Hammer should be based around 600 range cone AOEs

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:32 AM, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Crashing Font is a 600 range leap and Water is much more offensive than previous times. This is just an issue of relearning our rotation with Catalyst, if you need to get into melee range you don't swap into Earth, you swap to Water and Leap.

If you're running Arcane you will have plenty of swiftness with swapping to Air plus blasting the Lightening Field on Jade Sphere will give plenty of Swiftness. You also get Superspeed with Invigorating Air or just by running Air in general.

Disagree, I think it feels terrible and IMHO terrible design to have 2 melee elements and 2 ranged elements. This leads to a  boring and entirely predictable rotation because you literally have no other skill to use if you swap into water/earth while at range. 

Also you shouldn't have to mandate specific traitlines just to make a weapon playable. This is prima facie bad design. Other examples include the original Arcane traitline, which every Ele took because the class was near-unplayable without it, or Trickery for thief (which every still takes in every build as it feels mandatory).

Swiftness by itself is not sufficient to enable a melee class to function, this is why all mele builds will typically have multiple leaps/gap closers and/or superspeed or else they are just useless.

 

There's really no getting away from the conclusion that Hammer was the weapon that noone wanted, and even if hammer were the first melee weapon for Ele (instead of the third), it would still not be a good weapon. 

[brandies.8673]

1 minute ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

There's really no getting away from the conclusion that Hammer was the weapon that noone wanted, and even if hammer were the first melee weapon for Ele (instead of the third), it would still not be a good weapon. 

Quoting for truth.

[Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153]

1 minute ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

There's really no getting away from the conclusion that Hammer was the weapon that noone wanted, and even if hammer were the first melee weapon for Ele (instead of the third), it would still not be a good weapon. 

QFT

[fuzzyp.6295]

4 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

Disagree, I think it feels terrible and IMHO terrible design to have 2 melee elements and 2 ranged elements. This leads to a  boring and entirely predictable rotation because you literally have no other skill to use if you swap into water/earth while at range.

I disagree, I think a hybrid makes perfect sense for a single weapon class like Elementalist! Part of what has held it back is having only a single range weapon before.

I also think this is still mostly an issue with people not having enough time to learn the weapon. We only had it for less than a week. Of course it won't feel good because you haven't learned it yet lol. The flow of combat for Catalyst will be different than previous Ele specs and that is a good thing. You can't expect a new rotation to feel perfect immediately after having years of basically rotating between either Fire and Air or Fire and Earth exclusively.

Let me ask you, why is swapping into Water/Earth to get into range then back into Air/Fire any less boring or predictable than just standing at range and swapping through two attunements?  Because that has basically how it has been since launch, you rotated between two attunements with water to heal occasionally. Honestly, the fact we actually have a reason to swap into Water for once considering its finally got offensive abilities which is probably the best change coming up with Catalyst.

Swap to water -> Leap, boom, problem solved you're in Melee range. If they move back out, swap to either Fire or Air because one of them would absolutely be off cool down by then 🙂 Like I said, we need to re-learn our  Catalyst rotation. No big deal, the tools are there. Do you not remember how insanely clunky Weaver felt on launch? I'd be hard pressed to say that this rotation is going to be boring.

 

4 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

Also you shouldn't have to mandate specific traitlines just to make a weapon playable. This is prima facie bad design. Other examples include the original Arcane traitline, which every Ele took because the class was near-unplayable without it, or Trickery for thief (which every still takes in every build as it feels mandatory).

I mean, is superspeed really what is going to make this playable? Because, again you have that option  with Invigorating Air.  And so, so much swiftness, even without going into Air because the Lighting Field is going to be the only worthwhile field to drop 90% of the time. In fact you can get Swiftness, Quickness and some Superspeed without even investing into Air or Arcane with Cataylst... is that really not enough?


The issue with Arcane isn't related to Catalyst, thats a design problem all together with the class.

