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Feeling negative…ranger in wvw discussion.


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I’ve been waiting years for ranger to get an elite spec that puts it into the WvW zerging meta.
 

Druid was fun but they nerfed staff (evade) & nerfed ca & healing. The new glyph was supposed to help but to be quite honest, unless the glyph’s location moves with the player then It’s quite useless unless you get extremely lucky with placement. Even then, the healing component is quite underwhelming. 

 

Soulbeast stance share is cute but… it’s easily outdone by Firebrand. & If i try to join a zerg as a sniper then I get booted. 


The Untamed is… well. Useless. Completely messes up stealthing pushes and can’t become the frontline bruiser as intended (but why choose it, when spellbreaker does everything better). 
 

Ranger was my first class and WvW is the first game mode that really stuck with me. I’ve waited years just like other ranger mains, I played scourge and firebrand and scrapper instead but to be quite honest I just wish ranger would someday have a place in WvW meta.
 

Not just in casual zerging but in competitive guild zerging, I just want to be able to provide something. 
 

Honestly I’m just quite sick of Anet favouring some classes over others. And as a result we get an elite specialisation with no coherency, ugly & boring animations, absolute failure of executing a concept that was [probably] clumsily made up overnight & agreed on JUST so they could go ahead with the expac. Did I mention its animations are ugly? 
 

This is Not an attack on anyone, however I do feel like I have to express how utterly disappointed I am with how things for rangers, from the perspective of a WvW player.

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Well your problem is you are trying to replace firebrand when soulbeast does not. If you're trying to play as a sniper there is no role of sniper in squads, especially when it is projectile based.

Your best bet is to run the gw2mists stanceshare soulbeast. The stability output is not terrible even if it is worse than firebrand and it has immob immunity more or less. Even some top guilds run soulbeast for immob and the dolyak stance.

Firebrand is solely used as a support right now, soulbeast is a DPS role with stability tacked on rather than a support.

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23 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Just don’t Zerg bro. I usually hangout on the tail and swoop on the stragglers. Rangers has so much to offer small scale that the trade off is group support. 

Its a mentality issue every one want to be part of the zerg, if not alot will think its a useless spec or role.

A group of decent rangers backed up by for example  1 or 2 thief with basilisk venon shewing backliners is really good.

I never tryed myself full extend of this combo but basilisc and 4 rangers with it using barrage m8 be strong?

Edited by Aeolus.3615
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On 1/21/2022 at 7:00 PM, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Rangers may be unpopular for zerging, but last time I checked they were very popular as a roaming class - and WvW is not all about zerging, you know 😉

For now at least, with how they are changing wvw by removing many ways solo players can get grace period you are basically roaming with no rewards or zerging and getting rewards. 

Untamed really should have let us finally get a spot. Too bad its the worst E-spec out of all of them. 

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Well you have to play to your niches. At the moment, Ranger's niche is strictly roaming and assassinating Zerg tails, but that has always been the case. 

Trying to squish your class into the role of another is just not gonna work. But that's not to say SBs are not seen in Zergs at all. There have been cases of SB Stance Share frontlines being used in smaller scale zergbuster groups. 

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Not sure about max size zerging as I don't do it, but you definitely can be useful in larger group scenarios.

You just have to run axe (I use both main and offhand); then you can play a build with prelude lash and dolyak stance and be pretty useful in 900 and less range.  Heck, you could probably run double melee at that point with NM if you really want to get in there and do damage (NM with all offensive trinkets--2400 base power, 100% crit with spotter and 2100 or so toughness).

The build I'm running at the moment has enough kiting ability with Soulbeast skills to basically get out of anything but the middle of 20+ people who know what CC is.  I can't tell you how many groups I leapt into, prelude lash into axe #5 or maul and kited out without any issue. 

Edited by Gotejjeken.1267
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On 1/21/2022 at 1:33 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Well your problem is you are trying to replace firebrand when soulbeast does not. If you're trying to play as a sniper there is no role of sniper in squads, especially when it is projectile based.

Your best bet is to run the gw2mists stanceshare soulbeast. The stability output is not terrible even if it is worse than firebrand and it has immob immunity more or less. Even some top guilds run soulbeast for immob and the dolyak stance.

Firebrand is solely used as a support right now, soulbeast is a DPS role with stability tacked on rather than a support.

