Why waste time doing 'new strikes' while you could be doing new Raid/Fractals?

[jokke.6239]

55 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

To me the best is open world solo PvM.  I do not know the difference between a strike and a raid - and I am ok with that. 😎

What is PvM?

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

13 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

The best content of the game is Raid/Fractal, why would ANet invest time/money
in something that is already useless in teaching people about raids when fractals seems
a way better teacher?

No restrictions. Lower difficulty makes demanding quality-standards almost pointless. To get new players into the content, they need a way to experience it. If they enjoy it, they will stick to it. 

13 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

Instead of useless content that has NO REWARD and 
never will be a gateway to raid?

No rewards = no farmers. The moment the rewards are good, they add KP requirements for quality assurance. There is no place for new players, only experts. Time is money, money is short. No room for failure or learning by doing.

14 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

The gap is too big, and for some people fractal CM seems even more difficult than some RAIDS.
ANET,  if you want people to learn raid, do a better job by teaching the mechanics of your own game instead
of creating content that will never get people into raid.

One big problem is the weird situation in the LFG. For every game and game-mode out there, the group-finder is always the best choice for starting. Raiding in GW2, the LFG is a hub for farmers and sellers. If you want to get into the content as a new players, you have to find a guild. A guild which is dedicated on introducing new players into that content. Do training runs with them until you are experienced enough to participate in the LFG. That is not how it is supposed to work. It should be exactly the opposite!

Regarding the raid-community, it is always someone else's fault. They are never to blame. Every suggestion that was made to improve the situation with raids was declined. As long as the solution requires the raid-community to act, the answer is always NO. Everyone else is to blame, always. Especially ANet and the toxic casuals. Discussing and working on problems with them turned into a chore, not many of us are interested in. The instant the moderator moves this topic into their sub-forum, I'm out. 

14 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

This largely depend of the community!
Or would u think that people will ask for a new strike kp?

Of course they will. But only if the rewards are worth the time. 

[Tukaram.8256]

1 hour ago, jokke.6239 said:

What is PvM?

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting the new lingo.  That is now PvE.  It has been PvM (player v monster) since the mid 90s.  Not sure when PvE was adopted.  I have been playing MMORPGs since 1997. 😎

[jokke.6239]

17 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting the new lingo.  That is now PvE.  It has been PvM (player v monster) since the mid 90s.  Not sure when PvE was adopted.  I have been playing MMORPGs since 1997. 😎

Oh okay, thx 🙂

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting the new lingo.  That is now PvE.  It has been PvM (player v monster) since the mid 90s.  Not sure when PvE was adopted.  I have been playing MMORPGs since 1997. 😎

The term PvE itself is about 20 years old itself, even predating GW1 to my understanding.

[voltaicbore.8012]

17 hours ago, Minos.5168 said:

 

But why? Legendary crafting is one of the only things that really keeps the GW2 economy moving.

Every TP sale is a 15% gold sink, and many players opt to buy whatever mats they need from the TP.

Legendary armor via PvP and WvW is already super-easy to get... And ArenaNet has already stated that they're not going to make another Legendary armor set due to the difficulty in designing the one that we have.

 

Currently, someone can get a full set of Legendary armor in 6 weeks if they clear all 7 wings each week. (the next 2 sets would take 12 weeks each)

It's not all that special, more of a time investment than anything.

Then why make it even easier? You say it keeps the economy moving, but with the Legendary Armory, once you make one weight, you're done. Not sure we'd see any lasting economic benefit.

 

9 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

if you remove the good rewards, you have just the eliminated the reason for most casuals to try it.

they would need to put in a significant gear upgrade for it to work.

No. The no-reward easy mode for raids would exist just to satisfy the people who actually want to experience a version of the content for themselves, and the little bit of story that comes with. It would also be for the people who just want to get familiar with the fights and learn to eventually do the real versions of them. If you want the reward, do the thing that gives you the reward - the actual raid, not the watered down versions that exist for other reasons.

