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22 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The REAL problem here is that the game doesn't have alot of levers to pull to make 9 classes all meta in 5 man content. You got support/heal/DPS ... and meta spots don't 'share' . 

 

Its pretty much this.

 

Know whats a pretty bangin' healer?  Tempest. 

Is tempest good in fractals as a healer? Sure, if you babysit it with a QFB and renegade.

You can repeat this for every healer you want to play that doesnt have on-demand aegistab. 

 

FB is used because its core skills let it cover what the other healers traded away for 10man offensive boons. And its core is overwhelmingly defensive utility buttons, so your CFB can sacrifice a slot for one of those if they have to.  You also dont have to make sure you're standing in wells for your aegistab or quickness.  

Renegade is used because it has the ability to do multiple things while its alac is ticking, and pressing f4 is easier and safer than ambush staffing.  

Scourge is used because its safe and has "press button, adds go boom". And can also fit in that "this can be a healer if you support it with the other 2 popular builds".

 

The problem with balancing a lot of utility around 10man buffs is that the things that are still designed around covering 5 people are really good at covering 5 people and dont need a full raid for the utility to shine. 

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ad sec scg meta everwhere geting out of hand

You don't get charged by the word or character on the forums, so, complete words might help people understand better.  I'm guessing you're complaining about the Scourge being everywhere and killing yo

Yupp that's a nice dictionary definition you have there. I have one for you too.   Feasible: possible to do easily or conveniently.   Really it comes down to your subjective viewpo

9 hours ago, Herzblut.2864 said:

The playerbase is the main problem and nothing else.

 

It is nearly if not completely impossible to balance all classes to all payers in every content and make them kinda even on the field. 

 

Players saying that ele is not viable in pve like fractals or raids are just memes. 

 

In reality they are just not meant for the class since it takes some serious knowledge about the 60 steps plus rotation to deal serious damage and making small mistakes will lower their damagen by a big chunk in the end. 

 

Scourge on the other hand just dominates because of the torment changes. 

Yes scourge has alot of utility to bring to a group mainly the barriers and if traited the teleport rez but what players forget here is that scourge will never keep up with a good played condi ele or cond dare devil.

 

Most players did never see the top 5% players that can easy pull off 10-15k more dps then the average fractal or raid cm player can and that is surely no scourge.

 

One of the biggest factors is that most players use standart arcdps settings and not single target settings. 

Sure im not first in the list in dps with condi daredevil but with the right settings you can see that single target dps balance isnt that bad actualy and the magic of epidemic dps with standart settings is gone. 

 

Skill resetting in fractals does the rest to the condi meta and melts bosses in seconds while skipping mechanics and forced phasing into next phases. 

 

I agree that some classes have it way easyer then other to get on a good dps value while others get incredibly punished for making 2 mistakes in their rotations but mostly like the sorrows on dark ai in 100 fractal cm could be balanced by making them invulnerable to normal damage and only get affected by cc like the mechanic actualy should be. 

 

Instead of balancing classes all the time in pve anet just need to tweak the mechanics of bosses and mobs in general in endgame content to make them more fun and doesnt favour certain classes to much. 

 

A modefier for powered and condition dmg that lowers one by 50% on certain mobs would change everything and make players not just camp one damage type for 90% of the content. 

Assuming all targets need to be killed total dps is ultimately what matter. In some cases trash can be skipped, in many cases all that dps is necessary be it slogging through them 1 at a time or cleaving/epi but cleaving/epi is much faster and you take less damage so your analogy seems lacking TBH.

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1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

I am to the point that its better to ask anet what classes they want us to play then asking for balances updates. Give us a bench mark of what class is needed for what events. The Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto has been broken and lost. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Where did you even get the idea that anet wants anyone to play a specific class in specific events? That's the first I hear of it.

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37 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

LF FIREBRANDS TO TANK, HEAL, DPS AND SUPPORT PST

The irony being that the FB slot is the least contested in the fractal meta, making it  the least likely to have difficulty filling. People really need to start understanding what they are complaining about here and the consequence of how changing it will affect the game. 