Yeah unfortunately, the wvw zerging commanders prefer firebrand for support and if I even try to do some hybrid builds then they'd prefer I swap to scourge or scrapper. And I mean for competitive, high skill level zerging.

Edited by Cqv.3710
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On 1/21/2022 at 7:00 PM, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Rangers may be unpopular for zerging, but last time I checked they were very popular as a roaming class - and WvW is not all about zerging, you know 😉

I have been roaming instead of zerging that is literally all I've been doing these years unless I hop on another class to join a zerg. The point is that rangers and other classes should also have a spot in wvw zerg meta because zerging is the most rewarding speaking both personally, and objectively in terms of the rewards.

Edited by Cqv.3710
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3 hours ago, Cqv.3710 said:

I have been roaming instead of zerging that is literally all I've been doing these years unless I hop on another class to join a zerg. The point is that rangers and other classes should also have a spot in wvw zerg meta because zerging is the most rewarding speaking both personally, and objectively in terms of the rewards.

You can just follow a tag..that’s what I do and pew pew the stragglers. 

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Roaming is not a thing: Mounts and the proliferation of superspeed and high mobility elites has forced the roaming to almost disappear. Most of what is left are perma-stealth thieves and condi mirages.  Maybe some malix revenants some pewpews in the sidelines. 

Zerging is what happens when a game developer increases the movement speed. And StanceShare does not work in zerging.

I have yet to see a video where the  pitiful immobeast build  can actually land a hit that is not the pull or the elite (no-reflectable AoEs) .  Ranger is not a thing in WvW aside from +1 roaming, it doesn't matter  how hard some are trying to push some random build into zerging. Even in organized guild runs they do not like to include the immobeast as any other class can do much better without the risk of killing allies because the reflects.     

 

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On 1/22/2022 at 11:32 AM, Gorem.8104 said:

For now at least, with how they are changing wvw by removing many ways solo players can get grace period you are basically roaming with no rewards or zerging and getting rewards. 

Untamed really should have let us finally get a spot. Too bad its the worst E-spec out of all of them. 

"many ways" - one, and in particular the one that was mostly used by afk farmers.

In all of my roaming, I have never had to rely on repairing walls to mantain activity. The only change I can feel is that I can't rush the skirmish chests with outnumbered map anymore.

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10 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

"many ways" - one, and in particular the one that was mostly used by afk farmers.

In all of my roaming, I have never had to rely on repairing walls to mantain activity. The only change I can feel is that I can't rush the skirmish chests with outnumbered map anymore.

 

It was not used by afk farmers - get your facts straight. Afk farmers use defence participation in EBG for semi afk infinite grace period that never ends especially if you have smc or make targets like Duri go under attack constantly by having siege there. I tested this the day the patch came out and afk'd 1k pips while not playing by afking in smc just to prove that this change does nothing to people willing to afk pips. ALL it does it hurt active players who want to defend objectives because you know why? 

Outside of EBG, there is only 2 ways now to get grace period reliably to 10 minutes outside of killing guards every 2 minutes. Capturing objectives and killing players. Defence ticks do not give it and wall repair now does not give it AND siege use does not give it. So you can't cause havoc with siege use like roamers used to be able to do unless you don't want rewards. So if you want to tier up a tower and defend it outside of EBG as it gets under attack from range? Well now you get no rewards doing so. I know this because before the patch hit I spent hours at the tower outside of the forward camp constantly defending it from attacks from both other colours. And the only reason I could stay and be rewarded while I played solo as a scout and defender, was because of wall repair. 

 

Notice the difference here? On one hand I afk'd and got rewards after this patch, and on the other I played and was super active watching like a hawk for hours and doing that now would have meant no rewards. So Its either afk for rewards now or zerg as the best means of keeping participation up. 

 

9 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

You haven't played much WvW huh?

 

Comments like that don't really work with someone who favours facts and truth 🙂

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7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

It was not used by afk farmers - get your facts straight. Afk farmers use defence participation in EBG for semi afk infinite grace period that never ends especially if you have smc or make targets like Duri go under attack constantly by having siege there. I tested this the day the patch came out and afk'd 1k pips while not playing by afking in smc just to prove that this change does nothing to people willing to afk pips. 