4 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

There's really no getting away from the conclusion that Hammer was the weapon that noone wanted, and even if hammer were the first melee weapon for Ele (instead of the third), it would still not be a good weapon. 

Oh, no you see, I wanted Hammer Still super pumped about it, can not wait. Only thing that would have been better is Mace. Sorry, the Elementalist community isn't a monolith of thought.🙂

Edited February 15, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
removed an snarky comment that added nothing.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I disagree, I think a hybrid makes perfect sense for a single weapon class like Elementalist! Part of what has held it back is having only a single range weapon before.

I also think this is still mostly an issue with people not having enough time to learn the weapon. We only had it for less than a week. Of course it won't feel good because you haven't learned it yet lol. The flow of combat for Catalyst will be different than previous Ele specs and that is a good thing. You can't expect a new rotation to feel perfect immediately after having years of basically rotating between either Fire and Air or Fire and Earth exclusively.

Let me ask you, why is swapping into Water/Earth to get into range then back into Air/Fire any less boring or predictable than just standing at range and swapping through two attunements?  Because that has basically how it has been since launch, you rotated between two attunements with water to heal occasionally. Honestly, the fact we actually have a reason to swap into Water for once considering its finally got offensive abilities which is probably the best change coming up with Catalyst.

Swap to water -> Leap, boom, problem solved you're in Melee range. If they move back out, swap to either Fire or Air because one of them would absolutely be off cool down by then 🙂 Like I said, we need to re-learn our  Catalyst rotation. No big deal, the tools are there. Do you not remember how insanely clunky Weaver felt on launch? I'd be hard pressed to say that this rotation is going to be boring.

 

I mean, is superspeed really what is going to make this playable? Because, again you have that option  with Invigorating Air.  And so, so much swiftness, even without going into Air because the Lighting Field is going to be the only worthwhile field to drop 90% of the time. In fact you can get Swiftness, Quickness and some Superspeed without even investing into Air or Arcane with Cataylst... is that really not enough?


The issue with Arcane isn't related to Catalyst, thats a design problem all together with the class.

Oh, no you see, I wanted Hammer Still super pumped about it, can not wait. Only thing that would have been better is Mace. Sorry, the Elementalist community isn't a monolith of thought.🙂

That's some wild imagination right there. Your arguments are solid, for PvE benchmarking golem at most, PvP and WvW is a joke.
If you've been only using 2 attuments the whole time, I'm pretty sure Elementalist isn't for you then. I've been utilizing all 4 attuments all the kitten time as per protocol, even in PvE to maximize class potential since 2012.
Hammer leaps are not enough, 600 range on some attacks are not enough, defenses are not enough, mobility is not enough, it's still a sitting duck 24/7, it's not about "learning playstyle", there's no playstyle in this in the slightest. If you'll fight against ranger in WvW, you have to cover atleast 1500 range to start your PvE rotations. That's your water leap + LF to get into "range" of fight, but hey, ranger will just use his whoop whoop GS leap and he's again out of your 600 pepe skills.

[fuzzyp.6295]

52 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's some wild imagination right there. Your arguments are solid, for PvE benchmarking golem at most, PvP and WvW is a joke.
If you've been only using 2 attuments the whole time, I'm pretty sure Elementalist isn't for you then. I've been utilizing all 4 attuments all the kitten time as per protocol, even in PvE to maximize class potential since 2012.
Hammer leaps are not enough, 600 range on some attacks are not enough, defenses are not enough, mobility is not enough, it's still a sitting duck 24/7, it's not about "learning playstyle", there's no playstyle in this in the slightest. If you'll fight against ranger in WvW, you have to cover atleast 1500 range to start your PvE rotations. That's your water leap + LF to get into "range" of fight, but hey, ranger will just use his whoop whoop GS leap and he's again out of your 600 pepe skills.

I was referring to PvE with that statement, yes I should have probably specified.