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2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I am to the point that its better to ask anet what classes they want us to play then asking for balances updates. Give us a bench mark of what class is needed for what events. The Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto has been broken and lost. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

If Anet wants something specific played more, they just buff it and let nature take its course. As your post does NOT indicate, Anet doesn't need to tell people what to play .... people can play classes they want and still be successful. In otherwords, what you are suggesting isn't how it works. 

The Design Manifesto is broken? Howso? What broken part of it is related to what we are talking about here?

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20 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

That sums up the game and anet balancing to this point.

Or any other game ... I've yet to play a game that doesn't have a meta. It's nonsensical to complain about it. As long as games have optimal ways to complete content, the meta will exist. 

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On 1/22/2022 at 5:09 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

The irony being that the FB slot is the least contested in the fractal meta, making it  the least likely to have difficulty filling. People really need to start understanding what they are complaining about here and the consequence of how changing it will affect the game. 

If only it were taking up just 1 slot.  But don't complain about it.  It's pointless.  Not because there will always be a meta and that's okay, but because after years of this kitten balancing they still haven't done anything about it.  There will always be a meta and apparently firebrand will always be that meta.  kitten...

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1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If only it were taking up just 1 slot.  But don't complain about it.  It's pointless.  Not because there will always be a meta and that's okay, but because after years of this kitten balancing they still haven't done anything about it.  There will always be a meta and apparently firebrand will always be that meta.  kitten...

I don't know if you are being sarcastic but ... partially correct. First, I have seen nothing that suggests 2FB's is a meta comp in fractals so ???  Is that true or just some vitriol? I mean, why stop at 2? Let's just say 5 FB is fractal comps and be done? The more sensational the better right?

Second, people can play how they want and that's intended. Groups can choose to fill up spots with classes that they already have to have redundancy with a super safe but less efficient comps. I don't get why anyone would have a problem with that. There isn't a reason to complain about how other people play ... that's exactly how this game was marketed. 

The thing that is wrong about your post here is that meta have never stopped Anet from making class changes ... so they haven't done anything about it? Maybe not directly ... but class changes have affected meta numerous times in the past and there isn't any reason to think it won't in the future either. I have no idea if FB will always be that meta ... simply depends on what is needed and how the game content evolves. 

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1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If only it were taking up just 1 slot.  But don't complain about it.  It's pointless.  Not because there will always be a meta and that's okay, but because after years of this kitten balancing they still haven't done anything about it.  There will always be a meta and apparently firebrand will always be that meta.  kitten...

Ya the mindless balancing chose from anet is not as bad as just how slow they update there game. Its ok for anet to make bad choese (they make a lot of them) but there allways room to fix there errors but if it takes 6 monts + on what maybe a nomral time scale will be too late to "fix." All the worst when we are at 2 years. It just see inexcusable.

What going to be to be odd is no one playing the EoD elite spec because PoF elite spec where simply over power creeped with out any real update pulling it back. Your Firebrand will still be asked for over your Willbender meta goes both ways and it makes the game painfully boring because of it.

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14 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Ya the mindless balancing chose from anet is not as bad as just how slow they update there game. Its ok for anet to make bad choese (they make a lot of them) but there allways room to fix there errors but if it takes 6 monts + on what maybe a nomral time scale will be too late to "fix." All the worst when we are at 2 years. It just see inexcusable.

As normal, you excluded the scenario that if Anet isn't fixing it after that long ... it's maybe not an error that needs fixing. 

Quote

What going to be to be odd is no one playing the EoD elite spec because ...

You have no idea how players will adopt EoD specs and if they don't, no idea why. It's not a problem anyways because any given  spec/build being meta is not standard, it's an exception, especially in 5 man content.  Again, this isn't a problem with balancing ... it's a problem because there are 9 classes with especs and only 5 spots to fill. 

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3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You have no idea how players will adopt EoD specs and if they don't, no idea why. It's not a problem anyways because any given  spec/build being meta is not standard, it's an exception, especially in 5 man content.  Again, this isn't a problem with balancing ... it's a problem because there are 9 classes with especs and only 5 spots to fill. 