I had a guild mate farm pips "afk" by literally "hitting a wall once every five minutes with repair - his words, not mine.

And same guild mate complained about the change.

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

ALL it does it hurt active players who want to defend objectives because you know why? 

If you were "roaming" and try to defend towers, while failing to get any kills you were already on activity drop before that change. the best defence was always call in the local tag if it was upgraded objective (therefore worth defending) or not bother if it was not upgraded (not worth defending).

Sentries, camps, dolyaks, all still give you participation grace periods, and on all borderlands you can easilly chain those without having to tap the walls.

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

So you can't cause havoc with siege use like roamers used to be able to do unless you don't want rewards.

random trebbing of things was always best done in coordination with local squad, so you can always just be a part of that squad and ask commander to flag you for shared participation?

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

So if you want to tier up a tower and defend it outside of EBG as it gets under attack from range? Well now you get no rewards doing so

Uptiering a tower consists of having enough dollies reach it. Dollie escorts still do participation grace. if it's trebbed from range you can still mantain the wall while running dollies and still get rewarded. even more easilly if you have a buddy to run shifts with between wall maintenance and dolly runs.

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I know this because before the patch hit I spent hours at the tower outside of the forward camp constantly defending it from attacks from both other colours.

You are trying to claim in here, that you defended a tower from two separate groups, solo, for hours and failed to kill a single player, and did not run out of supplies while doing so (by not mantaining dolly line)? I am getting a feel there is imporant piece of a puzzle left in here called local tag coming to the rescue.

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

And the only reason I could stay and be rewarded while I played solo as a scout

That's what they implemented squad shared participation for.

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Notice the difference here? On one hand I afk'd and got rewards after this patch, and on the other I played and was super active watching like a hawk for hours and doing that now would have meant no rewards. So Its either afk for rewards now or zerg as the best means of keeping participation up. 

And here you are again ignoring the most popular flavour of roaming - flipping flags and camps, killing dollies to undercut the supply chains, escorting allied dollies to keep the stuff upgraded and supplied (last one less popular tho). Still perfectly capable of getting participation topped off.

7 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Comments like that don't really work with someone who favours facts and truth 🙂

For someone who claims to be someone who favours facts and truth, you seem to have quite limited view on what "facts and truth" are.

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13 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Comments like that don't really work with someone who favours facts and truth 🙂

Durning 3rd beta I had no issues with keeping up the reward points at max with the usual roaming.

But no you saying something means it's true.

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On 1/23/2022 at 8:38 AM, anduriell.6280 said:

Roaming is not a thing: Mounts and the proliferation of superspeed and high mobility elites has forced the roaming to almost disappear. Most of what is left are perma-stealth thieves and condi mirages.  Maybe some malix revenants some pewpews in the sidelines. 

Zerging is what happens when a game developer increases the movement speed. And StanceShare does not work in zerging.

I have yet to see a video where the  pitiful immobeast build  can actually land a hit that is not the pull or the elite (no-reflectable AoEs) .  Ranger is not a thing in WvW aside from +1 roaming, it doesn't matter  how hard some are trying to push some random build into zerging. Even in organized guild runs they do not like to include the immobeast as any other class can do much better without the risk of killing allies because the reflects.     

 

 

I mean, we can each put up some videos to illustrate our points if you want? I have many gigs worth of roaming on ranger, and many recent videos with the build I mentioned above. 

For clarity, not running immobbeast as Druid is far superior for that; but like general roaming can still be done pretty easily by a lone soulbeast.  

Not saying that Warclaw and super speed spam didn't make things way, way harder...but even something like double melee can work thanks to the abundance of gap closers the Soulbeast has.  

I will agree about stance share though, they need to buff that--sadly with Untamed coming out that's not happening lol

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I've said this countless of times before, but the issue you are describing comes from the perspective of only looking to join into a public squad as easily as possible. There is more to WvW than that even if we limit the discussion to large scale content or public content.