My point is that I'm being told that this new rotation of Melee/Range is somehow way more boring than a typical gameplay style of camping whatever attunement does the most damage. How does that track? How is Hammer any more or less boring than what we've already had? It isn't. It's just a  different flow of combat we're not used too.

In your scenario, you could also drop a Jade Sphere Earth and combo into it so you get a Magentic Aura and follow up with an Immutable Stone for a second Magentic Aura and maybe somore kiting to nuflying the ranger's bow. (EDIT: Oh and rocky loop Whirling Stones blocks projectiles now so you can use that while approching as well I suppose) You'll probably need a LF, but that is just required for any WvW build anyway. Once they've wasted Rapid Fire, they're a joke anyway. Sooo...

Swap to Water, leap in thats 600. If they run away or retreat, Swap to Air, spin around, Wind Storm, there is another 600 gap closer (im sure a wvw vet like yourself have an about face button bound) and now you're within range. And good thing too, Air is 600 range so you have some to play with. Let's also not forget  you also have the 800 range grand finale that you can fire at him at anypoint to make sure you do have some range pressure as you approach.

EDIT: Actually, forget all that. If you're fighting a ranger at 1,500 range, how about you take two steps back and get out of range of them and then leave? 🙂 Make them chase you till you get to a better place to fight 'em with actual cover to kite behind, like would probably be the smart thing to do instead of challenging a Ranger at max distance in an open field.

I nearly exclusively play WvW roaming  (EDIT: well, not exclusively but its where I spent most of my time anyway. PvE in open world and some fractals but really not much anymore lol) and I don't really think Hammer is going to be all that good for WvW. And that's fine, not all weapons need to be great everywhere. I'm happy with Hammering about in PvE 🙂

I'm sorry you don't feel Hammer brings enough to the table. There is stuff I dislike about hammer and your criticisms (as others) are not invalid. But I'm not really here to talk about how you feel about Hammer, I'm here to point out that if you swap to Water at Range, you leap in to get to melee. People are saying you have no options when you swap to Water at range, but thats not true,. We will need to learn that as Catalysts or else we will be swapping to water at the wrong time. It's about learning the weapon we haven't even had a chance to really get our hands on.  It takes time to learn muscle memory and Elementliast is a class that thrives on it.

EDIT: EARTH is another issue, but we have to learn to use Earth in situations like we discussed above (range pressure) or against foes that want to remain in Melee range. Again, learning how to play the class that isn't even released is important. I personally wish Earth had either a leap or, preferably, a pull.

Edited February 15, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
Lot's o edits cause im v. sleepy.

[giblets.6401]

20 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

There's really no getting away from the conclusion that Hammer was the weapon that noone wanted, and even if hammer were the first melee weapon for Ele (instead of the third), it would still not be a good weapon. 

QFT

[scerevisiae.1972]

15 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

if you swap to Water at Range, you leap in to get to melee. People are saying you have no options when you swap to Water at range, but thats not true,.

 

Water #4 is a 20sec CD. you swapped to water for sustain already, water #4 is on CD, and your other attunements are also on CD. now what. likewise earth. you have a single attack block and nothing else.

600 range is a god-awful range at the best of times but to not even have 600 range options or decent sustain/mobility in 50% of the kit is just stupidly bad.

IT's just not going to be used in WVW, i'm not sure why you're even defending it. Feel free to try but you're going to be a free bag to any remotely competent duellist.

Also don't bother zerging with hammer because short range and small, low dmg AOEs.

 

 

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 hour ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

Water #4 is a 20sec CD. you swapped to water for sustain already, water #4 is on CD, and your other attunements are also on CD. now what. likewise earth. you have a single attack block and nothing else.

So basically you're saying that Water, Fire and Air are all on cooldown? Why would you spam through Fire and Air so quickly? Shouldn't one be about ready to go after you swap into Water -> Leap and land a few melee hits as they back off? The cool down is only 9 seconds for attunements (10 if you're not bringing arcane).

