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Remove Boons or WvW WILL die..


Gobcrack.9320

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25 minutes ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

There's no community in this game because it's stagnant and stale from the game design all the way to the actual game updates. No YouTuber is relevant from your scene, no Twitch person is relevant from your scene, to top it all off your own game dev doesn't even support or sponsor any of the community members either. 

That doesn't answer my question. In a way, I get what you are saying but I'm not a big stream person so I have no point of reference. Has any Gw2 stream hit 100k viewers ever? Pick Gw2s healthiest year, how does it compare then to its competitors? 

Anyway, you aren't wrong in stating the game mode is stagnant and stale. It's also suffering under a lot of questionable changes throughout PoF. But unless I'm misunderstanding the point of this post, removing boons is asking for a different game. So that's dumb. There is about to be 36 classes and all the different builds they can be, the game mode needs dedicated people to balance it. Not just the 1 or 2 people that do is as part of their job. 

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34 minutes ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

We're in 2022 buddy, if you want you can go read your IGN articles from 2003 to make up your mind but most people are going to be on Twitch/YouTube as primary platforms to determine if a game is dead or not, and GW2 has by far the lowest social media presence out of any major MMO.

 

The outcome is what we have now, a declining PvE scene with an already declined PvP scene. 

 

 

That's funny, GW2 isn't even mentioned in topics of games people are excited to play in general not to even mention MMOs where it gets lumped in with ESO for being one of those niche MMOs that you really need to be a special type of gamer to enjoy enough to make it your main game. 

 

Most people aren't going to put up with years of radio silence from their Devs who never introduce or implement what the community wants, the only community ArenaNet caters to are the cash shop buyers because those are the people who future content will be designed for and it shows due to lack of support and resources go into things like PvP. 

Even Fractals are abandoned and Strikes aren't updated, the whole game has been on maintenance mode for over a year now. 

You're being kind of dense so I'll leave at this. I get what you're trying to say. I agree with most of your complaints, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people are actually playing this game even if they're not watching a handful of streamers play it. As it turns out, most people actually will put up with years of radio silence from the devs. It is what it is. 

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1 hour ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

We're in 2022 buddy, if you want you can go read your IGN articles from 2003 to make up your mind but most people are going to be on Twitch/YouTube as primary platforms to determine if a game is dead or not, and GW2 has by far the lowest social media presence out of any major MMO.

 

The outcome is what we have now, a declining PvE scene with an already declined PvP scene.  

'Declining' based on what?

Also, I'm not sure if you were born in 2003, but we weren't reading IGN articles back then, we were reading GamePro magazines...

Besides, it's a weak troll attempt anyway you cut it.  Obviously the take on WvW wasn't working so we switched topics to 'lulz this game is dead', and that isn't working either.  It's obvious the content has slowed a lot in the past two years, but that's mostly due to company shakeups and the pandemic (incase you missed it).  

As a slight aside, I have no idea why but it seems the most abrasive people are attached to Thief avatars >_<.  

Anyway, come back in six months after EoD and make your 'lulz this game is dead' topics.  Or just go on Twitter and ratio people...whatever makes you happy.  

Edited by Gotejjeken.1267
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On 1/23/2022 at 4:05 AM, Rysdude.3824 said:

I just returned and play during off hours on EU...I disagree, roaming is hardly dead. I see many, many players.

I don't because theyre're all perma stealth thieves. 

 

On 1/23/2022 at 9:07 AM, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

We need a follow up to the february patch, now nerfs some boons, stuff like Protection/Resolution get's reduced to 20% or 25% damage reduction, take a look at stability, etc.

Another things that could happen is another pass at CC skills, yeah they should not deal a lot of damage, but doing 10 damage is way to low lol.
Something like 1000 or 1500 damage on a crit is enough to make them more usefull damage wise, without making them way to powerfull.

It's weird how it's unfair if CC does damage but CC breaks can do 5 different things with HALF the cd of most CC and that's perfectly fine.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Protect_Me!"

 

Defensively biased balance is boring rpg pvp.

Edited by Shiyo.3578
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11 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

It's weird how it's unfair if CC does damage but CC breaks can do 5 different things with HALF the cd of most CC and that's perfectly fine.

