One Change to Hammer that Could Open Up Rev's Versatility and Roles

[Jaykay.9641]

Hi all. Hope your new year is going well. With EoD right around the corner, I'd like to discuss a topic that I consider a prime issue with Core Rev - it is the only profession lacking a true ranged duelist weapon.

There have been topics in the past that tried to address this issue. Currently, it's really only used primarily in one game mode - WvW - and mainly zerg play. In sPvP it's virtually non-existent. Unranked players may test builds; Shao even made a montage with Core Hammer Rev, but it just isn't good in the game mode. In PvE, it's OK for some functions in Open World, but "anything works" there. In Fractals, Strikes, and Raids - you'll rarely ever see it.

So the goal of this post is to create some discussion about how we can make the least amount of changes to Hammer to make it more flexible in other game modes (especially dueling) while still keeping the zerg/siege style of it for it's main function in WvW. My solution:

Remove the Chill off Phase Smash (Hammer 3) and move the Chill to Coalescence of Ruin (Hammer 2) and make it an Ice Field

IMO, that's all that is needed. The Chill on Phase Smash isn't even that impactful. CD/Damage/Range/Field Duration/Cast time/Effect timing on new Hammer 2 can all be adjusted to compensate. You can even remove Dark Field effect from Field of the Mists (Hammer 4) as it doesn't really add too much.

How will this change of having Hammer 2 becoming an Ice Field positively affect Rev and Hammer to be used in other game modes or in other roles?

• Self Peel - Hammer is poor at making space for itself. Other 1200 range weapons have some form of reliable self peel in escapes/evades/easy CC, etc. Drop the Hammer is such a long cast time it's very hard to use when dueling.
  • Hammer Bolt (Hammer 1) is one of the only auto attack 100% projectile finishers in the game. Hammer 1 through an Ice Field will give 1 sec of Chill on enemy. So a player can semi-kite while laying a Hammer 2 Ice Field an Auto attacking.
  • Whirl Finishers - Staff auto and Sword 2 can give additional Chill procs (even though Sword 2 already gives Chill) after swapping from Hammer.
  • Leap Finishers - Mallyx Call to Anguish can give self Frost Aura as well as new Vindicator Archimorus Dash Nomad's Advance.
  • Blasting Ice Fields - A Rev Hammer player can blast there new Ice Field with Hammer 3 or 5, Mace 3, or Staff 4 to give area Frost Auras creating more peel
• Group Support
  • As listed above, Blasting Ice/Light Fields - A ranged Ventari Healer building could become viable in some content. Blasting Ice Fields for group Frost Auras with Hammer, Ventari Elite, and Staff 4 would be a thing. Blasting Ventari projectile barrier light fields would add additional cleanse options. Can open up other rune options as a side effect. You could get really crazy and lay a Hammer 2 Ice Field and switch to Mace 3 and get a triple blast finisher.
  • Teammate Ice Field Assists - Other players can use finishers in the new Ice Field Hammer 2 to create their own effects.
• Other Revenant Side Effects with Proposed Change
  • More Variation of Abyssal Chill Synergy (even though Hammer is a power weapon). Could create some unique builds.
  • Open up some other runes - Superior Rune of Ice, Superior Rune of Grenth, etc.
• Other Notes and Thoughts
  • There are currently only 4 Ice Fields in the game (Ele - Staff Frozen Ground, Engi - Endothermic Shell, Reaper - Executioner Scythe, and Ranger - Frost Trap) . To my knowledge, none of the new E-Specs were given any. One more Ice Field won't break the game. Endothermic shell could be a good barometer for CD and field duration - 15 sec CD with 5 sec duration.
  • This wouldn't affect WvW zerging as much as you think.
    • Anet changed Fields to be self-prioritized - meaning zergs won't be procing this a lot as most dps are making their own fields.
    • There's so much cleanse from supports that it's still going to get converted to Alacrity like it already does.
  • There's a ton of movement impairing effect removal that some classes will hardly notice this change (Daredevils, Holo's, etc.)
  • These changes could make the Hammer available for the occasional sPvP match or WvW Roaming/Havoc groups.
  • The current Coalescence of Ruin is already buggy as hell, so a change like this may not even have that big of an impact unless in open field.