This is what I mean by re-learning our rotation, you don't want to have both Fire and Air on full attunement cool down when you need to go into melee because one of two things will happen:

A) The back off, which means you hop into your other ranged attunement to continue your pressure
B) They commit and you can either stay in Water if you need more sustain or swap to Earth for more damage.

Earth is great anti-projectial with its possibility to maintain a magentic aura up for long periods of time, not to mention the weakness from the combo field will reduce any incoming damage to you making anyone who stays around to fight even deal less damage. (EDIT: But yes, one of the complaints I have with Earth is a lack of pull. I'd rather they rework the 3 Skill into being getter ranged abilities for Fire/Air/Water and make Rocky Loop into a short, ~600ish pull)

Also, Water as Sustain, again this is what I mean by learning to play the class. Why is Water the sustain for Cataylst? Do you need condi cleanse: Fire will provide you with a cleanse on an aura. You may not have the detonate, but considering you can basically combo two auras back to back on most attunements, you should have a steady supply of them coming in to keep your condis lose. You may need to suppliment it something like Cleansing Flame? We'll have to see. Plus the new Heal also cures conditions at a rate of 1 per 5 pulses. Considering how slow Hammer is, I don't think Signet of Resto is going to be the way to go if you wanna use it. Plus, you can always just drop a Water Sphere then swap to another attunement to blast it anyway without wasting your leap for a heal.

 

1 hour ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

600 range is a god-awful range at the best of times but to not even have 600 range options or decent sustain/mobility in 50% of the kit is just stupidly bad.

I disagree with this one, but its more of a matter of opinion.

 

1 hour ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

IT's just not going to be used in WVW, i'm not sure why you're even defending it. Feel free to try but you're going to be a free bag to any remotely competent duellist.

Also don't bother zerging with hammer because short range and small, low dmg AOEs.

Well first off, the weapon is gonna be really fun to use regardless of its viablity and that is something I value more than anything else.

Secondly, and I can't believe I'm saying this as a WvW tryhard, there are more game modes than WvW out there! As I've said, not all weapons need to excel in every game mode.

As for why I'm defending it: everyone on these forums seem to have made up their mind about Hammer since before the Beta Tests. We've had a grand total of, what, five days with the weapon and suddenly everyone is an expert on it. Cut it some slack, you can't expect to learn the best ways to use the Hammer in a week. It took Weaver months to get used to Sword and when Tempest came out no one even bothered with Warhorn. Give it time.

EDIT: Also, please don't take my defense of Hammer to be me thinking Hammer is perfect and can do everything. There are things about it I would love to see changed and I hope ANet changes. I would like to see more range added it to as well, just not fully ranged like many are asking. All I'm asking is that people give it more time to learn and experiment with how Hammer works before we declare it as useless.

Edited February 16, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
edit: 10 if youre not bringing arcane I mean.

[scerevisiae.1972]

2 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

So basically you're saying that Water, Fire and Air are all on cooldown? Why would you spam through Fire and Air so quickly? Shouldn't one be about ready to go after you swap into Water -> Leap and land a few melee hits as they back off? The cool down is only 9 seconds for attunements (10 if you're not bringing arcane).

actually attunement CD is 10sec, 8.5 with arcane 😉

but what I meant was, water #4 on CD from a previous usage, swapping into water again at range and not have any skills to use cause you're at 600 range.

Hammer even strong incentivises swapping through attunements cause of the (stupid) #3 skills.

Anyway we can agree to disagree but I think hammer is super badly designed, and good for nothing but static raid bosses and golems.  

[scerevisiae.1972]

2 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

As I've said, not all weapons need to excel in every game mode.

A weapon that is good in only 1 game mode is IMO the prima facie definition of a badly-designed weapon.

Also, I have 8hr+ on hammer from 2x beta weeks. It's not like I didn't give it a good go.