It is pretty obvious when you logically consider what each spec brings and what it doesn't.  As it stands now looking at high-end PVE:

  • Virtuoso: Its just DPS.  If that drops, people won't play it.
  • Catalyst: It will be played for DPS, so long as it's damage remains so high.  If it gets nerfed (which it probably will), then it will be used sparingly as a higher DPS/higher risk option over scrapper in non-condi fights.  Primary quickness users will still be Firebrand and Chrono due to their massive utility and more diverse set of boons.  Also inferior to...
  • Harbinger: It will be played.  It is a better quickness option than Scrapper/Catalyst, and it can do good condition damage as well.  This will be considered an option on-par with STM chrono for quickness.
  • Untamed: I don't know much about ranger, but the outlook on the forums is less than favorable.  It is another "DPS" spec.
  • Specter: It will be played.  It works as an alacrity bot and it creates an immense amount of barrier.  It is capable of doing decent damage as a healer, too.  It has good CC both in movement and defiance bar damage.
  • Mechanist: It will not be played.  The cDPS rotation is too complicated for most people.  The inconsistent alacrity makes it the second-worst option for the role, behind Willbender.
  • Bladesword: It is just DPS.
  • Vindicator: It is just DPS:
  • Willbender: The worst alacrity option, giving up the standard utility of its virtues.  Otherwise, it is just DPS.

 

There's two "Yes" professions (harbinger, specter).  The others are, at best, a "maybe".  In 5 man content you might see Quick-Harbinger + Heal Specter + 3 DPS.  It isn't as strong as the current meta, but it is capable  In 10 man content, the alacrity users will disappear, and then it will be Renegade/Mirage + 2 Quickness (Firebrand, Chrono, Harbinger, Scrapper, Catalyst, in order of desirability) + Druid for Might and Mechanics.  The only one guaranteed to be seen for anything but "fun" reasons is the Harbinger.  

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6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't know if you are being sarcastic but ... partially correct. First, I have seen nothing that suggests 2FB's is a meta comp in fractals so ???  Is that true or just some vitriol? I mean, why stop at 2? Let's just say 5 FB is fractal comps and be done? The more sensational the better right?

Second, people can play how they want and that's intended. Groups can choose to fill up spots with classes that they already have to have redundancy with a super safe but less efficient comps. I don't get why anyone would have a problem with that. There isn't a reason to complain about how other people play ... that's exactly how this game was marketed. 

The thing that is wrong about your post here is that meta have never stopped Anet from making class changes ... so they haven't done anything about it? Maybe not directly ... but class changes have affected meta numerous times in the past and there isn't any reason to think it won't in the future either. I have no idea if FB will always be that meta ... simply depends on what is needed and how the game content evolves. 

You've been shown information that suggests as high as a 40% representation for FB in fractals.  Is it representative of the full population?  No.  But it's certainly an indication that 20% representation is likely a fantasy if the anecdotal evidence of your own eyes by simply opening up fractal LFG at reset isn't proof enough.  Of course, you don't consider any of this a problem, so it doesn't matter anyway.  Keep on trolling.

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Yo, everythings viable to an extent. But..... Scourge, renegade, and Firebrand bring so much to the table that you are handicapping yourself if they aren't in the group by a large degree.  Ele's for one almost require them to stay alive. It's like the difference between a pocket knife and a hunting knife. Both can cut, sure, but you don't want the pocket knife in a hunting scenerio. 

the other issue is that the meta never shifts. All of this imbalance wouldn't be an issue if other classes got to shine more frequently, but when it's been like 2 years or however long its been of the same thing day in and day out you start to see profession popularity shift really hard. I wonder how many people never played guard, necro, or rev before PoF but now log into those characters first every time they play? You start to see the other professions being dropped a bit because lets be honest playing something that is weaker just for the flavor and playstyle gets old when it is less effective than other options. I can do long division with a pencil and paper and my brain, but why would I when I have a graphing calculartor and a smartphone next to me? it's just a bunch of unecessary work for the same result and possibly more mistakes. 