The CC nerf was lazy af. I totally agree with the idea but it shouldn't have been a blanket nerf across the board. Some CC skills are mostly worthless, Warrior/Guardian hammers should have damage at least imo. 

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I don't think that boons should be removed completely but how effective they are. Back in the core days it took 2 staff guards + fire combo blasts to get 25 might stacks, swiftness spam was needed to move around nowadays those are the "standard". What the game has turned to is boons being too easily accessible across all classes. 

Its to a point where combo fields aren't even as relevant anymore compared to what it was back then.

Another issue is the damage crunch in the infamous Feb patch. This caused defensive boons like protection to be increasingly stronger. With everyone doing less damage and that boon being untouched with such easy accessibility and uptime, people are essentially hitting like wet noodles. This is also paired by the fact that they keep nerfing the amount of boons that can be stripped or converted. You are able to access a boon faster then a boon strip or corrupt.

This also made classes like Necros significantly tankier and statlines like trailblazers or celestial much stronger. Before the Feb patch it wasn't uncommon for a Deadeye to one shot a full trailblazer user.

True power creep isn't the e-spec mechanics but how easily those e-specs are able to access these boons. Boons is the real powercreep. Most classes these days can stack 25 might like its nothing.

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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On 2/1/2022 at 9:27 PM, obastable.5231 said:

This isn't a boon ball meta

Followed up by 

On 2/1/2022 at 9:27 PM, obastable.5231 said:

it's a boon rip meta. Sigil of Absorption + chrono shield 5 = no target cap stun proccing a sigil that steals 3 boons per target on interrupt  -- with no internal cooldown

And why do you think that is ?

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1 hour ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

" Before the Feb patch it wasn't uncommon for a Deadeye to one shot a full trailblazer user. "

And this is fun for who exactly?

This is called people barking up the wrong tree. Damage wasn't the problem it was being able to access boons and 25 might stacks alone. You can be a full bunker build with 25 might stacks you will do high damage. 

Now people complain about condi builds being too strong because of TB or Celestial, well jeez I wonder why?

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9 hours ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Followed up by 

And why do you think that is ?


Follow the trail of buffs and nerfs from launch to now. Everything exists as a response to something, in an attempt to create a balance of gameplay. 

Boon application exists to counter power creep, along with healing specs, damage negation, and barrier. Boon rip exists to counter boon application & create opportunities for CC and dps to succeed. 

If this were a boon ball meta, you would be able to stack all the boons and boon reapplication and succeed. Which is not how it works - if you don't have boon rip you won't succeed at anything except dying slightly more slowly.

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On 1/25/2022 at 6:38 AM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

don't play ranger theif 

 

this mindset is so insane i cant even describe it in words. revenant and guardian have meta roles in every single facet of the game, from large scale to small scale to spvp to raids to fractals to anything else. try to justify the exclusion of an entire class from a certain game mode, because the class is good at a different game mode, is pure insanity.

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i mean u can play it, just not around primetime or anytime there's a bigger than 15ish group on any side. u just will rather hinder your "team" bc once a group is up, reflects and heals and cleanses are up - normally.

 

the amount of rangers that pump their full load into some reflect, and thieves that just POP (ded in 1 hit) i saw during zergsized cloudfights lately just confirm that.

 

ranger and thieves are even meta, just only for gvg size (15v15 arena)

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On 2/5/2022 at 7:35 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

(snip)

Another issue is the damage crunch in the infamous Feb patch. This caused defensive boons like protection to be increasingly stronger. With everyone doing less damage and that boon being untouched with such easy accessibility and uptime, people are essentially hitting like wet noodles. This is also paired by the fact that they keep nerfing the amount of boons that can be stripped or converted. You are able to access a boon faster then a boon strip or corrupt.

(snip)

 

remove or reduce toughness from minstrells and add crit chance :P  that would would help withthe tankiness.

:D kek

Edited by Aeolus.3615
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7 hours ago, Donut.6914 said:

 

this mindset is so insane i cant even describe it in words. revenant and guardian have meta roles in every single facet of the game, from large scale to small scale to spvp to raids to fractals to anything else. try to justify the exclusion of an entire class from a certain game mode, because the class is good at a different game mode, is pure insanity.

But Rangers and Thieve have "meta" builds in WvW, both large and small scale, including GvGs. They are just less wanted currently but still very viable. 