[fuzzyp.6295]

21 minutes ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

A weapon that is good in only 1 game mode is IMO the prima facie definition of a badly-designed weapon.

Also, I have 8hr+ on hammer from 2x beta weeks. It's not like I didn't give it a good go.

I dont doubt that you and many others gave it a lot of time, but 8 hours is nothing compared to literal years on other elementalist weapons. We also only had access to beta content and as any ele can tell you, more than any class we need to mix gear.  We dont know how it will play like that so let's not shut it all down so quickly. Especially given Elemental Empowerment (or w/e stat buffs you by your armor spread cant remember right now)

 

24 minutes ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

but what I meant was, water #4 on CD from a previous usage, swapping into water again at range and not have any skills to use cause you're at 600 range.

Oh ok I gotcha. Well as I mentioned above, another option is an about face Wind Storm as a gap closer.  Thata another 600 you could use then swap to Earth for example. And considering that you have 9 seconds on fire and air CD, I think I shouldnt be difficult to manage your leap for when you need it as long as were smart.

Like you mentioned, the 3 skills are weird and dont really fit Hammer, I agree. They should lose the stat boosts so people dont feel obligated to crazy swap and be buffed to be better projectiles (or pulls, pls Anet ).

 

24 minutes ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

Anyway we can agree to disagree but I think hammer is super badly designed, and good for nothing but static raid bosses and golems.  

That's fair. It's always possible Anet will buff Hammer as time goes on though, so dont lose hope.

Edited February 16, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
Years not days idk why I said days lol

[Infusion.7149]

@fuzzyp.6295 : the only way I see "about face" Wind Storm ever working is if the movement portion is an optional flip skill and it doesn't require facing your target.

Also both are 20 cooldown. It's strictly worse (movement wise) than running daggers in any mode in that sense as dagger mainhand has Burning Speed (12s cooldown in PVE/ 15s in PVP and WVW) as a 600 range movement skill and earthen rush on 18s cooldown. That doesn't even include if you run dagger offhand and gain Ride the Lightning which is 1200 range movement and cuts recharge from 30s to 15s if you hit.

Now if hammer is meant as a low movement weapon then the soft CC ought to be ranged (see Zealot's Embrace / Hammer Shock) or counter ranged so at least you can close the gap easier. Imagine if Ground Pound had 600+ range immob , Rain of Blows applied frost aura to yourself, or if Immutable Stone cripples your attacker.

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The only way I see "about face" Wind Storm ever working is if the movement portion is an optional flip skill and it doesn't require facing your target.

How do you figure? Staff Eles have been using a similar trick with Burning Retreat since launch, so it should work with Wind Storm. The only issue I've seen is the slightly sluggish casting at 1/2 but air has quickness so that helps with the casting time. Bigger issues is wasting a CC. And Wind Storm goes further with a target anyway.

Of course Hammer cant compete with dagger for mobility, that's our best weapon for mobility. I dont think I was trying g to make the case Hammer is some fast. And yes it's a bad movement skill but if you're asking for options on a slow weapon, there it is and can be utilized to chase. But Hammer is slow. No way around it. 

Like you earth suggestions. I agree, I really want Earth to get a pull and it should have more cripple. 

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, fuzzyp.6295 said:

How do you figure? Staff Eles have been using a similar trick with Burning Retreat since launch, so it should work with Wind Storm. The only issue I've seen is the slightly sluggish casting at 1/2 but air has quickness so that helps with the casting time. Bigger issues is wasting a CC. And Wind Storm goes further with a target anyway.

Of course Hammer cant compete with dagger for mobility, that's our best weapon for mobility. I dont think I was trying g to make the case Hammer is some fast. And yes it's a bad movement skill but if you're asking for options on a slow weapon, there it is and can be utilized to chase. But Hammer is slow. No way around it. 

Like you earth suggestions. I agree, I really want Earth to get a pull and it should have more cripple. 