  • There are only 5 spots in a party and there are 9 classes, 27 specs and countless of more builds. Meta is math.
  • The meta looks for simple reproduction of roles for those 5 spots (a primary support, a secondary support, a primary damage dealer, a primary control class and then usually some kind of secondary for damage or control).
  • This has been the same for "main parties" in vanilla, HoT, PoF and all variations of meta regardless how melee- or ranged favouring the balance has been. The difference over time has mainly laid in whether additional, different parties have been formed beyond whatever main type of party that the main leader leads.
  • The meta will always be constructed around what most reliably form those roles with secondary options available through what a player who is looking to lead other players, more or less alone, can reasonably expect to have available to them in other players. It is not something you can simply balance around.
  • Beyond that point, and this is where things get interesting, it is more about what you can make flexible and available to them, to some degree that has to do with classes, to some degree it has to do with your ability to play your own character, but to the largest degree it has to do with you helping the leader to lead.
  • Instead of a single player having to slot secondary and tertiary options for them to lead or just "finding support for everyone" you can help leading and that opens up a variety of class, role and build options, usually among the less asked for classes. The ranged, havoc or focus parties of vanilla did exactly that. It is still possible.
  • In a broad perspective, I'd say that this is even how the classes are designed and balance is built. It is built around a factor of 5 (a party) but it was never built for 1 player to lead 10 parties by themselves with little to no help or ambition. Some classes excel in sub-leading roles and their impopularity comes from little sub-leading being done.
  • So classes like eg., Thief and Ranger, do have things they excel at even in a large-scale public setting but they assume for someone other than the squad commander to lead the party that they are in. Those classes themselves are usually the leaders of the kind of party with the kind of roles that are viable for them. So the players playing those classes need to be prepared to lead that party or function within a smaller party that calls its own calls (ie., making them more reliant on detailed communication and execution). In fact, any "good" party does this to some degree.
  • As a result, there is a big difference between what classes, specs or builds are available to inexperienced players, looking to join into large-scale public content and what is available once you take any of those factors (experience, leadership, scale and public) and change it. Large scale is just one outcome of one factor.
  • If there are 5 spots in a party for 9 classes, 27 specs and more builds: Must everyone have an option for an inexperienced, follower in large public squads? That does not have a crystal clear answer because some things can be expected of players and some options are presented to players. It also impacts will to lead, thus health of WvW.

These are also the reasons that mantras of "join disc", "join coms" and "join a guild" keep being repeated because that is where you can learn more about your class, engage in more detailed communication and where you can learn about more complex options in composition (that involves breaking roles apart and recombining them over different classes). Those things can simply not be expected to be done during a run with a public squad lead and organised by few players. If you join disc, coms and a guild options in classes and builds will eventually open up for you as your experience grows. That's just not expected of you if you casually and anonymously go into public squads.

Turning that ship around is also a likely factor that guides Anet's direction from "just casually join a public tag that we take for granted" from taking a more responsible approach to how groups are formed and content is made these days, with all the drama that follows the change. It aims to foster responsibility, help and seeing the possibilities rather than just selfishly joining-into content taken for granted, on something seen as tolerable or viable (meta).

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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On 1/23/2022 at 2:38 PM, anduriell.6280 said:

Roaming is not a thing: Mounts and the proliferation of superspeed and high mobility elites has forced the roaming to almost disappear. Most of what is left are perma-stealth thieves and condi mirages.  Maybe some malix revenants some pewpews in the sidelines. 

Which is absolutely hilarious since rangers is a big chunk of the enemies you will meet while roaming because, well, they're pretty good at it.

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35 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Which is absolutely hilarious since rangers is a big chunk of the enemies you will meet while roaming because, well, they're pretty good at it.

Yes soulbeast is good (not great) we agree at that. Yet I mostly meet thieves, mirages and some occasional condi revenant when roaming.

The grand majority of the rangers I see are pugged around a zerg or pewpewing from towers doing a +1 role. I am seriously asking myself on which servers do you play, the only one in EU with some noticeable amount of roaming rangers is Gandara, we seem to be laying different games. Even then they are usually pugged small ganking groups pewpewing from afar with a full glass build. 

 

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1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Yes soulbeast is good (not great) we agree at that. Yet I mostly meet thieves, mirages and some occasional condi revenant when roaming.

The grand majority of the rangers I see are pugged around a zerg or pewpewing from towers doing a +1 role. I am seriously asking myself on which servers do you play, the only one in EU with some noticeable amount of roaming rangers is Gandara, we seem to be laying different games. Even then they are usually pugged small ganking groups pewpewing from afar with a full glass build. 

 

I am on FSP.

We're fighting Gandara.

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