Sorry for the novel, I got carried away. So what are your thoughts? Could this work? Discuss!

TL;DR - Move Hammer 3 Chill effect on hit to Hammer 2 and make it an Ice Field. Lots of option open up.

[Justine.6351]

Hammer rev lost too many damage buttons in wvw/spvp and cor is garbage for anything but hitting a pile of players due to all the bad changes to it.

 

It would be cool if they changed all the hard cc skills over to soft cc if they also added damage back to them. I don't see that happening though.

[Shao.7236]

I've played hammer as Core Rev in PvP for soon to be a year and a half or so 2 years, there is little change needed for it as the profession original design (which not a lot of players even use) has great syngergy with it.

 

Real issues come from CoR entirely, the uniformity of damage of AoE was a good change, however;

 

* Manually targetting is not necessary and not intuitive when going from left or right, tilting the AoE desired direction which confuses a lot of players.

 

* The hitbox being moved at the tip of the hammer created such a large non sensical gap at point blank that ruins close quarters at 100% for the inability to hit anything which is something that old CoR could do. If such change was because of the new damage values then it's good to tell Anet that it's unecessary because it'd be better off with the old value rather than losing the ability to hit at all however damage currently doesn't need change, the position should just be fixed.

 

* The skill has slower travel than it's original version, you can barely make the distance CoR hits while having anyone CC'd. Original should be restored.

 

* It lacks sound which is ridiculous, implying nobody play tested it before implementing the changes, not good at all, while in favor of the user, suppressed earthquake is unfair for the receiving end anyway.

 

* AoE thickness is smaller which bugs out way more on uneven terrain, as well as somehow having a worst time travelling around in general.

 

* The cooldown changes in PvP were understandable but 10 seconds is too much, 8 is more like what it should be given that the only way to have a lower cooldown is Alacrity and originally this skill was 4 seconds which technically is already more than double while in PvP a majority of all weapon skills for all classes haven't changed at all. Chilling Isolation has gotten proper changes, should this one do too.

 

Because of it's design, there's only one map that CoR is a complete joke and that's Sky"hammer" funnily enough as terrain depends too much on verticality.

 

If we truly want to fix hammer once at for all, they need scrap the idea of a terrain AoE and go for what was suggested before by someone here, make it like Revenant down skills where Forceful Displacement or Vengeful Blast as not projectiles but still visual distant based attacks. Most notably Vengeful Blast has similar mechanics to old CoR but backwards with visuals that are extremely fitting to the concept of being issued at a distance.

 

Quite the candidate for a change.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Shao.7236

[draxynnic.3719]

I think there is a valid observation to make that, as the only real range weapon available to core revenant, hammer could do with a bit more synergy with condi builds. More Chill for Abyssal Chill is a suitable approach, since it doesn't add additional damage unless you have that trait, although I could see it being too much.

 

Adding some bleeding to CoR could also work - the big problem CoR has in WvW balance-wise was spike potential, so adding some milder DoT conditions might not significantly increase its power in WvW zergfights but could give it some more versatility elsewhere.

[The Boz.2038]

Hammer 2 problems: Delayed landing, extremely unreliable at range if *any* terrain irregularities are present (I've seen it do 90 degree turns), minimum range deadzone.

Hammer 2 solutions: Just copy the code from elementalist earth scepter 3, Dust Devil. Flies straight, keeps to the ground. Doesn't work with balconies/cliffs, but at least it reliably hits.

[Justine.6351]

19 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

 

If we truly want to fix hammer once at for all, they need scrap the idea of a terrain AoE and go for what was suggested before by someone here, make it like Revenant down skills where Forceful Displacement or Vengeful Blast as not projectiles but still visual distant based attacks. Most notably Vengeful Blast has similar mechanics to old CoR but backwards with visuals that are extremely fitting to the concept of being issued at a distance.

