeted teleports forwards, which will daze anything that you pass thru for 1 second and apply effects based on the attunements. you would have a highmobile Elementalist that could utilize the Lightningrodtrait(pls buff LR trait! it is so bad atm :C).   I dont think this would be overtuned, because ele atm outside of starfireroamer is just a complete joke.  Give hammer a identity!  Highmobility-CC maschine! I have this concept from the stamina Sorceres from ESO. They had a similar skill. The class was very squishy,just like the ele is in gw2, but these multiple teleport/CC skills made them really hard to catch. They could just chain 3-4 teleports and create some insane distance with it! This way they could stack in damage a ton and use their mobility as a defensive tool. I would love to see something similar for ele. because atm you have the class with the least hp and light armor, that is a complete sitting duck, because it is lacking mobility so hard. It just doesnt feel right imo. Every Elebuild is low mobilitymeele or just straightup unplayable anymore... This would turn ele into one of the highest mobility classes around! and i think that totally fits the lightarmor/lowhp theme, and would make hammer stand out from the others instead of just being another meele weapon which ele has enough of already.

option b) something like trident, or basicly anything ranged.    High CC  +  High burst skills that have to be aimed with casttime(like phoenix and dragonstooth)  Maybe give it skills that trap people in floating waterbubbles or something to hold them in place for your combo!  A class/weapon that is capable to HardCC to setup some insane 1-2 instaburst combos like we saw on old Freshair. Class will have excelent Burstpotential but will suck outside ofthat... sustained damage? not happening! your caught offguard? DEAD!  BUT....Enemy cant break your CC anymore? THEIR DEAD! this kind of gameplay. Fastpaced high risk high reward. Alot of MMO´s i have played have similar Sorcerer concept like this. They dont have alot of sustained damage, but what they have is multiple HardCCs that last 2-3 seconds that are enough to get in 2 high hitting spells. For example the sorcerer classes in Archeage. It was all about getting the enemy in a Sleep combo and then just straightup onebanging them. Was that overpowered? NOPE! because outside of that they sucked. not much mobility,survivability and almost no sustained damage. But once they had you in a good combo it is GG for you.  I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOMETHING SIMILAR! Builds like this really show the true skills of a player.  I am aware that this would be only cool and usefull in player versus player environments... But i think it is time that we finally get some cool ele gameplay...  For PvE there is already alot of viable builds... but in PvP/WvW it is just Fireweaver... and the occasional Freshair but that is just a shadow of its former self and was a niche pick to begin with.

Unfortunately it is too late by now... we have to wait for gw3 till we see a true Magecaster 😕

Edited February 10, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sifu.9745]

Fire Hammer should be 1200 range.

Air 900 range.

Water anything from 300 to 900 would work.

Earth 130 up to max 240 range with a boost to survivability and/or dmg.

[Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:35 PM, Sifu.9745 said:

Fire Hammer should be 1200 range.

Air 900 range.

Water anything from 300 to 900 would work.

Earth 130 up to max 240 range with a boost to survivability and/or dmg.

Yes. Strong agree.

Hammer never going to be used outside of raids/useless golem benchmarks unless something is done to make it not so melee-based.

I like the 600 range cone AOE idea but SOME skills should be 900+ range as well.