Under 30, I'm not going to have more then 2 rangers if we are running them. And I'm not giving those ranger spots to pugs and they won't be running pick/roaming builds. 

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On 2/5/2022 at 7:00 AM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Defensively biased balance is boring rpg pvp.

Therein lies the folly of this thread and the other anti-support threads.

  • Overbearing crowd-control and (ranged-) damage superiority simply turns people into cowards.
  • High-stakes and high-risk offensive, generally, does not make people offensive.
  • It makes the tactics cautious, defensive, and that is illustrated by the defensive nature of clouds, pirateships and ppt.
  • That is the main argument against it. I wrote at length about it a page back.

Ed. I'll happily muse about it again to see if something sticks:

The fact remain that things like stability and protection is more or less needed to enable melee roles. Even today there are few (if any) real melee damage roles at larger scale. Melee roles are needed to define ranged roles and distinguish them further. It was the frontline's tank and support that enabled the backline to get screened and go full damage in vanilla. Ranged roles are needed to enable focus roles. The more you take these things away the more you create a situation of just vaguely allround ranged roles and support for them at the expense of melee and focus.

The Rev almost single handedly caused this to fall apart when it first came out and it has not recovered even though it is perfectly possible to do again from a balance perspective. It doesn't matter if you talk about taking away stability or taking away Minstrels, it has the same result: It will further discourage people from taking the risk to push into opponents. It is the same on smaller scales with most popular smaller scale builds built around opportune engagement and disengagement with little commitment. Many times when people argue for more ways to stick opposing players they do it from the least commitant builds, not really asking for more opportunities for opponents.

A bit more difficult to understand: It also overlooks that if you take away commitant tactics there will be more players engaging in the noncommitant stuff (ie., if you argue for rendering support unable to support melee as a Thief or Ranger, you may see that support transition into things that are better against you, or do whatever you do, but better). Most players dislike chasing Thiefs and most Thiefs dislike Rangers, for example. I don't think solo-ish people want hostile coordinated groups of supported focus to be common as much as they think that they do.

With that, it seems to me, that they are more concerned with taking away the organisation and coordination of other players than they are interested in improving opportunities for focus roles and related classes. None of these attempts are going to achieve that. Like, if you want focus teams to come back (whether you think that is possible or not with current balance) that is fine. However, don't make the mistake of assuming that an organised focus team wouldn't bully casual solo clouders the way some tanky support can.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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On 2/1/2022 at 8:58 PM, Zikory.6871 said:

What's the highest viewers any Guild Wars 2 content has ever gotten? 

 

What's the highest any WvW content has ever had? 

This was overlooked so far, it seems.

One of GW2's most viewed Twitch events was the TA vs. Agg GvG on june 29-30, 2014 (don't qoute me on this, but I think it surpassed 2k viewers, the vod used to be on twitch/chemsorly but it is no longer available and while it is saved on Youtube it doesn't show numbers and I'm not listening through 1.5hrs of it to hear if they mention views).

The amusing thing is of course that it was about guilds, about boons and everything else that we see people complain about here.

Tangent 1

It was also in spite of all issues already widely known then that we still suffer today (like matchup, location and tool issues that plague event creation). That is an aside, but it is interesting since it may better suggest what may contribute to a feeling of stagnance, decline or lack of events and their viewership.

Tangent 2

It serves yet another good example of how things are usually the direct opposite of whatever popular belief purported here or among self-declared majorities (like when players suggests that WvW makes up only a fraction minority of the active playerbase, though whatever limited data we have or commentary from the developers does not support such claims).

Tangent 3

Another funny aside to all of this is that Teapot, who now possibly has surpassed WP to be the game's largest streamer or creator, started out as primarily a WvW streamer but had to diversify since the devs gave him nothing to talk about (as I remember it; you'd have to talk to someone who knows it better than me if you want some more solid claims of that). I remember it comming up elsewhere recently, so I figured I'd just rehash it here since people assume there is no creator or viewership interest in WvW when that too perhaps has more to do with the lack of event-creation tools or just an overall lack of tools stemming from a lack of attention.