 

Quite the candidate for a change.

 

Yeah I had made the suggestion of the cascade being an aoe at target location like the rev downed skill years ago. CoR has a big animation but by the time the animation happens at the player they were already hit. Also a raised earth type animation that could be seen.

 

Guess it mostly fell on deaf ears.

Still wouldn't play hammer rev again in wvw though. Too slow and no damage even in full zerkers.

[Jobber.6348]

Personally I feel the best thing that could be done to Hammer is to add a flip skill to Skill 4 which lets you close the Mist wall early in exchange for having an evasive dodge backwards. 

 

An additional change which would be lovely is if we had Skill 2 work like Warrior's Hammershock.

[Jaykay.9641]

Wow. Wasn't available for a few days so nice to see the discussion.

Seems like there is some agreement that CoR needs a change - which I'm in in on. The reason why I recommended the ice field is that Hammer 5 is challenging to land on a single target because of the cast time so an Ice Field would promote self peel in small scale situations. Hammer inherently has 3 combo finishers in it's auto attack and 2 blast finishers but no reliable combo field to use it on. Chill is a great peeling and soft CC and also fits with the Rev theme of a decent amount of Chill application.

Another thing to think about is that Hammer is a core weapon, it will affect the elite specializations as well where Herald and Vindicator still only have access to 1 ranged weapon.

So some follow questions for anyone:

• Is the Chill on Phase Smash valuable or unnecessary?
• Would Drop the Hammer benefit from a lower cast and knockdown time? Or just make it a damage ability again?
• How can Hammer better benefit from the 100% projectile finisher on the AA?
• How can Hammer better benefit from the 2 blast finishers?
• How would you address the challenging or unreliable nature of self peel with Hammer?

Great Discussion though. let's keep it going.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Jaykay.9641

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Wow. Wasn't available for a few days so nice to see the discussion.

Seems like there is some agreement that CoR needs a change - which I'm in in on. The reason why I recommended the ice field is that Hammer 5 is challenging to land on a single target because of the cast time so an Ice Field would promote self peel in small scale situations. Hammer inherently has 3 combo finishers in it's auto attack and 2 blast finishers but no reliable combo field to use it on. Chill is a great peeling and soft CC and also fits with the Rev theme of a decent amount of Chill application.

Another thing to think about is that Hammer is a core weapon, it will affect the elite specializations as well where Herald and Vindicator still only have access to 1 ranged weapon.

So some follow questions for anyone:

• Is the Chill on Phase Smash valuable or unnecessary?
• Would Drop the Hammer benefit from a lower cast and knockdown time? Or just make it a damage ability again?
• How can Hammer better benefit from the 100% projectile finisher on the AA?
• How can Hammer better benefit from the 2 blast finishers?
• How would you address the challenging or unreliable nature of self peel with Hammer?

Great Discussion though. let's keep it going.

 

I believe field of the mists is a dark field which a hundred years ago gave leaching bolts and you could blast for aoe blind. Idk what it is anymore though since the fields have been changed. Its kind of pointless to discuss because they don't care what we think.

 

8 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Personally I feel the best thing that could be done to Hammer is to add a flip skill to Skill 4 which lets you close the Mist wall early in exchange for having an evasive dodge backwards. 

 

An additional change which would be lovely is if we had Skill 2 work like Warrior's Hammershock.

If they lower cor damage anymore you might as well play hammer shock instead rofl. Lmao play it with leg specialist to really make people cry 😂

[Shao.7236]

17 hours ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

"Hammer 5 is challenging to land on a single target"

• Would Drop the Hammer benefit from a lower cast and knockdown time? Or just make it a damage ability again?