Burning retreat doesn't require a target

[fuzzyp.6295]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Burning retreat doesn't require a target

Neither does Wind Storm?

 

From the last beta: This skill will now stop moving when the player is approximately 600 units away from their target, instead of always moving 600 units backward. This limiting behavior can be avoided by using the skill without a target selected

 

that would mean we go the full 600 if no target right?

Edited February 16, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Neither does Wind Storm?

 

From the last beta: This skill will now stop moving when the player is approximately 600 units away from their target, instead of always moving 600 units backward. This limiting behavior can be avoided by using the skill without a target selected

 

that would mean we go the full 600 if no target right?

Means you lose the CC part, which is why I think that it should be a flip skill. Burning speed has full value even if you use it without a target.

[fuzzyp.6295]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Means you lose the CC part, which is why I think that it should be a flip skill. Burning speed has full value even if you use it without a target.

That's true, that and its casting time are downsides. But if you're looking for options that's a way to get into melee especially for Earth considering Earth has no leap.

Flip effect would be nice.

Also... "full value" of  burning retreats tiny little fire field yeah..... your not technically wrong but...... it ain't 2013, no one is rolling up against a gate for DPS rotations lol. But yes it does suck to have use the skill in a way not intended. But it exists and is an option. That's my point.

Edit: ok I guess it still is technically an evade isnt it? But eeeeehh the stab potentional of cata makes me think you wont run into getting cc'd often. Still I get what you mean. But it's an option for the option-less.

Edited February 16, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:29 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

 It's strictly worse (movement wise) than running daggers in any mode in that sense as dagger mainhand has Burning Speed (12s cooldown in PVE/ 15s in PVP and WVW) as a 600 range movement skill and earthen rush on 18s cooldown. That doesn't even include if you run dagger offhand and gain Ride the Lightning which is 1200 range movement and cuts recharge from 30s to 15s if you hit.

Now if hammer is meant as a low movement weapon then the soft CC ought to be ranged (see Zealot's Embrace / Hammer Shock) or counter ranged so at least you can close the gap easier. Imagine if Ground Pound had 600+ range immob , Rain of Blows applied frost aura to yourself, or if Immutable Stone cripples your attacker.

Yeah that's the thing. Hammer is strictly worse than dagger/dagger _across the board_ for everything. It's not even close:

• D/D has 3x mobility skills (600, 600, 1200), hammer has 1 (600)
• D/D has way better sustain (3 evades, 3 healing skills), hammer has 0 evades, 1 healing skill, 1 block
• D/D has way better AOE (240 radius AOEs vs hammer 180 radius)
• the 6 short-ranged skills hammer has make no real difference cause dagger's mobility is just that much better.
   

Why would you ever play hammer vs anything but a static raid boss or golem or faceroll PVE? Notwithstanding that it's YET ANOTHER MELEE WEAPON it's just flat-out worse than dagger and sword.

Hammer SUCKS

The only way it's ever going to see play and not compete with dagger/sword is if it's reworked into a real 600 range weapon. Hence the thread.

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[Infusion.7149]

In the mode you are talking about  (WVW) making it 600 range across the board still isn't strong enough because in WVW DPS more or less breaks down to melee range or 900+ range. They're better off making the ranged portions 900 range (or even 800 as Grand Finale is currently) with piercing while keeping max DPS in melee (earth can be traited for damage reduction) except for the soft CC (chill/cripple). Notably earth's hammer orb applies bleeding which doesn't make too much sense to me when it could apply cripple and the autoattack could apply bleeding since all earth attacks apply bleeding anyhow.

I.e. DPS berserker has greatsword + longbow, DPS DH has scepter + torch and greatsword or staff, power scourge is fully 900 range, power reaper has axe / greatsword or staff, power herald has sword + hammer so a catalyst needs to match those in terms of how it operates even if not 1200 range. You can't say that reaper or DH are high mobility really.