Also, why are you still here? I hear SWTOR is getting a pretty big update.

  

5 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

The problem with ANet is they try to get cute and invent new terrible instances while not sticking with what works well. 

Agreed. They also seem to have a problem with revisiting things that don't currently work well, but are still promising.

I get it, on a certain level. Iteration can be hard, you really have to believe in both the potential of the thing you're trying to improve, your ability to eventually pull it off, and the possibility of accomplishing all that within a reasonable time/budget. If you're shaky on any one of those three elements, the right call is to just pull the plug and do something new.

My guess is that ANet's internal culture has been a bit conservative when it comes to estimating the studio's overall ability to fix or improve existing systems. Ironically this conservatism, if it leads them to abandon content all the time and replace it with new stuff, makes them look the opposite of conservative to us.

Regardless of how and why things are the way they are, you can't avoid seeing that GW2's PvE is littered with the rotting corpses of abandoned systems. Just another one of the many things that make this game not at all ready for a renaissance moment like FF14 recently had. Too much stuff left to sweep under the rug, and not enough dev resources to do it, apparently.

Edited January 22, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

The problem with ANet is they try to get cute and invent new terrible instances while not sticking with what works well. 

The problem is fractals and raids don't work well, hence them being basically dead content since the vast majority of the game's playerbase doesn't like them or want to play them.

17 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Regardless of how and why things are the way they are, you can't avoid seeing that GW2's PvE is littered with the rotting corpses of abandoned systems.

These systems were abandoned because they already tried iterating on them, and said iteration didn't cause a significant amount of people to want to play them.

Dungeons, raids, and fractals, are dead because the vast majority of people playing MMOs are casuals. These people fundamentally dont find the idea of spending 30-45 minutes going through something where the devs buffed up enemy HP/damage, only to risk the possibility of failing and getting nothing, fun. Especially not when they can do anything else like the HoT metas, Dragonfall, Drizzlewood, Silverwastes, etc. and get rewards with less effort and more guarantee.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[phokus.8934]

5 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The problem is fractals and raids don't work well, hence them being basically dead content since the vast majority of the game's playerbase doesn't like them or want to play them.

These systems were abandoned because they already tried iterating on them, and said iteration didn't cause a significant amount of people to want to play them.

Dungeons, raids, and fractals, are dead because the vast majority of people playing MMOs are casuals. These people fundamentally dont find the idea of spending 30-45 minutes going through something where the devs buffed up enemy HP/damage, only to risk the possibility of failing and getting nothing, fun. Especially not when they can do anything else like the HoT metas, Dragonfall, Drizzlewood, Silverwastes, etc. and get rewards with less effort and more guarantee.

Fractals are absolutely not dead.  Way more people running those than strikes or DRMs.  So you're just flat out wrong.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Fractals are absolutely not dead.  Way more people running those than strikes or DRMs.  So you're just flat out wrong.

I never mentioned strikes or DRMs, so way to move goalposts and straw man here.

Strikes are a bad idea also. The problem with strikes is that they are based around the idea that the lack or participation in these other game modes is ignorance. A lack of understanding the game mechanics, or a lack of ability to learn said game mechanics. The real problem is player apathy. It isn't that players can't do the mechanics, or couldn't learn if they wanted, they simply don't want to do it, or learn how to do it, because that isn't the kind of content they find fun. I firmly believe that Anet shouldn't be making strikes at all. Its an absolute waste of time like Dungeons, Raids, and Fractals, are.

DRMs are a little bit better because they are short, easy, theres some variance in them via the different factions that can show up, they scale based on the number of players so the content is always playable regardless of team size, and theres selectable challenges to make them harder if the player wants. Its a far more robust and dynamic system that makes content anyone can play.

[Cuks.8241]

Just yesterday I did some strikes after a while not doing them. Granted it was weekend prime time, EU. There were up to 10 listings in lfg; standard 2 - 4 listings for All (-CW, - FS) with KP, SW-FR-Kodan poping up all the time and filling instantly, occasional CW and FS but also All without KP or just Woj or Boneskinner without KP. 