So for me the issue isn't the meta, the meta is good because perfect balance isn't possible. The issue is that the meta doesn't shift. So if we accept that nothing will every be perfectly balanced we must also accept that the meta must shift and should do it in a lot faster fashion than it currently is or people get annoyed of not being accepted in groups based on their profession or spec.  

Hopefully when EoD comes out and we have 3 specs for all professions they can start making the older especs more specialized instead of the current One spec can do it all type of balance we currently have that seems to only benefit 3 professions.

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1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Been less than a year since Scourge started seeing this play.

That's still too long and of course firebrand especially has been problematic for far longer than that.  We're calling that kitten balance because it is.  Is there really any other way to look at this?  You can argue there will always be a meta and you'd be right.  Like @ScottBroChill.3254 points out, all we're asking is that they stop leaving things in this state for years at a time.  Is that really too much to expect from a game developer?  I don't think it is.

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Oh, no, I agree, just that "the meta" and "certain parts of the meta" are not the same, and aren't in as dire need of change.

Firebrand absolutely needs a change because it, as a spec, as a build, keeps other specs out of the playpen. This should be a priority, nothing else can bring the firebrand toolkit, not even remotely close to replicating it. Of the three OP classes, this is a clear outlier.

Alacren? Eh, work on improving other alacrity providers first, then we'll talk. Honestly, the alacren is the "upper bound" of what I consider to be the gold class support DPS role (with lower bound being Scrapper); everything should be brought up to its level.

Scourge? What can you possibly take away that won't immediately see it deleted from the meta? "Can tank well for free during rotation is obviously OP" doesn't really stand, as an argument. Trailblazer weaver is hardly OP, but that logic would suggest it is.

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1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Oh, no, I agree, just that "the meta" and "certain parts of the meta" are not the same, and aren't in as dire need of change.

Firebrand absolutely needs a change because it, as a spec, as a build, keeps other specs out of the playpen. This should be a priority, nothing else can bring the firebrand toolkit, not even remotely close to replicating it. Of the three OP classes, this is a clear outlier.

Alacren? Eh, work on improving other alacrity providers first, then we'll talk. Honestly, the alacren is the "upper bound" of what I consider to be the gold class support DPS role (with lower bound being Scrapper); everything should be brought up to its level.

Scourge? What can you possibly take away that won't immediately see it deleted from the meta? "Can tank well for free during rotation is obviously OP" doesn't really stand, as an argument. Trailblazer weaver is hardly OP, but that logic would suggest it is.

Scourge deals too much damage for what it brings to the table.  That it isn't firebrand levels of bonkers doesn't excuse it.  It was clearly overbuffed and needs trimming.

If you ask me, it's time to elevate more complex gameplay and stop overtuning the easiest specs to play.  If you want ez mode that's fine, but it shouldn't be meta.  That ease of play should come at a price.  Right now some of the easiest and most forgiving classes to play are also the most effective and versatile.

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OK, but what is it that Scourge of the cDPS variety brings to the table that is "too much"? The ability to rez a teammate once a minute? The ability to soak damage? You realize how both of these aspects are super-irrelevant if you are good, right? And how scourge, and basically necro in general, doesn't get to decide not to be tanky in order to eek out/deserve the DPS; that's what the Harbinger is going to (fail to) do.

So... nerfing scourge DPS? Dead class, instantly, and the plague/heal spec remains untouched. Good job. 

 

The desire to nerf Scourge is a desire of "want", not "need". "I don't want a spec that's so safe to play to be so effective", is basically the complaint. 
With firebrand, the desire is a "need", as it actively prevents anything from competing for the turbo-role-compression spot that it fulfills. 

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Having played other games with maintained Meta environments, most specifically Magic: The Gathering, the way the community refers to Meta in GW2 has always seemed reductionist.

The Meta for Fractals is any combination of Professions/Builds/Equipment that can successfully complete the content.

The Meta is not what players gravitate towards playing (aka the popular picks)

Yes, there are a handful of specific builds that are incredibly popular for some good reasons, but they are not The Meta, they are just a part of it.