Hurricane of Pain and Surging Flames are both <10 cooldown so if they had some range and the autoattacks had 900 range as well then it would be semi-servicable outside of melee. Surging Flames closely approximates CoR in function; Hurricane of Pain damage approximates that of symbol of punishment on guardian but has substantially longer cast time. Unlike elementalist scepter they would not have the delayed damage problem.

There isn't a massive payoff for being in melee with hammer currently and just upping it to 600 range wouldn't change that situation unless you make every #2 skill attack do three times the damage by having it a 3 part fan attack similar to Dragon's Claw, the damage numbers aren't that high in competitive modes once you factor in cast times. For example rain of blows could be completely unsplit (its PVE number is on par with Phase Smash), so could Crashing Font or Whirling Stones which has a super obvious animation.

In WVW below 900 range in largescale makes you susceptible to well bombs, any dragonhunters' symbols or sword of justice, axe+focus on reaper, scepter on scourge or harbinger, any axe mainhand power soulbeast, any shortbow renegades. In smallscale you need to add grenades to that incoming damage and shadow shroud. 600 range is vault range on daredevil and earthshaker on spellbreaker is also 600 range. It would need to do amazing damage for it to be a strong weapon as the CC capability is quite poor and worse than running an offhand.

[scerevisiae.1972]

yeah i agree 600 range has its own set of limitations but just having at least a couple more AOE skills (eg: cone AOEs for earth #5, water #1 and maybe fire #5, earth #1) would make a huge difference.

agree that it would still be kinda weak/disavantaged in a lot of situations. But with the above changes and maybe 900 range air #2 I think it might be ok.

I also think the #3 skills are basically useless but I can't see them ever changing those.  

Edited February 18, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[Infusion.7149]

@scerevisiae.1972
Not sure how much PVE you do outside of WVW but looking at animation and art assets Arenanet can just copy from other "skills" it doesn't seem like cones are better than fan attacks as far as balance. Fixed damage cones typically have a delay for balance reasons except for firebrand Tome of Justice cones for some reason which happen to be 600 range cones by the way. (My main content besides WvW includes fractals, daily strike (<5 min), and some raiding. I dread openworld content after doing it a few times.)

A great example of the cone AOEs that do fixed damage you are talking about is the one from Archdiviner in Cliffside/Shattered Observatory fractal which happens to be almost a half circle , Deimos (W4 end boss) in that the cone is moving around it from front to back in a semicircle,  Keep Construct which has 2-3 cones or wedges at once, Soulless Horror which has 4 cones at once, Captain Crowe in Siren's Reef, Twilight Oasis sandbinders which have a sort of cone pattern, Claw of the Fallen (Voice & claw strike) or even the fire keep boss (Champion Terza Bowsahr) or air keep boss (Champion Asai Deftclaw). What normally is most deadly is the air keep boss's "donut" ring which ignores stacks of stability for whatever reason. The cone attack in those cases is usually inconsequential and nobody is afraid of fire keep boss ever since the lava was taken away from the lord's room and replaced with grates. That's why a fan attack similar to Dragon's Claw or Splitblade (even the new harbinger shroud 2) would probably be more effective than a cone as those tend to deal max damage at melee range. Instead of a delay the way it would be kept in check is by having max DPS in melee range.

There's also less iconic minibosses with hammers such as "Knuckles" in Wing 1  (Sabetha add) , First Mate Calix on siren's Reef, Berg in Bandit Trio in Wing 2 as well (with a cone attack that is typically instantly CCed to stop or ignored with aegis/stability). Maybe I'm misunderstanding your goal here.

See

 

Notably the archdiviner , Terza, and Soulless Horror use hammers.

Specifically https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assaulter's_Sledge_of_the_Red_Witch
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cultist_Hammer

Edited February 18, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[scerevisiae.1972]

yeah the thing i was thinking of is warrior hammer #3 - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Shock

 

approx 30 degree, 600 range cone AOE.