So basically you had listings for every taste and skill / KP lvl.

[Gibson.4036]

If the intro difficulty instances don’t reward better than open world metas, there will never be a significant movement of players from the open world into group instances, thereby defeating the purpose of training wheels instances.

Let the intro level instances reward the same but at a much slower pace, and players will naturally move into the harder levels as they gain confidence, and farmers won’t run the easier levels because of lower rewards/time spent.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[mindcircus.1506]

2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Just yesterday I did some strikes after a while not doing them. Granted it was weekend prime time, EU. There were up to 10 listings in lfg; standard 2 - 4 listings for All (-CW, - FS) with KP, SW-FR-Kodan poping up all the time and filling instantly, occasional CW and FS but also All without KP or just Woj or Boneskinner without KP. 

So basically you had listings for every taste and skill / KP lvl.

It's going to take more than facts and common sense to combat the hyperbole and false rhetoric spread by those in this thread  who are determined to police other people's teams.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Just yesterday I did some strikes after a while not doing them. Granted it was weekend prime time, EU. There were up to 10 listings in lfg; standard 2 - 4 listings for All (-CW, - FS) with KP, SW-FR-Kodan poping up all the time and filling instantly, occasional CW and FS but also All without KP or just Woj or Boneskinner without KP. 

So basically you had listings for every taste and skill / KP lvl.

Which ultimately means little as you can have strikes going on constantly and still only have less than 20% of the game's playerbase actually doing them. Making them not worth supporting like what happened to raids.

[LucianDK.8615]

On 1/22/2022 at 10:02 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Which ultimately means little as you can have strikes going on constantly and still only have less than 20% of the game's playerbase actually doing them. Making them not worth supporting like what happened to raids.

 

Cant agree with that, since Anet is expanding the strike concept in EoD, clearly it has more partipiation than raids.

[Wintermute.5408]

Nothing is stopping Anet from cranking up the rewards in strikes (let's be honest, raid rewards are kitten), and tuning encounters to raidlevels of difficulty. If that happens, strikes will have a massive advantage of not locking bosses behind one another. Which, IMHO, is something raids should evolve into at some point too. Dhuum or Q1 gating is absolutely brutal for training runs.

As for new fractals... you know, after Oasis, Sanqua, Sirens reef and, in particular, the kittening Deepstone - I'm lowkey glad they stopped making new ones. Last good fractal was Nightmare.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[DarcShriek.5829]

Why waste time doing raids/fractals when you could be doing strikes?  See what I did there?  I showed a different perspective to the issue so that you would know not everyone thinks like you.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I don't do Raids or Fractals, but I do do Strikes.  Looking forward to what End of Dragons has to offer.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 1/22/2022 at 5:30 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

The term PvE itself is about 20 years old itself, even predating GW1 to my understanding.

It's probably older than that. Although, to be honest, it wasn't all that popular initially. Originally the clasification for MUDs/early MMORPGs was more around it having "PK" (Player Killing) or being "non-PK".

[Obtena.7952]

Seems to me the more relevant and pressing question is this:

Why waste time doing 'old Raid/Fractals' while you could be doing new Strikes?

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Bakeneko.5826]

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Seems to me the more relevant and pressing question is this:

Why waste time doing 'old Raid/Fractals' while you could be doing new Strikes?

I think both questions are erroneous. Raids did not reach popularity anet expected them to, or needed for that matter, to warrant further development. Fractals see daily play and we get one or two per year on avg. I am still confused, why not embrace fractals fully, create 5th tier for 10 players squads with short trash run and boss, on the level of raids, at the end and just focus on fractals as endgame content covering for 5 men up to tier 4, and for 10 men in T5.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

I would prefer that they add more Adventures (or even things similar to Dragon Response Missions) where you can select/customize your allies (henchmen).

That said, Raids were popular for a time but eventually it becomes gated off because veterans only want to play with veterans. In addition, you seldomly see groups running without using discord so it's extra steps that people may not be comfortable with.