Tangent 4

Sticking with that topic, it is also often disregarded how much overlap there is between the sPvP and WvW groups despite their technical separation and development issues. It is perhaps somewhat known that Sind used to play WvW with TA but there are plenty of more examples from Obindo to Crann or many of the teams that have recently played tournaments from the Worms to the Sins to the Procreators. Some of that may be attributed to decline in some regard but it doesn't make the statement less true. Maybe that is pushing things a bit off the tracks, but it is not uncommon to see people say that there is skill in sPvP that is lacking from WvW in topics like these (or skill among solo players not present in groups).

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
I so wish the spoiler function kept existing in edits
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4 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Coming from the moaning thread about Spinal Shivers, I say make more skills and traits centered on corrupting or removing boons.

Isn't that just a good example of that things are decently balanced though? I had not bothered reading that thread before (because there are only so many whine threads one can keep up with) but thanks to your post I dipped into it. In that I saw the good post that Shroud made on the first page where he lists numbers and talks circumstances.

On the forums these days we have people taking sides where they complain about too little damage and too much damage at the same time. What they have in common is that neither talk about figures or can relate examples to any sensible discussion. When someone does that, like Shroud did, it gives a rather good general idea of what the balance sits between and it supports all these arguments some of us (ie., me) make about what is possible or that potential should guide discussion.

So in that thread you have a good post from Shroud listing the things done and you have a bad post from Junkpile replying that those things can not be done against a "boonball" while overlooking that he is comparing something done by 1 player to something done by 5 players. What happens when both things are done by 5 players and both things are done with some degree of organisation and coordination? Shroud's arguments will continue to hold up.

I can be longwinded (this thread is evident of that) but some of the things I try to guide others towards considering is relatively simple in general: Like if one player can achieve something like what is listed in that thread, people must be able to consider what five players doing the same thing could possibly achieve. Being able to move the same idea between different contexts like that allows people to understand quite alot of topics that talks about balance and what people actually can do in this game. Or that a multiplayer game is built to be like this and balanced like this. Skills are built to hit 5 players, boons are built to spread to 5 players and so on. That's on purpose and for us to use.

If we can understand what 1 player can do against 5 players we can understand what 1 party can do against 5 parties. If we understand what 1 role can do in a 15-man group we can understand what 3-4 of that role can do in a 50-man group. If we understand that, we can understand the concept of meta or why classes are put into certain parties and what classes are capable of doing, what players are capable of doing and how that relates to balance (like recognising that cold hard balance always assumes 1:1, but that you can extrapolate that to an understanding of eg., 1:5 when discussing the difficulty or potential of doing something). So we have A) balance and B) possibility of doing things.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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14 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Aside from, you know, opening up literally every other build that doesn't abuse them lol.

just about every build uses boons. i'm not sure what you mean by abuse, i'm guessing its in reference to things like scrapper and guardian, which imo it would make more sense to nerf specific outliers then nerf everything in the game. imo a buff to some boon strips would be good.

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On 1/23/2022 at 7:21 AM, Gobcrack.9320 said:

Shorten Boon Durations in WvW gameplay
Remove problematic Boons that are being abused
Nerf Boon-Strip builds to compensate for Boon nerfs to freshen Necro meta

 

10 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Aside from, you know, opening up literally every other build that doesn't abuse them lol.

 

10 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

just about every build uses boons. i'm not sure what you mean by abuse, i'm guessing its in reference to things like scrapper and guardian, which imo it would make more sense to nerf specific outliers then nerf everything in the game. imo a buff to some boon strips would be good.

These last two posts brings up another good topic (I'm throwing in the OP for comparison). What people mean is pretty important when they say blanket things.

If you want to shorten boon durations you're not really adressing the boon spam and you're unlikely to get many players onboard. If you want to remove certain boons, you want to fundamentally change the game, you're unlikely to get players onboard and you're not really defining what boons you want to remove or what you hope to do. If people just say "nerf boons" then that will be read as "buff crowd-control" or "buff damage": something the game really does not need and tends to be said very naively, as I've discussed above.

If instead someone would propose to further refine purity of purpose on skills (and remove passive boon clutter from attacks and such), increase cooldowns (so they're more about prestacking and fire-once, rip once) and then match the rarity of boon-rips and certain crowd-control conditions (to reduce spam but maintain a balance and restore more of the vanilla way of things), then I think you would have most players on board with you. I don't think I've seen anyone who argues for the spam. People mainly argue against ruining damage- or control balances when people suggest things that they don't understand the results of and do not even discuss the goals or numbers of.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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