The failing is twofold. 

The Meta is so complex that many of the compositions that could be successful do not have interchangeable parts AND the players engaged in Fractals want the most efficient runs possible.

To expand upon that, in the current popular fractal group composition, if a Druid or Mirage stepped in, everyone would need to adjust their build and play for this new composition.  Most players don't have the time or desire (and potentially know how) to make those kinds of changes on the fly.  However, there are a great many unpopular builds that can be very successful in Fractals in the correct group composition.

This creates an environment where players are expected to run builds for a specific group comp and perform to a specific standard. 

I would suggest, that with 18 (soon to be 27) eSpecs as a base, even if they were all generally balanced equally, we would still see group comps based around 3-4 builds same as we do now.

Why? Because it is easier for most players to stick to the same thing as everyone else.  When you go against the grain, you are making it harder for the whole group, even if the popular comp is actually not the best for the content.

In order for this to change we would need to see a redistribution of boons across most professions and a rebalance of DPS.  Then if someone wanted the lazy play of QFB, they can, or if they want something more complex (but still outputting the same boon uptime and dps) maybe they look at a revised QChrono.  This would allow players to bring a wider range of profession builds to Fractals without causing a lot of stress on the groups.

I wouldn't mind if this was the type of change we see in the future.  Where it becomes more of "bring the player" not "bring the right build".

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3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It is pretty obvious when you logically consider what each spec brings and what it doesn't. 

Hold on ... we are talking about meta here ... the reality is that a build being meta is not standard, it's an exception, especially in fractals. So the fact that players might not adopt EoD specs for meta ... that's not a problem. If Anet considers it a problem they will change it based on their criteria. based on the history of this game, I'm going to say you shouldn't bet on it though. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
  • Virtuoso: Its just DPS.  If that drops, people won't play it.
  • Catalyst: It will be played for DPS, so long as it's damage remains so high.  If it gets nerfed (which it probably will), then it will be used sparingly as a higher DPS/higher risk option over scrapper in non-condi fights.  Primary quickness users will still be Firebrand and Chrono due to their massive utility and more diverse set of boons.  Also inferior to...
  • Harbinger: It will be played.  It is a better quickness option than Scrapper/Catalyst, and it can do good condition damage as well.  This will be considered an option on-par with STM chrono for quickness.
  • Untamed: I don't know much about ranger, but the outlook on the forums is less than favorable.  It is another "DPS" spec.
  • Specter: It will be played.  It works as an alacrity bot and it creates an immense amount of barrier.  It is capable of doing decent damage as a healer, too.  It has good CC both in movement and defiance bar damage.
  • Mechanist: It will not be played.  The cDPS rotation is too complicated for most people.  The inconsistent alacrity makes it the second-worst option for the role, behind Willbender.
  • Bladesword: It is just DPS.
  • Vindicator: It is just DPS:
  • Willbender: The worst alacrity option, giving up the standard utility of its virtues.  Otherwise, it is just DPS.

This  whole part is nonsence just by the virtue of elites not being released.

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1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's still too long and of course firebrand especially has been problematic for far longer than that.  We're calling that kitten balance because it is.  Is there really any other way to look at this?  You can argue there will always be a meta and you'd be right.  Like @ScottBroChill.3254 points out, all we're asking is that they stop leaving things in this state for years at a time.  Is that really too much to expect from a game developer?  I don't think it is.

There is another way to look at this though .. the way the game is intended to be played and is played by many players. What is meta and for how long isn't actually a problem if you just play what you want and play with other players that play what they want. As I already pointed out to you, things are NOT left in this state for years at a time; Anet makes LOTS of class changes over the years. You just don't want to acknowledge that what is meta doesn't seem to be their balancing priority. 

I actually do think it's too much to ask that Anet artificially engineer meta for the fraction of the fraction of players that want it changed 'because bored' and don't want to play anything but their preferred class and want to be optimal. There isn't a reason to respond to that since the answer to that specific problem already exists, that kind of change is completely unnecessary and sends the wrong message about what this game offers players. 

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