It might seem contradictory but Hammer 5 is not meant to be landed so easily, that's why the use of utility like Quickness, Unblockable, or already existing CC allow for it to be useful in interesting fashion. One of the more particular unique way to land it is to use yourself as bait after say Phase Smash Chill while switching to Dwarf at the same time next to someone, if you have proper traits you will apply Weakness with greater Barrier and Stability, setting yourself up for free damage in the success of it.

 

However the easiest way is if you're from afar, use Phase Traversal and if you're too close to target use Shiro SotM or alternatively after Phase Smash to as Chill increases the chances. Before Shiro SotM you can always protect your energy with IR.

This is all without counting the fact that it's an AOE knockdown which can be really strong in teamfights.

 

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Is the Chill on Phase Smash valuable or unnecessary?

Necessary, it may seem like nothing but if you switch to Shiro after landing it with SotM traited, that's quite a lot of free damage to be had on the people that can't move as easily while you have more Quickness because you've hit them mid legend swap safely with Phase Smash. Be it 1 2 or 5, it'll be much easier without having to use any CC, it's also bonus damage if you're playing Hybrid.

 

Also please, tell Anet to fix the skill not working with Aggressive Agility.

 

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How can Hammer better benefit from the 100% projectile finisher on the AA?

This is highly underestimated.

 

As of right now EtD Dark Field can't really be used because Mallyx dies as soon as there's any poison since EM does nothing for it, they really need to fix that however when the legend was at it's prime you could constantly Life Steal, Blind and relatively get a good amount of Torment on people around you safely because of the evade time of Phase Smash that would add Chill on top of a blast finisher, playing Mallyx as Hammer can sound gimmicky but it makes you a debuff machine from a distance while able to provide constant Life Steal to people that are with you to which by the way this Life Steal deals just as much damage as IO and therefor is a cost effective way energy wise to deal good non crit additional damage on top of healing.

 

There's the Lighting Field of IR which is also works really well with Quickness because of the guaranteed Vulnerability whilst you're safe from being CC'd. It's like using Swords but from afar while it's active.

 

IO used to give Quickness of course so using it at range was still nice back then too for AA. Now it's really lack luster, not worth using. You're better off building Jade Wind constantly since Hammer is really low cost.

 

Finally, the biggest thing AA can do is spam condition cleansing on teammates with Protective Solace from Ventari with the Light Field, I am not kidding as it is quite powerful against single condition based builds while since it's projectile denial, nobody can stop you from it from afar easily. The way projectile finishers work is the effect takes place where the projectile lands in a 240 radius, meaning that for anytime you hit a target, any of your teammates around that target will see themselves cleared of a condition.

 

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How would you address the challenging or unreliable nature of self peel with Hammer?

Let's not lie to ourselves here, nothing but staff has "true" self peel. Sword 5 is arguably an anomaly since they've reworked it even though Axe was always meant to be the "offensive" off-hand while Sword was the sustain off-hand back in the day however for some reason because Axe had conditions (Like Sword kek) players confused it as a condition weapon despite it's greater burst damage while Revenant is know to be a jack of all trades.

 

Duelist Preparation could have remained as a riposte while Deathstrike could have just seen it's damage increased but not superior to Axe because in concept the skill was pretty sweet for outplaying compared what it is now, pretending to be what it isn't as a skill that hits stupidly fast and buggy as hell compared it's prior design. Beats me as to why people wanted this but the original design was better with the pull for more plays, my answer would be because hue hue dual swords cooler than sword axe me want damage. Besides, the meta back then was much different with so many things after another that were more busted for Core Revenant to shine as it does now.

 

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How can Hammer better benefit from the 2 blast finishers?

The latter speaks for it, but Blinds, Cleanses and Swiftness are the options, how you use it depends on you but there's several uses I can visualize.

 

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Great Discussion though. let's keep it going.

I love these kinds of discussions but I do firmly believe that outside CoR being a buggy mess, Hammer is a strong weapon that is greatly misunderstood along it's profession. The versatility for what it is reaches pretty far up other along other weapons.

 

@Justine.6351 Dark fields still give Life Steal, Field of the Mists hasn't changed ever.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Shao.7236