Fractals are popular because you don't even need to communicate throughout them (99% of the time), accessible to anyone over time (up to T4s). Getting into CM is tricky nowadays due to people demanding DwD (even for 99+98CM weirdly) but those are about 1/3 of the entire Fractal End Game.

Strikes are accessible to anyone who has unlocked Ice Brood Saga. You don't need Ascended gear (Need it for T2+ Fractals; not "needed" for Raids but desired), you don't need specific builds (for most roles and some strikes; Ice Golem), they take minimal coordination (Ice Golen, Fraenier, Bears), and offer decent rewards for the time spent. The strikes also have the "feeling" of a world boss just with more mechanics which is appealing for people.

Strikes are just easier for ANet to build, implement, and tweak. Adding the new challenge settings in EoD allows them to cater strikes towards the more Raid-focused people.

[anbujackson.9564]

What content is the best depends on ones preferences. Im not a fan of the strike missions because they are either too easy (lile seriously killing bosses solo or duo??) or they are massively dumped down by the unbalanced performance of the classes. Im not even bothering to name any to avoid uselsss discussion. The point is that class balance (or the ultimate lack of it) destroys any meaningful PvE content. It doenst matter if you add new fractal cms, raids or strike cms on the level of raid bosses (will the normal mode be a faceroll then?) because the overall power of classes will just destroy any challenging ideas. 

Anet might as well not design any endgame content at all before they fixed the balance. Imagine spending hours, days, weeks, months as a dev on new instances just to see the players steamroll through it like its nothing and complain right after how its way too easy/there is not enough content/its kitten. Pretty disencouraging if you ask me.

Edited January 25, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[LucianDK.8615]

42 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

What content is the best depends on ones preferences. Im not a fan of the strike missions because they are either too easy (lile seriously killing bosses solo or duo??) or they are massively dumped down by the unbalanced performance of the classes. Im not even bothering to name any to avoid uselsss discussion. The point is that class balance (or the ultimate lack of it) destroys any meaningful PvE content. It doenst matter if you add new fractal cms, raids or strike cms on the level of raid bosses (will the normal mode be a faceroll then?) because the overall power of classes will just destroy any challenging ideas. 

Anet might as well not design any endgame content at all before they fixed the balance. Imagine spending hours, days, weeks, months as a dev on new instances just to see the players steamroll through it like its nothing and complain right after how its way too easy/there is not enough content/its kitten. Pretty disencouraging if you ask me.

Well difficulty settings for the upcomming strikes should help at lot with that.

[anbujackson.9564]

2 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Well difficulty settings for the upcomming strikes should help at lot with that.

Specs and damage in general are way overtuned at the moment.

Lets say they consider the balance right now. Then the strikes would be the hardest content in the game and future balance changes just evolve around them. This means that the old content gets even more obsolete. 

I mean bosses die in (way) less than 5 minutes (except stuff like the end bosses maybe in raids but thats just because of phases). Mechanics ignored all around. Not a very good starting ground in my opinion.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

56 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Specs and damage in general are way overtuned at the moment.

It would say "Specs and damage in general are way overtuned for certain professions at the moment"

I'm not saying that a Warrior (Power), Elementalist (Hybrid), and Necromancer (Condi) should be able to hit the exact same numbers. But comparing them:

• Warrior/Necromancer - Most CC/support
• Elementalist/Necromancer - Most DPS
• Necromancer - Most survivability

Certain professions can "do it all" (I'm trying to get away from my whipping boy Guardian) and they simply do everything with 1 build so much better than any other professions can do 1 thing with a build specifically geared that it really makes the balance off kilter.

On the subject of old content becoming obsolete, have you ever tried running a Fractal composition in the old Dungeons? You see people heavily struggling with the paths unless they know them inside and out. The mentality of "just run past them" barely works there as people will get picked off and won't spawn near they group. It doesn't really make it obsolete--if anything the newer content makes people completely unprepared for the older harder stuff.

But overall I agree with your points